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mddeckie


Joined: 07 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly don't see the ravens freeing enough cap space for Mack. It be nice but I just don't see it happening. Assuming osemele comes back healthy and the ravens resign Monroe, are needs would be center, and right tackle and wide reciever. I think the ravens will go TE or WR in the first round. I believe a 2nd round pick will go to either center or tackle.

After Mack, what other potential center free agents are the? And what about tackles?
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santiagomn8


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mddeckie wrote:
I honestly don't see the ravens freeing enough cap space for Mack. It be nice but I just don't see it happening. Assuming osemele comes back healthy and the ravens resign Monroe, are needs would be center, and right tackle and wide reciever. I think the ravens will go TE or WR in the first round. I believe a 2nd round pick will go to either center or tackle.

After Mack, what other potential center free agents are the? And what about tackles?


De la puente from the Saints. He has been a good center for a few years now and won't break the bank especially with Mack as a great distraction for other teams. Saints are also in bad shape with their cap situation which would help the cause. When it comes to tackle I rather go thru the draft since we don't have to much money and the tackle class is deep this year.
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BareYourTeeth


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 17, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rather go big on center, in FA, and sign Alex Mack then look to find a cheaper LT like Anthony Collins, for something like 3 years $18 million. Instead of going big on LT by re-signing Monroe and signing a cheaper C like De la puente.
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boudroux13


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Letting Monroe walk for Mack would be a terrible move IMO. Monroe played very well for an acquisition after the regular season started as well as not having a starting caliber LG or C next to him. He even graded out as a top 10 LT on PFF if I remember correctly. Bringing Mack in would be great, he's a stud C, no doubt about it. But the browns have solid pieces at almost every position on their line, something we don't have. Mack wouldn't help anymore than Monroe would, plus we would need a new blindside protector that didn't get Joe killed. To be honest even when KO played at LG he was extremely underwhelming so we can't even be sure he's the long term answer at LG. If you wanted to improve the line through free agency I think it would be wise to grab someone like Travelle Wharton or John Jerry. Wharton was great last year and in the past but has struggled with some injuries of late and is a bit older. He would be great at guard and allow us to flip him or KO out to RT depending on who wins the starting LG job. Jerry would give us the flexibility of a player who can play any of the interior positions at at least an average level which is more than I can say for Gino.

In terms of FA's at other positions that could help the team, I'd look at Dexter McCluster. A great X-factor to replace Jacoby who we most likely won't be able to re-sign. He also gives us that quick slot weapon we need. Another cheap option would be Fred Davis. He has the talent but got put in the doghouse. A chance in Baltimore might be what he needs.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BareYourTeeth wrote:
I'd rather go big on center, in FA, and sign Alex Mack then look to find a cheaper LT like Anthony Collins, for something like 3 years $18 million. Instead of going big on LT by re-signing Monroe and signing a cheaper C like De la puente.


I just don't see any chance in hell that Ozzie trades a 4th & 5th for a player only to let him walk after half a season. Especially if we end up bringing in a high priced FA at the same time which would wipe out any sort of compensatory pick gained from Monroe.

I think we see Monroe re-signed and center targeted early in the draft to compete.
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drd23


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I agree that its highly unlikely that we sign Mack over re-signing Monroe for a number of reasons, those draft picks are a sunk cost and shouldn't be a driving factor in signing one over the other.

If it was actually possible to sign Mack at better value than Monroe, that is absolutely the signing that should be made
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

drd23 wrote:
While I agree that its highly unlikely that we sign Mack over re-signing Monroe for a number of reasons, those draft picks are a sunk cost and shouldn't be a driving factor in signing one over the other.

If it was actually possible to sign Mack at better value than Monroe, that is absolutely the signing that should be made

Yup. And this is the point that I've made before. Those picks are gone no matter if we resign Monroe or sign Mack. We traded those picks because it gives us the ability to franchise Monroe. But if we don't franchise him and he becomes a FA, those picks are no longer relevant to the equation. At that point, it becomes about value of the player.

