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Raiders have received little production frm 2013 draft class
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Willis666


Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 350
Location: Mordhaus
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Willis666 wrote:
Reggiesucks wrote:
Willis666 wrote:


This is the key point that I think most people are missing. Reggie drafted Hayden and Watson not for immediate impacts, but because he saw them as key players for the future of this team.


This has got to be the dumbest post I have ever read in my life!!!!! The GM of a 4-12 team uses his 1st and 2nd round picks on players that he doesn't expect to have an immediate impact??? Are you serious?????? Shocked So I guess he's drafting them for the next GM because if they don't have an impact he won't be there when they finally start making plays. LOL


Think bout it. He drafts players that he thinks have star potential. He knew it was a risk by taking them both at the pick he did, so to him the reward potential must have outweighed the risk. I know it sounds completely idiotic for a GM to do that, but think outside the box. To many people are impatient and are ready to declare a player as a bust if they don't dominate immediately. Reggie has been thinking long term and when he selected Hayden and Watson then I believe he picked them for there long term potential. And if Reggie's gone and they do become stars then oh well, all the better for our next GM.


The simplest answer is usually the correct one. For a rebuilding team you must build inside out. Watson, ok, but Hayden? and he was prepared to draft him at #3.


Not gona disagree with you there. Hayden was a ?? for me as well, and I was hoping that one of the DT would be our pick. I'm just saying what I think was Reggie's mentality when he made the pick. I'm just happy that he was able to trade down and get that 2nd rounder.
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
Hayden will be ok, he looked good in patches last year, terrible in others, be was a rookie, 1st year corners almost always struggle...he'll be ok, expect a dramatic improvement next year and near pro-bowl levels in 2015


Hayden will go as the pass rush goes. Hence, the reason his position is classified as a perimeter player and the reason you build inside out. IMAGINE if we were dreaming about pairing UT Richardson and Clowney right now? It would be a DL to rival the Lions.

NFL GM's regularly take CBs high in the draft, because it is one of the most difficult and important positions in the NFL. You wet your pants over the Lions D-Line yet they had 10th most passing yards given up in the league and the 19th best yards per pass in the league. Wonder why that is, because surely there amazing D-Line would mask the deficiencies of any CBs as CBs don't matter?

Wait, CBs do matter.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5948
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
just wondering, If Reggie was willing to draft another player at #3 do people really except him to have said that? Confused


McKenzie has ALWAYS been very transparent for better or worse. Iirc, he offered that information he wasn't asked. Many still considered Hayden grossly overdrafted at #12 and lots of drafniks also thought the trade compensation was low (yeah, I know we're losers and had to take what we could get. I get your perspective. no need to rehash how they whole world is against us or how bad the draft was. Thanks. No directed at anyone in particular. ) so obviously the FO really really liked Hayden.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5948
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
For a rebuilding team you must build inside out. Watson, ok, but Hayden? and he was prepared to draft him at #3.


I know he said it, but IDK if I believe it. Reggie is a smart guy, I just have a hard time believing he was prepared to take anyone at 3 knowing that we had no 2nd rounder and a ton of needs. I think trading down was his plan all along, and his plan B.

I agree with the first part, though. I really wish we would focus on the trenches before anything else.

1) If McKenzie went into the draft thinking he would take any compensation to trade back, fire him now
2) If McKenzie had no contingency plan for #3 other than Hayden. Fire him now.

I would have a LOT more respect for the FO if they had said "Had we not gotten the additional pick it would have made addressing the OL that much imperative for a rebuilding team and we would have been FORCED to go another direction. (That takes NOTHING away from Hayden) However the addition 2nd rounder gave us the luxury of going BPA and Hayden was VERY high on our board." It ain't that hard.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5948
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Dreadymatt wrote:
Hayden will be ok, he looked good in patches last year, terrible in others, be was a rookie, 1st year corners almost always struggle...he'll be ok, expect a dramatic improvement next year and near pro-bowl levels in 2015


Hayden will go as the pass rush goes. Hence, the reason his position is classified as a perimeter player and the reason you build inside out. IMAGINE if we were dreaming about pairing UT Richardson and Clowney right now? It would be a DL to rival the Lions.

