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ny92jefferis


Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Posts: 2196
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agcott,

What names would you be looking at in free agency to solve the issues of the offensive line?
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ny92jefferis wrote:
Acgott wrote:
ny92jefferis wrote:
I don't know man, we really haven't seen much success in the run game in awhile. Running backs have played a role in that but we used to have a great group of lineman back in the day. David Diehl, Rich, O'hara, Snee, McKenzie. Not sure if they all played together or for how long they were together but we had a really good offensive line back then and I just don't see that at all now.

Giants are paying Eli a ton of money, I would hope that they would at least consider protecting that investment by getting some quality lineman to protect him. Again, I don't care if its free agency, trade, draft but the last thing I'd be looking for is average lineman to correct a major problem.

just my opinion.

Those players were good solid players that were able to play together to become great. Except for maybe Snee they were never considered the very best at their position.

We also didn't use high picks to get them. These were low cost players that we developed.

Diehl (5th), Seubert (undrafted), O'Hara (FA for 3 years for 5.4 million) Snee (2nd) Mckenzie (FA averaged 5 million over 7 years)

Signing Alex Mack and Jon Asamoah would be great, but those players are going to be expensive. The play of an OL is about playing together.

We can sign mid tier OL or spend mid round picks and still have a very good OL. No need to use our 1st or sign the very best OL.

1 great OL does not make a OL great, 5 solid ones do



I'm not saying we need to use our 1st. I think we should look at bpa with each pick.

I guess what scares me is that when you say average lineman, I'm thinking guys that are average. Our interior is a mess. Getting three average guys to fill that role of protecting manning and making running lanes could look nothing better than what we had last season. I do think that at least one highly rated interior lineman is going to be needed.

Take Dallas, drafting that center corrected a lot of their offensive line issues.

Just as you pointed out that a quality lineman doesn't have to come from the first round in the draft. I'm not saying that we must draft offensive lineman in the first, just that better than average is going to be needed to fix this mess.

Our OL was not average last year. It was way below average.

We started 7 different OL combinations, thats the 2nd most in the league. When the OL is all about continuity, that is a big problem.

I don't pretend to know a lot about the OL play of other teams, but looking at a FA list maybe signing a FA like a G Zane Beadles or a Chad Rinehart or maybe C Evan Dietrich-Smith. Mid tier guys that won't cost everything we got.

Going into 2014 looking like this

LT: Beatty
LG: Boothe
C: Dietrich-Smith
RG: 2-4 round rookie
RT: Pugh

Looks a lot better than it did last season and we don't spend a ton of money either

We can sign Mike Johnson to a 1 yr deal to see if he recovers from his leg injury. Depending how the 2014 season goes will be to see if we keep Beatty and Boothe. Worst case scenario Beatty fails

2015 OL:

LT: Pugh
LG: Mike Johnson
C: Dietrich-Smith
RG: 2014 rookie
RT: 2015 rookie
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bballbkd1001


Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 3917
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Points will be credited. 4 points for 1st round, 3 points for 2nd round, 2 for 3rd and 1 for 4th
In the past 4 drafts, Our top 4 picks are:

2013:
OT 4
DT 3
DE 2
QB 1

2012:
rb 4
wr 3
cb 2
te 1

2011:
cb 4
dt 3
wr 2
ot 1

2010:
de 4
dt 3
s 2
lb 1

25 points defense
16 points offense

We have been drafting defense in the earlier rounds... majority of our defense is YOUNG.
in 2013...
JPP, Moore, Hankins, joseph, williams, prince, will hill, hosely were all under 25. hell, even stevie brown is 27 and beason is 28.




now i dont think we should go out and sign Mack. I love EDS and think him and Asamoah would be great for us... but so would a second round guard like yankey.


Beatty-asamoah-EDS-Yankey-Pugh would be an outstanding line for Eli..
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It be great to sign all those players but that is expensive

LT: Beatty- 7.4
LG: Asamoah- 5.9 (Cap hit of #15 most expensive guard, Chris Kuper
C: Dietrich-Smith- 3.3 (Cap hit of #15 most expensive Center, Kyle Cook)
G: Yankey- .6
RT: Pugh 1.8

Total: 19 million

That's a lot of money in one area.