Furthermore the contract for Mack might not even wipe out Monroe's compensatory picks. Michael Oher could potentially get paid money comparable to Mack (can't speak as to the value of OTs- which appears to vary in range) and thus it could cancel out his ROI, but then leave Monroe's value to the comp system still available.

I have absolutely nothing against signing Monroe. But I also don't know his price demands. Money for LTs seem to range all over the place. Thomas is making clearly elite money. But then you've got a guy like Duane Brown who was elite for about two years prior to his deal and only got $8m. Andrew Whitworth wasn't a completely known commodity, but you'd have to think he was somewhat underpaid at about 6m or so.

So it's hard to get a grip on where these negotiations could be in money range. So if it gets too high and Mack is the better value/an option, that's the route I go. Especially with the draft offering a far superior supply of OT options than center options.

But yeah, probably not likely that Monroe isn't resigned. The opposite is simply a scenario worth considering IMO.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
drd23 wrote:
While I agree that its highly unlikely that we sign Mack over re-signing Monroe for a number of reasons, those draft picks are a sunk cost and shouldn't be a driving factor in signing one over the other.

If it was actually possible to sign Mack at better value than Monroe, that is absolutely the signing that should be made

Yup. And this is the point that I've made before. Those picks are gone no matter if we resign Monroe or sign Mack. We traded those picks because it gives us the ability to franchise Monroe. But if we don't franchise him and he becomes a FA, those picks are no longer relevant to the equation. At that point, it becomes about value of the player.

Furthermore the contract for Mack might not even wipe out Monroe's compensatory picks. Michael Oher could potentially get paid money comparable to Mack (can't speak as to the value of OTs- which appears to vary in range) and thus it could cancel out his ROI, but then leave Monroe's value to the comp system still available.

I have absolutely nothing against signing Monroe. But I also don't know his price demands. Money for LTs seem to range all over the place. Thomas is making clearly elite money. But then you've got a guy like Duane Brown who was elite for about two years prior to his deal and only got $8m. Andrew Whitworth wasn't a completely known commodity, but you'd have to think he was somewhat underpaid at about 6m or so.

So it's hard to get a grip on where these negotiations could be in money range. So if it gets too high and Mack is the better value/an option, that's the route I go. Especially with the draft offering a far superior supply of OT options than center options.

But yeah, probably not likely that Monroe isn't resigned. The opposite is simply a scenario worth considering IMO.


I wasn't trying to imply that the draft picks should factor in -- sorry if it came off that way. I completely agree that at this point, they are a sunk cost.

My point is simply that Ozzie plays this game far too well to have paid that sort of price without having a solid understanding of what Monroe would be looking for and feeling confident that both sides would work out a long-term deal. I simply don't see Ozzie making a move like that in which he pulls a mid-season trade only to let them walk. He's far too good of a chess player to do so.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
drd23 wrote:
While I agree that its highly unlikely that we sign Mack over re-signing Monroe for a number of reasons, those draft picks are a sunk cost and shouldn't be a driving factor in signing one over the other.

If it was actually possible to sign Mack at better value than Monroe, that is absolutely the signing that should be made

Yup. And this is the point that I've made before. Those picks are gone no matter if we resign Monroe or sign Mack. We traded those picks because it gives us the ability to franchise Monroe. But if we don't franchise him and he becomes a FA, those picks are no longer relevant to the equation. At that point, it becomes about value of the player.

Furthermore the contract for Mack might not even wipe out Monroe's compensatory picks. Michael Oher could potentially get paid money comparable to Mack (can't speak as to the value of OTs- which appears to vary in range) and thus it could cancel out his ROI, but then leave Monroe's value to the comp system still available.

I have absolutely nothing against signing Monroe. But I also don't know his price demands. Money for LTs seem to range all over the place. Thomas is making clearly elite money. But then you've got a guy like Duane Brown who was elite for about two years prior to his deal and only got $8m. Andrew Whitworth wasn't a completely known commodity, but you'd have to think he was somewhat underpaid at about 6m or so.

So it's hard to get a grip on where these negotiations could be in money range. So if it gets too high and Mack is the better value/an option, that's the route I go. Especially with the draft offering a far superior supply of OT options than center options.

