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Tony Sparano has signed a 2 year contract
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21104
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nix shouldn't come back as a water boy. Yes bergstrom is getting a pass being reggie first pick. He will get one more training camp to prove his worth. Either way the position needs to be taken care of.
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TiberiusRising


Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 8483
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
TiberiusRising wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
Honestly I'd just cut Nix before TC and have Berg compete with whoever we get for LG. We know Nix sucks at least. We can find someone else who can at least give the same production. I think Bergstrom can at least be that guy.

I agree. Nix had his chance. This year is Bergs chance to prove that at the very least he can be a backup.


And this is where I step in . . .

At least S&B88 is willing to capitulate given a preponderance of evidence. Let me get my handy dandy checklist out:
Things we don't believe in:
stats (check. Unless they support our position of course)
beat writers who were actually AT the camps (check)
scouts that get paid to evaluate (check)
coaches (check)
depth charts (check)

What we do believe in:
Ye ole' eye ball (even though you are not a professional and scouting through game feed.)
I've been at this a long time but even I have to depend on others sometimes to help me decipher what I am watching. S&B88 admitted a few years ago he didn't know OL receive a grade after every game nor how they determine the grade. So how is it now you can distinguish his superior play over anyone? But I digress as I have given you credit for least admitting that Bergs may just suck.

Tib, however, just so I have this narrative straight because this entertains me. The Raiders draft what they believe at the time is the "best ZBS OG" in the draft as Bergstrom was referred. Bergs gets no time as rookie although it's anticipated that he should contribute heavily since he is the best ZBS OG in the 2012 draft. The blocking scheme changes in 2013. So in order to motivate Bergs the staff gives valuable reps (as they were changing the offense) to an UDFA playing out of position to motivate Bergs.

Ok, question: What is more alarming? The fact that Bergs couldn't significantly separate his play from an UDFA RG or that he needed to be motivated at all?

In addition, exactly how did Nix get his shot?? He isn't a LG and in his ONE shot starting at RG in a live game he was serviceable. It's a good thing Veldheer wasn't graded by his play at OC when he filled in during an emergency in 2011.

This is a clear case of draft pick bias. Bergs sucks wake up and it didn't take 3 years to figure it out.

So by your logic Pryor should have been the starter at QB all season.

I can only say what I see. I do not base all my opinions of what someone else who is also not an expert says. Facts are there is plenty of evidence that the depth chart did not reflect the final roster for this team. Beat writers sitting at practice are nothing except eyes giving their opinion. Heck if we went by what they said then Alex Barron would still be a starter here with Criner and Butler as our other two starting WR. Maybe throw in some Matt Flynn/Tyler Wilson at QB and Kluwe would be our punter.

Go through OL history in GB. Almost all seemed as if they sucked or were not going to pan out their first couple years. Almost all of them rise to be starters or solid depth. Now with that said not alot of pro bowlers if any but they dont put as much value into the OL as other teams either.

btw, I though Veldheer played well at OC. And lets not pretend that moving from RG to LG is harder than moving from LT to OC. Heck Briesel even looked decent at OC moving from RG. I can see maybe the first couple weeks yeah takes time to learn nuances. But Nix got worse as the season went on not better. And more importantly he made the same exact mistakes over and over again.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14106
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The difference is the LG is gonna be left one on one with the DT a lot more. The NT is going to line up between the OC and RG quite often and get double teamed. Nix' skillsets seems more suited to the right side. But i don't think he's starter material on the right either, so that's not a huge deal.
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Big Rob


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
Posts: 1977
Location: Long Beach, Ca
PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2014 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bottom line is we need more OG's that are good!
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SPaceGhost


Joined: 01 Mar 2008
Posts: 2259
Location: Alabama
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:

Jared Veldheer was supposed to start going into the season and ended up tearing his triceps. Remember? Then Watson was supposed to play LT. And subsequently got hurt too. Which caused Khalif Barnes to move from RT and play LT. So we ended up signing a street FA.

