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top five 4-3 olbs?
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SHONUFF


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kj Wright has got to be up there, the guy is so damn versitile..
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedGreenShow wrote:
Lavonte David
Vontaze Burfict
Thomas Davis
Von Miller
Deandre Levy
Alec Olgetree
The top 4 are pretty locked in. Ogletree makes too many dumb mistakes to be in their over KJ Wright. Not sure about Levy vs. Wright
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Ketchup


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly don't get Von Miller being on these lists. Sure he's labeled a 43 OLB but he's a pass rushing LB that happens to play in a 43. Miller being up there is definitely not in the spirit of a traditional 43 OLB. Much like calling Jimmy Graham a TE.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketchup wrote:
Honestly don't get Von Miller being on these lists. Sure he's labeled a 43 OLB but he's a pass rushing LB that happens to play in a 43. Miller being up there is definitely not in the spirit of a traditional 43 OLB. Much like calling Jimmy Graham a TE.

This is wrong. Von pass rushes a lot but not nearly to the extreme of 3-4 OLB's or 4-3 DE's (about 80-100 snaps less per last 2 years). He covers TE's and drops back in coverage much more than you are giving him credit for. And much more than Jimmy Graham is asked to play as a TE.

What really should be said about this particular argument is that Denver runs their Nickel package more than 60% of the time. In that package, why would you not want the best pass rusher in the NFL to rush the QB?
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Ketchup wrote:
Honestly don't get Von Miller being on these lists. Sure he's labeled a 43 OLB but he's a pass rushing LB that happens to play in a 43. Miller being up there is definitely not in the spirit of a traditional 43 OLB. Much like calling Jimmy Graham a TE.

This is wrong. Von pass rushes a lot but not nearly to the extreme of 3-4 OLB's or 4-3 DE's (about 80-100 snaps less per last 2 years). He covers TE's and drops back in coverage much more than you are giving him credit for. And much more than Jimmy Graham is asked to play as a TE.

What really should be said about this particular argument is that Denver runs their Nickel package more than 60% of the time. In that package, why would you not want the best pass rusher in the NFL to rush the QB?


The numbers don't really come close to backing that up though.

This year, for instances, Miller played 331 passing downs. He rushed the passer on 256 of those, or 77% (to avoid the possible question, last year it was 76%, so no change really.) The leader in sacks from 4-3 OLB was Lavonte David, who rushed the passer 17% of the time. The leader in pressures (aside from Miller) was Phillip Wheeler, who rushed 21% of the time. Honestly, i can't find another 4-3 OLB even CLOSE to Miller's pass rush percentage.

I can, however, find plenty of 3-4 OLBs. Justin Houston rushed 77% of the time (a smaller 77% than Miller, actually.) Lamarr Woodley rushed 67% of the time. Ahmad Brooks is at 78%. Yeah, he rushes a bit less than guys like Hali or Mathis, who are in the low to mid 80s, but they're infamously one dimensional guys.

It isn't a criticism, you shouldn't take it that way. It's just saying his role is much more comparable to that of a versatile 3-4 OLB than it is to a 4-3 OLB who just pass rushes a sizable amount. Effectively, the primary difference between Miller and a Houston or a Mathews or a Brooks is that the guys across from the 3-4 OLB are standing up, while the guy across from Miller is down. All Denver has to do is make Robert Ayers stand up, and Miller is a 3-4 OLB. They wouldn't need to change anything else in his role.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Ketchup wrote:
Honestly don't get Von Miller being on these lists. Sure he's labeled a 43 OLB but he's a pass rushing LB that happens to play in a 43. Miller being up there is definitely not in the spirit of a traditional 43 OLB. Much like calling Jimmy Graham a TE.

This is wrong. Von pass rushes a lot but not nearly to the extreme of 3-4 OLB's or 4-3 DE's (about 80-100 snaps less per last 2 years). He covers TE's and drops back in coverage much more than you are giving him credit for. And much more than Jimmy Graham is asked to play as a TE.

What really should be said about this particular argument is that Denver runs their Nickel package more than 60% of the time. In that package, why would you not want the best pass rusher in the NFL to rush the QB?


The numbers don't really come close to backing that up though.

This year, for instances, Miller played 331 passing downs. He rushed the passer on 256 of those, or 77% (to avoid the possible question, last year it was 76%, so no change really.) The leader in sacks from 4-3 OLB was Lavonte David, who rushed the passer 17% of the time. The leader in pressures (aside from Miller) was Phillip Wheeler, who rushed 21% of the time. Honestly, i can't find another 4-3 OLB even CLOSE to Miller's pass rush percentage.