NFL GM's regularly take CBs high in the draft, because it is one of the most difficult and important positions in the NFL. You wet your pants over the Lions D-Line yet they had 10th most passing yards given up in the league and the 19th best yards per pass in the league. Wonder why that is, because surely there amazing D-Line would mask the deficiencies of any CBs as CBs don't matter?

Wait, CBs do matter.


Hmm, MAYBE it's because when you have the MOST feared offensive weapon in game in Megatron (as recently voted on PLAYERS) you are FORCED to throw to keep up. In recent history the Raiders had one of the best rated secondaries in the league best their run defense was so poor no one ever passed. Statistics are a tool to tell a part of the story.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 24742
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please read what you just wrote. That makes less than no sense. I posted an AVERAGE. The Raiders secondaries of yesteryear had good bulk numbers but sucky averages, because they weren't that good. The Lions secondary this year was a terrible unit and because of it there D was at best average. Ask any Lions fan.

Oh and the fearsome, amazing, terrifying Lions O who just FORCED teams to pass on them where 13th in the league in scoring and the Lions D where 14th in the league in pass attempts against.

You can keep pretending and making stuff up, but the facts are the facts.
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reddevil


Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Posts: 566
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
For a rebuilding team you must build inside out. Watson, ok, but Hayden? and he was prepared to draft him at #3.


I know he said it, but IDK if I believe it. Reggie is a smart guy, I just have a hard time believing he was prepared to take anyone at 3 knowing that we had no 2nd rounder and a ton of needs. I think trading down was his plan all along, and his plan B.

I agree with the first part, though. I really wish we would focus on the trenches before anything else.

1) If McKenzie went into the draft thinking he would take any compensation to trade back, fire him now
2) If McKenzie had no contingency plan for #3 other than Hayden. Fire him now.

I would have a LOT more respect for the FO if they had said "Had we not gotten the additional pick it would have made addressing the OL that much imperative for a rebuilding team and we would have been FORCED to go another direction. (That takes NOTHING away from Hayden) However the addition 2nd rounder gave us the luxury of going BPA and Hayden was VERY high on our board." It ain't that hard.


I think you may be putting too much into Reggie's statement re: Hayden. We know that they liked Hayden (obviously as they picked him and also because we heard prior to the draft from a number of sources) and we know that Reggie wanted to trade out of the pick (again - cos he did it... and we knew prior to the draft that he wanted more picks). He got what he wanted. One of the players he liked and an extra pick. We all know how much you liked Richardson. And you were spot on with that because he has been a beast, but for one reason or another Reggie didn't fancy him. So after the draft Reggie wanted to boost the confidence of his top pick and at the same time big up the job he had done - getting his top player and getting another pick. Seems like a fairly bog standard sporting managerial statement to me.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bump head with you cats latah!
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5772
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uggh, so many arguments board wide about which position is most important and whom to draft..

Guess what - stacked teams win championships and playoff games. Flawed teams lose those games. Bad teams lose alot. It ain't rocket science when looked at that way.

The guy we draft in the 1st will not magically make this a good team. We gotta hit on that one and alot more than that. If we pick the wrong it's just another obstacle to ever being good. But whether he's a WR or a DE or a QB is not the major issue going on here at all.

Look at Seattle, SF, Denver. These are stacked teams, front to back. ALL positions.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5948
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
Please read what you just wrote. That makes less than no sense. I posted an AVERAGE. The Raiders secondaries of yesteryear had good bulk numbers but sucky averages, because they weren't that good. The Lions secondary this year was a terrible unit and because of it there D was at best average. Ask any Lions fan.

Oh and the fearsome, amazing, terrifying Lions O who just FORCED teams to pass on them where 13th in the league in scoring and the Lions D where 14th in the league in pass attempts against.

You can keep pretending and making stuff up, but the facts are the facts.


Let me redirect my entire argument.