But yeah, probably not likely that Monroe isn't resigned. The opposite is simply a scenario worth considering IMO.


I wasn't trying to imply that the draft picks should factor in -- sorry if it came off that way. I completely agree that at this point, they are a sunk cost.

My point is simply that Ozzie plays this game far too well to have paid that sort of price without having a solid understanding of what Monroe would be looking for and feeling confident that both sides would work out a long-term deal. I simply don't see Ozzie making a move like that in which he pulls a mid-season trade only to let them walk. He's far too good of a chess player to do so.


Right, I think the use of the draft picks IS a sunk cost, however, we can use it as evidence of the likelihood that resigning Monroe has always been the plan.
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candyman93


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
candyman93 wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
The Browns just screwed themselves by letting go of Chudzinski just when he was building something there. I highly doubt Mack is going to be as team loyal now. And that should definitely aid in our chances of signing him.


He went 5-11 and there were tweets that players hated him. We should have given him another year, but come on with that. It's going to come down to money for Mack. We have the cap space to tag him if we're not big spenders in free agency this year. We just need to resign him and TJ. I think we have like 30 mil in cap space. I also guarantee we cut guys like Greg Little and Davone Bess.

Next year we might cut Rubin and DQ because they're making 16 mil combined. DQ doesn't deserve what he's making and Rubin might be cut because of our depth (definetly not because he isn't talented).

That's not the point. The point is that there was obvious improvement over his predecessor and by the end the leaders in the locker room seemed to want the coaching staff to return. Mack would have been much easier to sell on returning with a genuine staff in place looking to build towards a common goal.

But now, you're front office has proven their lack of patience and incompetence (if they weren't a fan of Chud, don't hire him.. Hire someone you are willing to stick behind in tough times. Do your due-diligence). So now Mack is in a position where this is his prime years. Money is a driving factor, but plenty of teams have money to spend... Many teams will have interest. And if a more stable situation presents itself with comparable money, why would Mack not leave? Just like coaches are hesitant to want to go to Cleveland, do you not think the players are effected? Don't you think players like Thomas and DQ were so outspoken because they see the same pattern of incompetence that has been clear to fans? That they are tied to long term contracts that bind them to that incompetence? Why would Mack knowingly choose to align himself with that situation when he could, take his talents elsewhere. There are enough quality teams with bundles of cap space and better situations... And I'm not talking about the Ravens in that cap space mention.

I'm not saying it's impossible to retain Mack, but I'd have to think the likelihood of resigning him after letting go of the current regime, in which he became an All Pro 1st teamer, will have at least lowered his chances of returning to Cleveland by (spitballing) 30% from what it would have been.


What I kind of suspected-

Pat McManoman/ESPN reports we could be franchise tagging Alex Mack if no long term deal is made before free agency.

KFFL

It makes sense for us because TJ is the most likely to sign a long term deal and we have a lot of cap space to do this.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

candyman93 wrote:

What I kind of suspected-

Pat McManoman/ESPN reports we could be franchise tagging Alex Mack if no long term deal is made before free agency.

KFFL

It makes sense for us because TJ is the most likely to sign a long term deal and we have a lot of cap space to do this.

So basically, the guy reports that Mack "could" be franchised, something we already knew "could" happen, right? He doesn't even present this info with the common, "undisclosed sources say" part. Meaning this is simply speculation on his part... which makes it no more important to me than if you or I were speculating on these possibilities. I wonder if the guy is even aware of the franchise tag being the same for all OL or if he was unaware. This info likely comes from a tweet, there is no official news story to look into. So this news says absolutely nothing that we didn't already know. It proves nothing. It's ESPN at it's finest.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Unrelated to Mack, but I think we could end up seeing Eric Winston signed as a short-term replacement for Oher at RT. He's a Kubiak guy, has had glowing things to say about the hire over the past 2 days, and I kind of recall seeing us show some interest in him a couple of years back before he signed with the Chiefs. If they're not comfortable with bumping Ricky Wagner into a starting role yet, then I think Winston could end up being the guy there.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
Unrelated to Mack, but I think we could end up seeing Eric Winston signed as a short-term replacement for Oher at RT. He's a Kubiak guy, has had glowing things to say about the hire over the past 2 days, and I kind of recall seeing us show some interest in him a couple of years back before he signed with the Chiefs. If they're not comfortable with bumping Ricky Wagner into a starting role yet, then I think Winston could end up being the guy there.