I can, however, find plenty of 3-4 OLBs. Justin Houston rushed 77% of the time (a smaller 77% than Miller, actually.) Lamarr Woodley rushed 67% of the time. Ahmad Brooks is at 78%. Yeah, he rushes a bit less than guys like Hali or Mathis, who are in the low to mid 80s, but they're infamously one dimensional guys.

It isn't a criticism, you shouldn't take it that way. It's just saying his role is much more comparable to that of a versatile 3-4 OLB than it is to a 4-3 OLB who just pass rushes a sizable amount. Effectively, the primary difference between Miller and a Houston or a Mathews or a Brooks is that the guys across from the 3-4 OLB are standing up, while the guy across from Miller is down. All Denver has to do is make Robert Ayers stand up, and Miller is a 3-4 OLB. They wouldn't need to change anything else in his role.

You misread what I wrote. He is not comparable in pass rush numbers to 4-3 DE's and 3-4 OLB's than only rush the passer.

You wouldnt say any of those guys arent all-around guys right? Thats my point. Von is very easily an all-around LBer that happens to dominate in pass-rush, so the Broncos utilize him there. That should not be used as a detriment to playing OLB though. He's proved to be more than capable of playing better and offering more than any other OLB.
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Ketchup


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Ketchup wrote:
Honestly don't get Von Miller being on these lists. Sure he's labeled a 43 OLB but he's a pass rushing LB that happens to play in a 43. Miller being up there is definitely not in the spirit of a traditional 43 OLB. Much like calling Jimmy Graham a TE.

This is wrong. Von pass rushes a lot but not nearly to the extreme of 3-4 OLB's or 4-3 DE's (about 80-100 snaps less per last 2 years). He covers TE's and drops back in coverage much more than you are giving him credit for. And much more than Jimmy Graham is asked to play as a TE.

What really should be said about this particular argument is that Denver runs their Nickel package more than 60% of the time. In that package, why would you not want the best pass rusher in the NFL to rush the QB?


The numbers don't really come close to backing that up though.

This year, for instances, Miller played 331 passing downs. He rushed the passer on 256 of those, or 77% (to avoid the possible question, last year it was 76%, so no change really.) The leader in sacks from 4-3 OLB was Lavonte David, who rushed the passer 17% of the time. The leader in pressures (aside from Miller) was Phillip Wheeler, who rushed 21% of the time. Honestly, i can't find another 4-3 OLB even CLOSE to Miller's pass rush percentage.

I can, however, find plenty of 3-4 OLBs. Justin Houston rushed 77% of the time (a smaller 77% than Miller, actually.) Lamarr Woodley rushed 67% of the time. Ahmad Brooks is at 78%. Yeah, he rushes a bit less than guys like Hali or Mathis, who are in the low to mid 80s, but they're infamously one dimensional guys.

It isn't a criticism, you shouldn't take it that way. It's just saying his role is much more comparable to that of a versatile 3-4 OLB than it is to a 4-3 OLB who just pass rushes a sizable amount. Effectively, the primary difference between Miller and a Houston or a Mathews or a Brooks is that the guys across from the 3-4 OLB are standing up, while the guy across from Miller is down. All Denver has to do is make Robert Ayers stand up, and Miller is a 3-4 OLB. They wouldn't need to change anything else in his role.

You misread what I wrote. He is not comparable in pass rush numbers to 4-3 DE's and 3-4 OLB's than only rush the passer.

You wouldnt say any of those guys arent all-around guys right? Thats my point. Von is very easily an all-around LBer that happens to dominate in pass-rush, so the Broncos utilize him there. That should not be used as a detriment to playing OLB though. He's proved to be more than capable of playing better and offering more than any other OLB.
I don't think you quite are understanding what I was trying to say. All I'm saying is that his main priority is pass rushing. Of course it is because he's elite at doing so. Not a knock on anyone. He's simply not used as a traditional 43 OLB so why compare him or rank him with guys like David, Davis and Burfict? Miller is a completely different kind of player then those guys. That's all I'm saying.
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:

You misread what I wrote. He is not comparable in pass rush numbers to 4-3 DE's and 3-4 OLB's than only rush the passer.

You wouldnt say any of those guys arent all-around guys right? Thats my point. Von is very easily an all-around LBer that happens to dominate in pass-rush, so the Broncos utilize him there. That should not be used as a detriment to playing OLB though. He's proved to be more than capable of playing better and offering more than any other OLB.


No one is saying he is one that only rushes the passer. That would just be ignorant. But the fact still remains, he is far more comparable to 3-4 OLBs than he is to 4-3 ones. That does not mean he is not versatile, that's just a statement regarding his role. This isn't about versatility, it's about positional role, and his is not that of a 4-3 OLB.