Simultaneously, Bergstrom and Nix were having a contest to see who could play worse. Which was deadlocked until Berg got hurt. Andre Gurode inexplicably got in the mix too....until Stefen Wisnewski got hurt too. Then Gurode got hurt too.

Basically, the offensive line was doomed the entire year until about the end due to injuries and the resulting lack of chemistry.

Of course, it didn't help that we started the season with 2 QBs with the most pathetic pocket awareness I've seen in a long time. One can run at least, but he also chooses to hold the ball longer than any other QB because he can't make reads. At least he ran backwards too. Its funny to me that a UDFA played so much better than the other 2 guys. And he didn't even play that good for an NFL QB. Not that its really fair to expect him to, but he played how he played.

Anyway, it was a perfect storm this year and our OL looked a lot better when everyone got healthier and McG came in. With some stability and some personnel additions, I expect it to get much better. Just the fact that our QBs didn't get killed was impressive with the constant shuffle with the players. Save for TP, but then again he does tend to expose himself.


Very good post S&B!

It was the perfect storm of inneptitude, but once we had a QB in there with a quick release and decent pocket awareness the OL didn't look terrible, not great certainly but not terrible.

We have 3 solid players in Wiz, Veldheer and Watson to build with. Barnes has sold me on his versatility as a back up and McCants/Pashos could be backup options too. One of Bergstrom or Brisiel could be solid and the other a backup so we're not looking as forlorn as i thought mid season. If we pick up a good player at G either at draft time or through FA we could have a very solid OL next season injuries permitting.


Awesome avatar, one of my favorite RAIDERS and totally underrated... I'll award a No-Prize to whoever names him. Cool (I'll go to your house and throw your dachshund in the microwave on HIGH if you answer with Schweigert. Evil or Very Mad )
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5466
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all due respect to those who are suffering through what seems to be a debate about the 53rd man on the roster, the point is to show the extent we will go to maintain a narrative. Nix does suck but he beat out Bergstrom playing out of position. Bergstrom even admitted in an interview that he won the position due to injury.

For some to admit that Bergstrom actually got beat out by Nix, who sux, would be to admit that Bergstrom sucks, Wiz1.0 ,who we all love and scouted him, missed, after repeatedly saying Bergs was "playing pretty well to me" have no idea how to evaluate interior OG play. Rather than budge one iota as is American tradition we stick an illogical ever expanding narrative that people who actually attended the camp don't know what they are looking at, depth charts mean nothing, and coaches play games to their own determent. Rolling Eyes The simplest answer is usually the correct one. Bergs stinks.

I've been doing this a LONG time and even I find it very difficult to evaluate interior OL play. Sometimes I rely on the supplement evaluation of those that do it professionally if I can't get enough clear tape. To suggest that one can adequately evaluate interior OL play on a broadcast feed of PRESEASON games is laughable. At times I call on my personal experiences as a D1 football player and the experiences of my former teammates who played in the league. Roster moves can often tell you a lot about the staff feels about a player. I've "hit" on a lot of players so my system has not failed me.

When a relative unknown from a well-known school (or well know to me at least), such as Utah, gets drafted as "the best _____" that's my first red flag. However, I am not a fan of ZBS and I won't claim to know every ZBS prospect. Bergs may just pan out but I highly doubt it, not for the Raiders. Ultimately, I think Bergstrom is an underpowered, short-armed ZBS RT and could stick a few more years as a backup somewhere else. I wholehearted do not believe Bergs makes the roster in 2014.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22108
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding Bergstrom. He was the 95th overall pick. A compensatory selection.

This is the area of the draft you 'hope' to find a nice role player. You 'might' hit the jackpot on a player. But the majority of selections here are developmental players who often find it hard to make rosters.

There really was not a player taken in the 4th of the 2012 draft that is doing anything of note. Maybe Cousins if you buy that hype train (I don't).

Bergstrom's selection is just highlighted because it was Reggie's first selection as the GM of the Raiders. And thus fuel to hate on him.

