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Raiders have received little production frm 2013 draft class
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DirtyHarry wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
also, Reggie didnt have the 2nd to pick Watson. He flipped #3 and got both Hayden AND Watson. to get 2 starters out of 1 pick in a not so great draft class is encouraging.
I guess we have diff definitions for "starters"

Just because they didn't start their rookie years doesn't they won't. this year with a full healthy offseason Watson should start along the line. As for Hayden or " walking dead " not soo sure lol
I mean nix was a "starter" maybe we should praise reg for finding him also lol. I have a sad feeling that Hayden or Watson will never play a complete season for health issues
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
DirtyHarry wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
also, Reggie didnt have the 2nd to pick Watson. He flipped #3 and got both Hayden AND Watson. to get 2 starters out of 1 pick in a not so great draft class is encouraging.
I guess we have diff definitions for "starters"

Just because they didn't start their rookie years doesn't they won't. this year with a full healthy offseason Watson should start along the line. As for Hayden or " walking dead " not soo sure lol
I mean nix was a "starter" maybe we should praise reg for finding him also lol. I have a sad feeling that Hayden or Watson will never play a complete season for health issues


After one season? For real? Honestly I'm not giving up on these guys just yet and i think they can be good. Watson for sure and Hayden has potential. Hayden is the reason why we beat SD, getting a pick in the end zone, sealed the deal. Nnamdi wasn't good his first few years either.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
According to who? Seattle has a good pass rush, but the reason for high sack numbers and a great pass defence is there secondary. Its all time great.


Collectively the defense tied for 8th most sacks. What because they don't have a big named defensive rusher they can't be a great pass rushing team?
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Mr.Bob Dobalina


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know that CB's take a while to develop and usually struggle early, but Hayden was brutally bad.
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
91jmay wrote:
According to who? Seattle has a good pass rush, but the reason for high sack numbers and a great pass defence is there secondary. Its all time great.


Collectively the defense tied for 8th most sacks. What because they don't have a big named defensive rusher they can't be a great pass rushing team?

No, because they are not and anyone who watches them knows that. They have a good pass rush, one of the best secondaries of the last 10 years, and a good LBer corp.
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Big Rob


Joined: 24 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
also, Reggie didnt have the 2nd to pick Watson. He flipped #3 and got both Hayden AND Watson. to get 2 starters out of 1 pick in a not so great draft class is encouraging.
I guess we have diff definitions for "starters"


+1

I think Ncough is distinguishing between actually contributing and just being a body standing in area defined as a position.


I'm projecting for next year. Im sure BOTH Hayden and Watson start next year and show improvement. Neither of them participated in TC, they were behind the curve. I'm not sure about you guys but I seen flashes of legit potential from both players. Maybe I'm not so cut and dry when analyzing young players. But I think with time these guys will be building blocks.

Nnamdi was horrible for 3years then he turned it around and became an All Pro. Imagine if we gave up on him after his rookie season...
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Speed_Wrench


Joined: 08 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Rob wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
also, Reggie didnt have the 2nd to pick Watson. He flipped #3 and got both Hayden AND Watson. to get 2 starters out of 1 pick in a not so great draft class is encouraging.
I guess we have diff definitions for "starters"


+1

I think Ncough is distinguishing between actually contributing and just being a body standing in area defined as a position.


I'm projecting for next year. Im sure BOTH Hayden and Watson start next year and show improvement. Neither of them participated in TC, they were behind the curve. I'm not sure about you guys but I seen flashes of legit potential from both players. Maybe I'm not so cut and dry when analyzing young players. But I think with time these guys will be building blocks.

Nnamdi was horrible for 3years then he turned it around and became an All Pro. Imagine if we gave up on him after his rookie season...


Some of these guys would, Nnamdi wasn't showing anything special like you said and people around here want immediate results, I think all the craziness Al pulled just convinced some that this is the way to run a team. I just wonder what they will complain about when this team turns this thing around? I can just hear it "Should have happened last year"? "The team doesn't win by a big enough margin"? Simply put some people just have zero patience, I think were still two more seasons from .500 or better.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Rob wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
also, Reggie didnt have the 2nd to pick Watson. He flipped #3 and got both Hayden AND Watson. to get 2 starters out of 1 pick in a not so great draft class is encouraging.
I guess we have diff definitions for "starters"


+1

I think Ncough is distinguishing between actually contributing and just being a body standing in area defined as a position.


I'm projecting for next year. Im sure BOTH Hayden and Watson start next year and show improvement. Neither of them participated in TC, they were behind the curve. I'm not sure about you guys but I seen flashes of legit potential from both players. Maybe I'm not so cut and dry when analyzing young players. But I think with time these guys will be building blocks.

Nnamdi was horrible for 3years then he turned it around and became an All Pro. Imagine if we gave up on him after his rookie season...


We wouldn't have over paid to resign a corner who had little effect on the game. Just a guess.
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Big Rob


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
also, Reggie didnt have the 2nd to pick Watson. He flipped #3 and got both Hayden AND Watson. to get 2 starters out of 1 pick in a not so great draft class is encouraging.
I guess we have diff definitions for "starters"


+1

I think Ncough is distinguishing between actually contributing and just being a body standing in area defined as a position.