I don't know what you think you read from either of us that makes you think anyone is using it as a detriment.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ketchup wrote:
JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Jakuvious wrote:
JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Ketchup wrote:
Honestly don't get Von Miller being on these lists. Sure he's labeled a 43 OLB but he's a pass rushing LB that happens to play in a 43. Miller being up there is definitely not in the spirit of a traditional 43 OLB. Much like calling Jimmy Graham a TE.

This is wrong. Von pass rushes a lot but not nearly to the extreme of 3-4 OLB's or 4-3 DE's (about 80-100 snaps less per last 2 years). He covers TE's and drops back in coverage much more than you are giving him credit for. And much more than Jimmy Graham is asked to play as a TE.

What really should be said about this particular argument is that Denver runs their Nickel package more than 60% of the time. In that package, why would you not want the best pass rusher in the NFL to rush the QB?


The numbers don't really come close to backing that up though.

This year, for instances, Miller played 331 passing downs. He rushed the passer on 256 of those, or 77% (to avoid the possible question, last year it was 76%, so no change really.) The leader in sacks from 4-3 OLB was Lavonte David, who rushed the passer 17% of the time. The leader in pressures (aside from Miller) was Phillip Wheeler, who rushed 21% of the time. Honestly, i can't find another 4-3 OLB even CLOSE to Miller's pass rush percentage.

I can, however, find plenty of 3-4 OLBs. Justin Houston rushed 77% of the time (a smaller 77% than Miller, actually.) Lamarr Woodley rushed 67% of the time. Ahmad Brooks is at 78%. Yeah, he rushes a bit less than guys like Hali or Mathis, who are in the low to mid 80s, but they're infamously one dimensional guys.

It isn't a criticism, you shouldn't take it that way. It's just saying his role is much more comparable to that of a versatile 3-4 OLB than it is to a 4-3 OLB who just pass rushes a sizable amount. Effectively, the primary difference between Miller and a Houston or a Mathews or a Brooks is that the guys across from the 3-4 OLB are standing up, while the guy across from Miller is down. All Denver has to do is make Robert Ayers stand up, and Miller is a 3-4 OLB. They wouldn't need to change anything else in his role.

You misread what I wrote. He is not comparable in pass rush numbers to 4-3 DE's and 3-4 OLB's than only rush the passer.

You wouldnt say any of those guys arent all-around guys right? Thats my point. Von is very easily an all-around LBer that happens to dominate in pass-rush, so the Broncos utilize him there. That should not be used as a detriment to playing OLB though. He's proved to be more than capable of playing better and offering more than any other OLB.
I don't think you quite are understanding what I was trying to say. All I'm saying is that his main priority is pass rushing. Of course it is because he's elite at doing so. Not a knock on anyone. He's simply not used as a traditional 43 OLB so why compare him or rank him with guys like David, Davis and Burfict? Miller is a completely different kind of player then those guys. That's all I'm saying.

Traditional positions just arent prevalent in the NFL today. Offenses and defenses are playing so many situational packages that it becomes impossible to compare such players/positions like "apples to apples".

For example, should Giovani Bernard not be evaluated with other RB's even though he caught as many passes as Dwayne Bowe? He's used in the passing game almost as much as he was asked to run the football. What about how the Saints used Kenny Vaccaro this year? He's a safety but they used him at 6 defensive positions. Should he not be a safety?

My point is simple, just because a player does something unorthodox from the traditional position they play, doesnt mean they shouldnt be evaluated alongside other players at that position. Dont over-think it. If Von Miller wasnt an elite pass rusher he'd be an elite 4-3 "traditional" OLB too. He's proven he can hold up better than anyone (at the position) in the run game and he can drop into coverage or cover TE's well.
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:

For example, should Giovani Bernard not be evaluated with other RB's even though he caught as many passes as Dwayne Bowe? He's used in the passing game almost as much as he was asked to run the football. What about how the Saints used Kenny Vaccaro this year? He's a safety but they used him at 6 defensive positions. Should he not be a safety?

My point is simple, just because a player does something unorthodox from the traditional position they play, doesnt mean they shouldnt be evaluated alongside other players at that position. Dont over-think it. If Von Miller wasnt an elite pass rusher he'd be an elite 4-3 "traditional" OLB too. He's proven he can hold up better than anyone (at the position) in the run game and he can drop into coverage or cover TE's well.


It's a matter of providing the MOST accurate distinction. Bernard is clearly far more a RB than a WR. He lines up there, he ran the ball more than probably any WR in NFL history. That's an absolutely atrocious comparison.