It be better to make one signing this year and then another next year if necessary especially since we don't have a lot of money, but a ton of needs
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bballbkd1001


Joined: 04 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acgott wrote:
It be great to sign all those players but that is expensive

LT: Beatty- 7.4
LG: Asamoah- 5.9 (Cap hit of #15 most expensive guard, Chris Kuper
C: Dietrich-Smith- 3.3 (Cap hit of #15 most expensive Center, Kyle Cook)
G: Yankey- .6
RT: Pugh 1.8

Total: 19 million

That's a lot of money in one area.

It be better to make one signing this year and then another next year if necessary especially since we don't have a lot of money, but a ton of needs


That's not a lot at all!
19/128 mill is roughly 15 percent of the cap...
eli is making that much by himself
those five players would be over 20 percent of the starting roster

you can get 20 percent of the starting roster for only 15 percent of your cap.
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bballbkd1001


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

plus what really helped our oline in years past... with deihl, seubert, ohara, snee and mck... is that theyve played together for 60 straight plus games. They were never injured and consistency factored in due to their brotherhood you can say...

By switching the line up by 40 percent this year as youve mentioned and then switching it again by 40 percent in 2015, you are not bringing in consistency for a 34/35 year old eli manning.
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bballbkd1001 wrote:
plus what really helped our oline in years past... with deihl, seubert, ohara, snee and mck... is that theyve played together for 60 straight plus games. They were never injured and consistency factored in due to their brotherhood you can say...

By switching the line up by 40 percent this year as youve mentioned and then switching it again by 40 percent in 2015, you are not bringing in consistency for a 34/35 year old eli manning.

It is a lot to spend all at once.

The 2nd was a worst case scenario

If all goes well for 2014. The OL in 2015 could be

LT: Beatty
LG: Boothe or 2015 offseason move
C: Dietrich-Smith
RG: 2014 Draft pick
RT: Pugh
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bballbkd1001


Joined: 04 Feb 2009
Posts: 3917
PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acgott wrote:
bballbkd1001 wrote:
plus what really helped our oline in years past... with deihl, seubert, ohara, snee and mck... is that theyve played together for 60 straight plus games. They were never injured and consistency factored in due to their brotherhood you can say...

By switching the line up by 40 percent this year as youve mentioned and then switching it again by 40 percent in 2015, you are not bringing in consistency for a 34/35 year old eli manning.

It is a lot to spend all at once.

The 2nd was a worst case scenario

If all goes well for 2014. The OL in 2015 could be

LT: Beatty
LG: Boothe or 2015 offseason move
C: Dietrich-Smith
RG: 2014 Draft pick
RT: Pugh


So the only difference is boothe/asamoah lol Smile
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bballbkd1001 wrote:
Acgott wrote:
bballbkd1001 wrote:
plus what really helped our oline in years past... with deihl, seubert, ohara, snee and mck... is that theyve played together for 60 straight plus games. They were never injured and consistency factored in due to their brotherhood you can say...

By switching the line up by 40 percent this year as youve mentioned and then switching it again by 40 percent in 2015, you are not bringing in consistency for a 34/35 year old eli manning.

It is a lot to spend all at once.

The 2nd was a worst case scenario

If all goes well for 2014. The OL in 2015 could be

LT: Beatty
LG: Boothe or 2015 offseason move
C: Dietrich-Smith
RG: 2014 Draft pick
RT: Pugh


So the only difference is boothe/asamoah lol Smile

Pretty much 5 mil difference which we can use in a different area
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ny92jefferis


Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Posts: 2196
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acgott wrote:
bballbkd1001 wrote:
Acgott wrote:
bballbkd1001 wrote:
plus what really helped our oline in years past... with deihl, seubert, ohara, snee and mck... is that theyve played together for 60 straight plus games. They were never injured and consistency factored in due to their brotherhood you can say...

By switching the line up by 40 percent this year as youve mentioned and then switching it again by 40 percent in 2015, you are not bringing in consistency for a 34/35 year old eli manning.

It is a lot to spend all at once.

The 2nd was a worst case scenario

If all goes well for 2014. The OL in 2015 could be

LT: Beatty
LG: Boothe or 2015 offseason move
C: Dietrich-Smith
RG: 2014 Draft pick
RT: Pugh


So the only difference is boothe/asamoah lol Smile

Pretty much 5 mil difference which we can use in a different area


Smith wouldn't be a bad option at center as we've discussed before, but for someone thats really only had one full season under his belt. Not sure I would be willing to trust the security of manning with him. Now if we drafted center in the 2nd to mid round then sure. The issue I'm seeing just isn't finding starters to fill the interior of the line but we need depth at the position as well.