Yeah, I've been sort of wondering to myself if Winston was being so public about this Kubiak signing to try and line up his next gig.

Signing Eric Winston would make sense on a lot of levels. He'd be a cheap FA solution to plugging/competing for the RT hole (with Ricky Wagner) and thus allow us to keep Kelechi Osemele in at LG. Our OL would thus only need one new addition- with a center. Winston would serve as a guy that's familiar with Kubiak's system and has excelled in it.

One has to be weary of Winston's apparent mercenary like contracts that are in the Bernard Pollard mold. But we also probably wouldn't be looking to sign him to anything more than a 2 year deal anyway... and if we do look to sign him, it would be with the internal information that Kubiak could provide regarding Winston's locker room character. So we wouldn't be walking into the signing blind.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Detroit gave Dominic Raiola a 1-year deal. Dancing

Here is what I believe to be an accurate list of notable upcoming free agents:

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/45947/309/free-agency-update

Quote:
Centers

1. Alex Mack
2. Brian De La Puente
3. Evan Dietrich-Smith
4. Dominic Raiola (Re-signed one-year deal with DET)
5. Ryan Wendell
6. Jonathan Goodwin
7. Roberto Garza
8. Fernando Velasco
9. Ryan Cook
10. J.D. Walton
11. Ted Larsen
12. Joe Berger
13. Rob Turner
14. Joe Hawley
15. Dan Koppen
16. Mike McGlynn
17. Kevin Matthews
18. Chris Spencer
19. Dylan Gandy
20. Andre Gurode


Of those in that list which players have experience in a zone blocking system? To me that's probably the biggest factor for who Baltimore might target. Dietrich-Smith does since Green Bay employs a similar system to Kubiak's but I don't think the Packers are going to let him get away. I think New Orleans (in regards to De La Puente) runs a form of it too but I'm not quite sure which one. Past those two I'm having a hard time thinking of the others off the top of my head.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it would be wise to target a veteran center at this point. We already have AQ Shipley as a veteran center option to compete for the position. And it's not like many of the veteran options available project to have the great athleticism and/or experience within our scheme to look like a natural FA fit. We'd be spending money to gamble on a FA player learning a new system that they may or may not be a fit for.

The way I see it, we should:
A) Kick Kelechi Osemele back out to RT-
As you've mentioned, he's probably not the best fit inside in Kubiak's system. He has the length outside to be a decent pass blocker... and he's a natural mauler out there. If anything, we'd have a dominant run blocking tandem on the right side.

B) Convert Gino Gradkowski over to left guard-
Without having to focus on making the line calls, he should be able to better pick up Kubiak's scheme and limit his potential for incompetence. He has the natural athleticism and strength to compete for that spot from the get go. Gradkowski could compete with last year's 6th round pick, Ryan Jensen, for that starting LG spot. If we look to sign a veteran, I'd probably look towards guard depth to compete for the LG spot.

C) Draft a center that fits Kubiak's system-
We obviously don't want to make the mistake of taking the next Gino Gradkowski, but as long as we get a college center with plenty of experience, we should be fine. This gives us a cheaper solution to the equation. A solution that allows us to look at college scheme to see the compatibility with Kubiak's scheme and project their natural athleticism.


The way I see it, Kubiak's scheme has usually gotten the most out of athletic lineman. A guy like Chris Myers was drafted in the 6th round of the 2005 NFL Draft. So why not give Gradkowksi another shot at a starting spot elsewhere on the line in this new scheme?

If the Ravens feel KO can succeed inside in Kubiak's scheme, than I still think it would be better to target Eric Winston as a stop gap RT as our FA addition as opposed to a FA center.
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