I'm projecting for next year. Im sure BOTH Hayden and Watson start next year and show improvement. Neither of them participated in TC, they were behind the curve. I'm not sure about you guys but I seen flashes of legit potential from both players. Maybe I'm not so cut and dry when analyzing young players. But I think with time these guys will be building blocks.

Nnamdi was horrible for 3years then he turned it around and became an All Pro. Imagine if we gave up on him after his rookie season...


We wouldn't have over paid to resign a corner who had little effect on the game. Just a guess.


Lol you say that like it was Nnamdis fault the rest of our defense was bad...
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Speed_Wrench


Joined: 08 Feb 2010
Posts: 4532
Location: Bay area
PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Rob wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Big Rob wrote:
also, Reggie didnt have the 2nd to pick Watson. He flipped #3 and got both Hayden AND Watson. to get 2 starters out of 1 pick in a not so great draft class is encouraging.
I guess we have diff definitions for "starters"


+1

I think Ncough is distinguishing between actually contributing and just being a body standing in area defined as a position.


I'm projecting for next year. Im sure BOTH Hayden and Watson start next year and show improvement. Neither of them participated in TC, they were behind the curve. I'm not sure about you guys but I seen flashes of legit potential from both players. Maybe I'm not so cut and dry when analyzing young players. But I think with time these guys will be building blocks.

Nnamdi was horrible for 3years then he turned it around and became an All Pro. Imagine if we gave up on him after his rookie season...


We wouldn't have over paid to resign a corner who had little effect on the game. Just a guess.


Lol you say that like it was Nnamdis fault the rest of our defense was bad...


Isn't it obvious some here want to twist anything into a negative.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't advocating or arguing outside in or inside out. The point I was trying to make is that great teams hit on their picks. Not just one, not just two, but on multiple picks multiple years consecutively. And then hit on their FAs too. Whoever we pick, regardless of position, must be a hit. It's a much more important aspect than whether or not it's a DE, OT, or QB. Gotta be a star. And then another, and another. Then in the late rounds you gotta get steals. More than one, and for more than one year..

BTW, SFs roster strength goes back farther than 2010 or 11 or wherever you went with it. I don't care about a GMs reign, because he inherited players too. Players like Willis, V. Davis, and Gore for example, a big part of their success.

You gotta slam drafts and free agency for years to build a great team. One CB is only a potential big deal to teams like ours, because we miss left and right. This team is still looking like a .214 hitter in finding personnel. It's a bigger issue than draft philosophy at this point. If I felt McKenzie could identify draft gems at any specific position I'd feel better than I do right now about our chances. All we have seen so far is his ability to dumpster dive pretty well, finding UDFAs and value players. That's nice, but value players are only great depth and role players. Stars and pro bowlers drive the engine of a team and elevate the others by proximity. At this point I'd just like to see the guy put one really truly good draft or offseason under his belt. Not just a hopeful one, but one that is actually markedly skilled and significant. Otherwise it'll be another 11 years till we're significantly better.
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Speed_Wrench


Joined: 08 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
I wasn't advocating or arguing outside in or inside out. The point I was trying to make is that great teams hit on their picks. Not just one, not just two, but on multiple picks multiple years consecutively. And then hit on their FAs too. Whoever we pick, regardless of position, must be a hit. It's a much more important aspect than whether or not it's a DE, OT, or QB. Gotta be a star. And then another, and another. Then in the late rounds you gotta get steals. More than one, and for more than one year..

BTW, SFs roster strength goes back farther than 2010 or 11 or wherever you went with it. I don't care about a GMs reign, because he inherited players too. Players like Willis, V. Davis, and Gore for example, a big part of their success.

You gotta slam drafts and free agency for years to build a great team. One CB is only a potential big deal to teams like ours, because we miss left and right. This team is still looking like a .214 hitter in finding personnel. It's a bigger issue than draft philosophy at this point. If I felt McKenzie could identify draft gems at any specific position I'd feel better than I do right now about our chances. All we have seen so far is his ability to dumpster dive pretty well, finding UDFAs and value players. That's nice, but value players are only great depth and role players. Stars and pro bowlers drive the engine of a team and elevate the others by proximity. At this point I'd just like to see the guy put one really truly good draft or offseason under his belt. Not just a hopeful one, but one that is actually markedly skilled and significant. Otherwise it'll be another 11 years till we're significantly better.


Good post, I think as most do this is RM's shot he's been waiting for, the money for FA the full draft (less a 5th) but still a good draft slot, this is what we have been waiting 2 years for the reconstruction, I'm sure the roster is going to look vey different 9 months from now and hopefully different as in better. This is an exciting offseason for the team that we have not ever had before and it's going to be long but very exciting and I agree RM needs to hit on this off season.
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ch8878


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2014 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Bob Dobalina wrote:
I know that CB's take a while to develop and usually struggle early, but Hayden was brutally bad.


Hayden also had heart surgery and scare tissue removed last season.

Watson battled injuries all year.