I don't see a cheap option in correcting the line issues, its going to cost in the draft as well as the free agency.

Getting some up and coming guys like the guard and center mentioned would be a step in the right direction. Those guys aren't going to be demanding top 10 salary and with the right structured contract the cap hits for both of these guys would be on the cheap at least for the first year.

I will say that odds the giants resign Linval are looking slim at the moment. I think Tuck carries more value to the young talent we have at that position and would be considerably cheaper sign than Linval.
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Acgott


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is we don't have money. With my suggestion to fixing the OL, we will still have a good OL, but we can spread the cap hit better.

We have needs at every position and we need to address as many as we can
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ny92jefferis


Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Posts: 2196
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Acgott wrote:
The problem is we don't have money. With my suggestion to fixing the OL, we will still have a good OL, but we can spread the cap hit better.

We have needs at every position and we need to address as many as we can


You aren't saying anything new....ha

I know the cap situation and what we're looking at in terms of possibly freeing up more cap. Our list of free agents this year is staggering. I don't think there is one position aside from quarterback that couldn't use another player or two.

I don't expect to see the giants resign linval or nicks. I do hope that Tuck, Stevie Brown, Andre and McBride find their way back on the roster.

Considering Browns injury Tuck would be the only one to cost any real money.

No doubt though, the Giants are going to have to get creative with their cap. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see Snee released and retire the same day. I also expect Rolle is asked to restructure his contract and perhaps Manning as well. That could free up some serious money there. Baas and Mathias could get released and at the minimum Baas needs to take a pay cut.
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Kodaraw


Joined: 12 Feb 2013
Posts: 635
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ny92jefferis wrote:


GmenSeattle wrote:
As for DE I think we can get Sam in the 3rd...maybe even later. Which is a shame that people would let him fall so far just because of his preferences. Anyway. I don't mean to start a debate about that so lets focus on what the guy does on the field. He's the best defensive player coming out of the best conference...or at least was voted as such Razz Also wouldn't mind getting Joseph back if we can for a reasonable sum...Mack and Joseph would be a good start in shoring up the trenches.


Personally, I donít think that the Giants should even be looking at defensive end in the draft. I know that Jason is dealing with injury but with Moore and him they are very young and I would just hate to draft a player high in the draft that would potential push one of these guys out without really ever seeing either one develop. Drafting one in the third round or later, Iíve got no issues with at all.
The more I think about Joseph the less I think heíll be in blue next season. Rumored that the Giants favor Tuck over Joseph and in a way I do too. He is the veteran of this team, heís still teaching these young guys weíve got. Joseph is a cog in the middle but I believe Hankins could develop into a similar player. A couple years back I thought there would be no way that the giants would let Barry Cofield go yet they did.
Myself, Iím liking the idea of drafting linebacker/ offensive line/ cornerback in the first round, in no specific order.


Why? You want to depend on Kiwi and Moore? Thats all we have under contract besides JPP. Thats 3 DE under contract. 1 has a major injury thats hampered him for two years. One is HORRIBLE against the run (bottom 5 DE against the run) and one has limited situational experience... We've been in the bottom of the league in sacks for years now. DE is a huge area of concern. Look at carolina. Mediocre secondary, strong front 7. Overall, they had a strong defense. Thats been us. Strong front 4 to mask the deficiencies.

Aaron Lynch is a sleeper IMO. We need to go D on this draft. The talent is too much to pass up. We will regret it in 2-3 years when we overcorrected to fix the offense and let the defense slip. Fix the defense, sign a FA or two OL (mack has said he will test FA, btw) and draft a WR or TE. DE, CB, LB, DT should all be addressed IMO.


And lets be real - we have a limited number of draft picks and salary cap space, with a lot of needs.
Yankey will be gone by our second round pick IMO.

We have a franchise QB. We have a #1 WR.
Would you rather dedicate all of your resources to the offense and neglect the defense?
Or a strong defense and let your franchise QB do his magic?