3 picks later the well respected Ozzie Newsome took Gino Gradkowski who is a whipping boy on the Ravens Oline. But his track record of success allows a miss here and there.

Fact is, some of the fans here have an unrealistic expectation of Reggie and co.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5466
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I certainly hope that you don't feel I'm "fueled to hate on [Bergstrom]". I just think he sucks. He's a draft pick that as you stated has a low success probability so who's expectations are unrealistic? Those who are expecting Bergstrom to become a viable starter and hold down the LG are more than likely siping Kool-aid. Yet many have Bergs penciled ini at LG. /shiver.

Fair or unfair, you and I (and MANY others) both have expressed numerous concerns about the draft processes and development of players of this FO. Bergstrom is just another log on the fire.
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Mancrush 2014: DE Clowney, WR Watkins, OT Robinson, LB Shazier, FS Brooks, TE ASJ, OG Jackson, WR Janis, OT Lucas, OT Tiny
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Speed_Wrench


Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 4598
Location: Bay area
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SPaceGhost wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:

Jared Veldheer was supposed to start going into the season and ended up tearing his triceps. Remember? Then Watson was supposed to play LT. And subsequently got hurt too. Which caused Khalif Barnes to move from RT and play LT. So we ended up signing a street FA.

Simultaneously, Bergstrom and Nix were having a contest to see who could play worse. Which was deadlocked until Berg got hurt. Andre Gurode inexplicably got in the mix too....until Stefen Wisnewski got hurt too. Then Gurode got hurt too.

Basically, the offensive line was doomed the entire year until about the end due to injuries and the resulting lack of chemistry.

Of course, it didn't help that we started the season with 2 QBs with the most pathetic pocket awareness I've seen in a long time. One can run at least, but he also chooses to hold the ball longer than any other QB because he can't make reads. At least he ran backwards too. Its funny to me that a UDFA played so much better than the other 2 guys. And he didn't even play that good for an NFL QB. Not that its really fair to expect him to, but he played how he played.

Anyway, it was a perfect storm this year and our OL looked a lot better when everyone got healthier and McG came in. With some stability and some personnel additions, I expect it to get much better. Just the fact that our QBs didn't get killed was impressive with the constant shuffle with the players. Save for TP, but then again he does tend to expose himself.


Very good post S&B!

It was the perfect storm of inneptitude, but once we had a QB in there with a quick release and decent pocket awareness the OL didn't look terrible, not great certainly but not terrible.

We have 3 solid players in Wiz, Veldheer and Watson to build with. Barnes has sold me on his versatility as a back up and McCants/Pashos could be backup options too. One of Bergstrom or Brisiel could be solid and the other a backup so we're not looking as forlorn as i thought mid season. If we pick up a good player at G either at draft time or through FA we could have a very solid OL next season injuries permitting.


Awesome avatar, one of my favorite RAIDERS and totally underrated... I'll award a No-Prize to whoever names him. Cool (I'll go to your house and throw your dachshund in the microwave on HIGH if you answer with Schweigert. Evil or Very Mad )


Vann McElroy, I probably crucified his name but being an old fart has it's advantages around you yungstas Wink
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22108
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
I certainly hope that you don't feel I'm "fueled to hate on [Bergstrom]". I just think he sucks. He's a draft pick that as you stated has a low success probability so who's expectations are unrealistic? Those who are expecting Bergstrom to become a viable starter and hold down the LG are more than likely siping Kool-aid. Yet many have Bergs penciled ini at LG. /shiver.

Fair or unfair, you and I (and MANY others) both have expressed numerous concerns about the draft processes and development of players of this FO. Bergstrom is just another log on the fire.


Wasn't directing that at you, no. Just the fans who look for any reason to hate Reggie and the process. The collective that think there is a quick fix in Oakland and expectations are every draft pick and FA move has to be a hit or else "fire the GM". The no patience crowd.

Bergstrom sucks. I agree. But I had no expectation for a compensatory draft pick to be a stud. If he was serviceable, it would be a win at 95.
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