I haven't gave up on either yet; fingers crossed.
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MrOaktown_56


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Obviously I'm a bit biased but i see a lot of promise in this draft.

1.Hayden: Hayden also was injured coming into training camp. I think we saw flashes of what he can do but the lack of continuity due to injuries hurt his play on the field, as it would for any player. If he can regain the instincts and crispness he showed as a senior, we could see a big hitting cornerback who covers fluidly. I won't call him a bust yet.

2.Watson: The guy will be 100% healthy and have more time with sparano building consistency. I remember him giving michael bennett problems at left tackle in the preseason game vs seattle so it would be exciting to see if he can take the next step. Remember, a ton of teams saw him as a 1st round pick

3.Sio Moore: He graded out among the top 10 4-3 linebackers according to pro football focus and had a stretch in the middle of the season where he was putting up good sack numbers, but that faded. He is a rookie though. I think if he improves a bit in coverage, he could become a very good linebacker. I've even heard some draft sites compare khalil mack and anthony barr to him on some level, which has to be a compliment. Very Happy

4.Tyler Wilson: Well, we got McGloin and he's shown that he has a nice arm and at worst is a very good backup for barely any money, both of which are wins. I think i may have made it clear but if him. pryor, and vets compete for the starting job, we'll have a capable qb emerge capable of starting 16 games and winning a good amount.

6.Stacy McGee: I had low expectations, but he flashed some ability and may be able to rotate in and out with sims and the nose tackle spot consistently. I think he graded out like a mid round rather than a late round pick based on production so not bad.

6.Mychal Rivera: I love the kid and I think he can continue to improve. I remember watching rivera take on clowney 1 on 1 vs tennessee on a play a couple of years back and take him out of the play so I know he can get better at blocking. As a receiver, he put up similar numbers to eiffert, ertz, and reed, while outperforming TE's selected before him like gavin escobar so I think he could become a denarius moore esque tight end based on the lateness of the pick and big play ability, if you know what I mean.

6.Nick Kasa: The guy is still developing so it'll be interesting to see what him and ausberry do. Wasn't a huge impact, but when are 6th round picks ever?

7.Brice Butler: Really strange because he had some crazy moments in preseason, but had some awful moments in regular season play, like the tipped interception vs the steelers.

7.David Bass: I had more hope for him, but he was cut. Yes, he did play for the bears, but its nbd because he has been pretty meh and it is the BEARS defense.

I think we will see some very good things out of these guys in 2014, which was the goal anyway.
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Speed_Wrench


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrOaktown_56 wrote:
Obviously I'm a bit biased but i see a lot of promise in this draft.

1.Hayden: Hayden also was injured coming into training camp. I think we saw flashes of what he can do but the lack of continuity due to injuries hurt his play on the field, as it would for any player. If he can regain the instincts and crispness he showed as a senior, we could see a big hitting cornerback who covers fluidly. I won't call him a bust yet.

2.Watson: The guy will be 100% healthy and have more time with sparano building consistency. I remember him giving michael bennett problems at left tackle in the preseason game vs seattle so it would be exciting to see if he can take the next step. Remember, a ton of teams saw him as a 1st round pick

3.Sio Moore: He graded out among the top 10 4-3 linebackers according to pro football focus and had a stretch in the middle of the season where he was putting up good sack numbers, but that faded. He is a rookie though. I think if he improves a bit in coverage, he could become a very good linebacker. I've even heard some draft sites compare khalil mack and anthony barr to him on some level, which has to be a compliment. Very Happy

4.Tyler Wilson: Well, we got McGloin and he's shown that he has a nice arm and at worst is a very good backup for barely any money, both of which are wins. I think i may have made it clear but if him. pryor, and vets compete for the starting job, we'll have a capable qb emerge capable of starting 16 games and winning a good amount.

6.Stacy McGee: I had low expectations, but he flashed some ability and may be able to rotate in and out with sims and the nose tackle spot consistently. I think he graded out like a mid round rather than a late round pick based on production so not bad.

6.Mychal Rivera: I love the kid and I think he can continue to improve. I remember watching rivera take on clowney 1 on 1 vs tennessee on a play a couple of years back and take him out of the play so I know he can get better at blocking. As a receiver, he put up similar numbers to eiffert, ertz, and reed, while outperforming TE's selected before him like gavin escobar so I think he could become a denarius moore esque tight end based on the lateness of the pick and big play ability, if you know what I mean.

6.Nick Kasa: The guy is still developing so it'll be interesting to see what him and ausberry do. Wasn't a huge impact, but when are 6th round picks ever?

7.Brice Butler: Really strange because he had some crazy moments in preseason, but had some awful moments in regular season play, like the tipped interception vs the steelers.

7.David Bass: I had more hope for him, but he was cut. Yes, he did play for the bears, but its nbd because he has been pretty meh and it is the BEARS defense.

I think we will see some very good things out of these guys in 2014, which was the goal anyway.


Good post, and I don't see any bias, your giving fair evaluations of the players potentials while taking note of some positives. I wouldn't call Hayden a bust for at least 2 more seasons, anyways like someone else said Nnamdi took 3 seasons before he finally shined.
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