IMO we can get by with one to two offense picks... a RB and OL. POSSIBLY TE/WR depending if someone of value really falls (I like brandon coleman)
The rest should go to defense.
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ny92jefferis


Joined: 22 Mar 2013
Posts: 2196
PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kodaraw wrote:


Why? You want to depend on Kiwi and Moore? Thats all we have under contract besides JPP. Thats 3 DE under contract. 1 has a major injury thats hampered him for two years. One is HORRIBLE against the run (bottom 5 DE against the run) and one has limited situational experience... We've been in the bottom of the league in sacks for years now. DE is a huge area of concern. Look at carolina. Mediocre secondary, strong front 7. Overall, they had a strong defense. Thats been us. Strong front 4 to mask the deficiencies.

Aaron Lynch is a sleeper IMO. We need to go D on this draft. The talent is too much to pass up. We will regret it in 2-3 years when we overcorrected to fix the offense and let the defense slip. Fix the defense, sign a FA or two OL (mack has said he will test FA, btw) and draft a WR or TE. DE, CB, LB, DT should all be addressed IMO.


And lets be real - we have a limited number of draft picks and salary cap space, with a lot of needs.
Yankey will be gone by our second round pick IMO.

We have a franchise QB. We have a #1 WR.
Would you rather dedicate all of your resources to the offense and neglect the defense?
Or a strong defense and let your franchise QB do his magic?

IMO we can get by with one to two offense picks... a RB and OL. POSSIBLY TE/WR depending if someone of value really falls (I like brandon coleman)
The rest should go to defense.


I'm not saying we shouldn't draft another defensive end, but I made my statement with the assumption that Tuck is resigned. We've invested a lot of top picks on the defensive front already. I'm not ready to say that those top picks have busted so bad that its time to invest another top pick on another one.

I'm completely aware what the team is capable of doing with a strong defensive front and average linebackers with a mix of talent in the secondary.

I've got no problem if the Giants drafted defense with every single pick, I just don't think that its needed. You know as well as I do that the Giants typically draft best player available and I've never had an issue with that.

If best player available is defensive end, then so be it. I just hope that its linebacker or corner. I'd feel more comfortable going defensive at those positions than defensive end.

I don't see receiver as big of a need as you do and I might be on the other side of the fence with that one but tight end and running back are much higher on that board than receiver.

My ideal draft would be to trade down from 12 and spend our first pick an a offensive interior lineman, but if a trade can't happen then use the first pick on linebacker/ corner and second on a center, after that I'm basically fine with what ever position.

You mentioned over correcting on offense and paying for it a couple years down the road. I kinda think thats what our offense is dealing with right now. Too many top picks spent of defense and not enough on offense.

Something like 7 third round or higher draft picks spent on the defense since 2010.

ROUND 1 Pick 19: Prince Amukamara
ROUND 2 Pick 46: Linval Joseph
ROUND 2 Pick 49: Johnathan Hankins
ROUND 2 Pick 52: Marvin Austin
ROUND 3 Pick 81: Damontre Moore
ROUND 3 Pick 94: Jayron Hosley
ROUND 1 Pick 15: Jason Pierre-Paul

on offense

ROUND 1 Pick 19: Justin Pugh
ROUND 1 Pick 32: David Wilson
ROUND 2 Pick 63: Rueben Randle
ROUND 3 Pick 83: Jerrel Jernigan

Now in the overall draft, its basically neck 'n' neck in terms of equal number of picks for offense and defense.

I think you're saying the same thing as I am we just looking at it differently.

I fine drafting defense with a mix of offensive players.
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Kodaraw


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ny92jefferis wrote:
Kodaraw wrote:


Why? You want to depend on Kiwi and Moore? Thats all we have under contract besides JPP. Thats 3 DE under contract. 1 has a major injury thats hampered him for two years. One is HORRIBLE against the run (bottom 5 DE against the run) and one has limited situational experience... We've been in the bottom of the league in sacks for years now. DE is a huge area of concern. Look at carolina. Mediocre secondary, strong front 7. Overall, they had a strong defense. Thats been us. Strong front 4 to mask the deficiencies.

Aaron Lynch is a sleeper IMO. We need to go D on this draft. The talent is too much to pass up. We will regret it in 2-3 years when we overcorrected to fix the offense and let the defense slip. Fix the defense, sign a FA or two OL (mack has said he will test FA, btw) and draft a WR or TE. DE, CB, LB, DT should all be addressed IMO.