Miller plays like a 3-4 OLB. He is utilized like a 3-4 OLB. That's not the same as a RB playing RB that is just used more in passing downs. That's a pretty common thing in the NFL for backups or rotations.
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JerseysFinest27


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jakuvious wrote:
JerseysFinest27 wrote:

For example, should Giovani Bernard not be evaluated with other RB's even though he caught as many passes as Dwayne Bowe? He's used in the passing game almost as much as he was asked to run the football. What about how the Saints used Kenny Vaccaro this year? He's a safety but they used him at 6 defensive positions. Should he not be a safety?

My point is simple, just because a player does something unorthodox from the traditional position they play, doesnt mean they shouldnt be evaluated alongside other players at that position. Dont over-think it. If Von Miller wasnt an elite pass rusher he'd be an elite 4-3 "traditional" OLB too. He's proven he can hold up better than anyone (at the position) in the run game and he can drop into coverage or cover TE's well.


It's a matter of providing the MOST accurate distinction. Bernard is clearly far more a RB than a WR. He lines up there, he ran the ball more than probably any WR in NFL history. That's an absolutely atrocious comparison.

Miller plays like a 3-4 OLB. He is utilized like a 3-4 OLB. That's not the same as a RB playing RB that is just used more in passing downs. That's a pretty common thing in the NFL for backups or rotations.

You clearly dont get it and are contradicting yourself. Miller is not a SLB because he pass rushes 70% of the time but Gio Bernard is a running back even though he runs routes almost 60% of the time? Sure thats not the best analogy but the point is still made. What about Kenny Vaccaro? Is he a S/CB/LB? Whatever though, I'm done arguing this. Miller is a 4-3 OLB hes not a 3-4 OLB.

It doesnt matter though. The point is simple. Von Miller is a OLB in a 4-3, and if he wasnt the best outside rusher in the NFL, he'd be the best SLB. Quit arguing semantics and depreciating a players value.
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Jakuvious


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JerseysFinest27 wrote:

You clearly dont get it and are contradicting yourself. Miller is not a SLB because he pass rushes 70% of the time but Gio Bernard is a running back even though he runs routes almost 60% of the time? Sure thats not the best analogy but the point is still made. What about Kenny Vaccaro? Is he a S/CB/LB? Whatever though, I'm done arguing this. Miller is a 4-3 OLB hes not a 3-4 OLB.

It doesnt matter though. The point is simple. Von Miller is a OLB in a 4-3, and if he wasnt the best outside rusher in the NFL, he'd be the best SLB. Quit arguing semantics and depreciating a players value.


You're still completely missing the point here. It has absolutely nothing to do with value, it is purely about describing and defining role for the sake of comparison. Heck, I'd argue a 3-4 OLB is typically more crucial to defensive success than a 4-3 OLB, so if anything, it is increasing his value. But the point remains, that's not what it's about, and you continuing to state that it is doesn't change that fact. It's no knock to Miller whatsoever.

You're still missing the point with Bernard. First of all, all those routes were out of the backfield. You're not going to call him anything but some kind of back in the first place based on that alone. Second, it isn't 60%. It's right about 50%, and you'll find plenty of other backs with a similar responsibility around the league. There is a precedent for that. Also, Miller rushes 77% of the time. So yeah, if you lie and say it is 70% v. 60% that makes it seem like a much more apt comparison than the reality of 77% v. 50%. The classification for someone who spends about 50% of the time running routes out of the backfield, and 50% of the time either running or blocking in the backfield, is a RB. Darren Sproles, CJ Spiller, and Joique Bell all have similar breakdowns. All RBs. The classification for an OLB who rushes the passer 75% of the time is a rush LB, a 3-4 OLB. That's just where he fits. Where his counterpart on the other side of the field is doesn't change what role Miller is more similar too. It's like comparing Red Bryant to Robert Quinn or Jared Allen. Yeah, the positional classification is the same, but the expected roles are so different that it is effectively a waste of time.

And, for the last freaking time, this isn't a criticism, so stop throwing out that straw man.

Heck, if the guy ever gets franchise tagged, I'd just about bet money his agent would try to claim he needs to get tagged as a DE.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David
Miller
Davis
Briggs
Mayo
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny trevathan is borderline top 5, no homer. He is good in coverage and an excellent sideline to sideline tackler.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Orangecrushin wrote:
Danny trevathan is borderline top 5, no homer. He is good in coverage and an excellent sideline to sideline tackler.


He's very talented but his body of work is small.

2 more years like the one he just had and he should be on everyone's list.

I'd put him just outside the top 10 right now.
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