And lets be real - we have a limited number of draft picks and salary cap space, with a lot of needs.
Yankey will be gone by our second round pick IMO.

We have a franchise QB. We have a #1 WR.
Would you rather dedicate all of your resources to the offense and neglect the defense?
Or a strong defense and let your franchise QB do his magic?

IMO we can get by with one to two offense picks... a RB and OL. POSSIBLY TE/WR depending if someone of value really falls (I like brandon coleman)
The rest should go to defense.


I'm not saying we shouldn't draft another defensive end, but I made my statement with the assumption that Tuck is resigned. We've invested a lot of top picks on the defensive front already. I'm not ready to say that those top picks have busted so bad that its time to invest another top pick on another one.

I'm completely aware what the team is capable of doing with a strong defensive front and average linebackers with a mix of talent in the secondary.

I've got no problem if the Giants drafted defense with every single pick, I just don't think that its needed. You know as well as I do that the Giants typically draft best player available and I've never had an issue with that.

If best player available is defensive end, then so be it. I just hope that its linebacker or corner. I'd feel more comfortable going defensive at those positions than defensive end.

I don't see receiver as big of a need as you do and I might be on the other side of the fence with that one but tight end and running back are much higher on that board than receiver.

My ideal draft would be to trade down from 12 and spend our first pick an a offensive interior lineman, but if a trade can't happen then use the first pick on linebacker/ corner and second on a center, after that I'm basically fine with what ever position.

You mentioned over correcting on offense and paying for it a couple years down the road. I kinda think thats what our offense is dealing with right now. Too many top picks spent of defense and not enough on offense.

Something like 7 third round or higher draft picks spent on the defense since 2010.

ROUND 1 Pick 19: Prince Amukamara
ROUND 2 Pick 46: Linval Joseph
ROUND 2 Pick 49: Johnathan Hankins
ROUND 2 Pick 52: Marvin Austin
ROUND 3 Pick 81: Damontre Moore
ROUND 3 Pick 94: Jayron Hosley
ROUND 1 Pick 15: Jason Pierre-Paul

on offense

ROUND 1 Pick 19: Justin Pugh
ROUND 1 Pick 32: David Wilson
ROUND 2 Pick 63: Rueben Randle
ROUND 3 Pick 83: Jerrel Jernigan

Now in the overall draft, its basically neck 'n' neck in terms of equal number of picks for offense and defense.

I think you're saying the same thing as I am we just looking at it differently.

I fine drafting defense with a mix of offensive players.


I don't think receiver is a glaring need, but I also don't have a lot of confidence in Randle to step up. I like Coleman and he was vying for #1 WR this year but dropped tremendously because of inconsistent hands. He has a good route tree, he's big, physical, ginormous catch radius, and his speed isn't bad. He will be a nice replacement to Nicks.

I agree that our first round shouldn't be a DE because I don't think Clowney will fall, and I'm not sure about Ealy yet. He's supposedly going to rise like JPP, Chandler Jones, and Ziggy Ansah when it comes to combine. He's a physical freak with long arms, but he's raw, just like the rest. Personally, I'd like Khalil Mack or Gilbert/Dennard or Haha Clinton Dix. HCD will probably catch most people off guard but he's a solid pick for the future. Rolle is aging, Hill is unreliable, and Stevie only has one good season and then tore his ACL.
I wouldn't mind a G/C in the second though. Richburg or Swanson would be find by me.
Then DE/DT/LB/CB in the third and fourth. I like Kareem Martin, Dominque Easley (3tech DT... Nothing like pressure up the middle), and Aaron Lynch (Will need a season or so to really come on but once he gains muscle he will be a force.. Him + JPP + Moore would be nasty... NASCAR package all over again).
Jeremy Hill would be my RB pick. Charles Sims and Carlos Hyde are also in the running, but I think Hill could be had a round or two later because character flags will make him drop, but he is a physical, hard runner and I think we need that. I like Pierre Desir, SJB, Watkins from Florida at CB.

Also - Don't forget Hakeem Nicks was a first rounder
Mario Manningham was a third
Steve Smith was a second or third.
The entire 2009 draft was offense except Sintim
A lot has been spent on offense as well.
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