I was able to easily predict the Hayden would struggle because absent a pass rush ALL CBs struggle regardless of how good they are hence you gamble on a pass rusher before the perimeter CB. A B grade defensive lineman trumps an A+ CB every time which is why you wait in the draft to pick a CB. Yes! Detroit's secondary does suck and needs attention however you would never put the apple cart before the horse as the Raiders have done as it is pointless, as Hayden has proven, to continue to build outside in absent a pass rush.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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Pozzi


Joined: 21 Aug 2012
Posts: 369
Location: Carson City, NV
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i still have faith in hayden. he's got the physical ability and hopefully the game slows down for him, and can we please please please get our defensive backs a pass rush. this crap has got to end.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 5948
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Uggh, so many arguments board wide about which position is most important and whom to draft..

Guess what - stacked teams win championships and playoff games. Flawed teams lose those games. Bad teams lose alot. It ain't rocket science when looked at that way.

The guy we draft in the 1st will not magically make this a good team. We gotta hit on that one and alot more than that. If we pick the wrong it's just another obstacle to ever being good. But whether he's a WR or a DE or a QB is not the major issue going on here at all.

Look at Seattle, SF, Denver. These are stacked teams, front to back. ALL positions.


Look at how those teams were built. Outside in! Let's track the first two picks of the 49ers since Baalke actually had major influence on the draft as VP of Player Personnel:
2010
1- OT Davis
1- OG Iupati
2011
1- DE Smith
2- QB Keapernick
2012
1- WR Jenkins
2- RB James
2013
1- FS Reid
2- DE Carradine

66.7% of his 1st three draft picks have been in the trenches BEFORE he went after a QB. 62.5% of his total draft picks have been either in the trenches or QB. 2000 was the last time the 49ers used one of their first two picks on a CB.

Last 10 years Ravens:
2003
1-DE Suggs
1- QB Boller
2004
2- DT Edwards
3- WR Darling
2005
1- WR Clayton
2- DT Cody
2006
1- DT Ngata
2- C CHester
2007
1- OG Grubbs
3- WR Figurs
2008
1- Flacco
2- Rice
2009
1- OT Oher
2- DE Kruger
2010
2- LB Kindle
2- Cody
2011
1- CB Smith
2- WR Smith
2012
2- LB Upshaw
2- OT Osemele
2013
1- FS Elam
2- MLB Brown

Look how often the Ravens have drafted a CB high and ONLY after investing a multitude of picks in the trenches.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 24742
Location: Wonderland
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
91jmay wrote:
Please read what you just wrote. That makes less than no sense. I posted an AVERAGE. The Raiders secondaries of yesteryear had good bulk numbers but sucky averages, because they weren't that good. The Lions secondary this year was a terrible unit and because of it there D was at best average. Ask any Lions fan.

Oh and the fearsome, amazing, terrifying Lions O who just FORCED teams to pass on them where 13th in the league in scoring and the Lions D where 14th in the league in pass attempts against.

You can keep pretending and making stuff up, but the facts are the facts.


Let me redirect my entire argument.

I was able to easily predict the Hayden would struggle because absent a pass rush ALL CBs struggle regardless of how good they are hence you gamble on a pass rusher before the perimeter CB. A B grade defensive lineman trumps an A+ CB every time which is why you wait in the draft to pick a CB. Yes! Detroit's secondary does suck and needs attention however you would never put the apple cart before the horse as the Raiders have done as it is pointless, as Hayden has proven, to continue to build outside in absent a pass rush.

Seattle does not have a great pass rush, but has an elite secondary which makes up for it. There are many ways to skin a cat.

Also, your original argument about the Lions was also flat out, dead wrong. That's all there is to that.
Other than perhaps QB, a B grade player NEVER trumps an A+ player. That's need based drafting and why bad teams stay bad.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
91jmay wrote:
Please read what you just wrote. That makes less than no sense. I posted an AVERAGE. The Raiders secondaries of yesteryear had good bulk numbers but sucky averages, because they weren't that good. The Lions secondary this year was a terrible unit and because of it there D was at best average. Ask any Lions fan.

Oh and the fearsome, amazing, terrifying Lions O who just FORCED teams to pass on them where 13th in the league in scoring and the Lions D where 14th in the league in pass attempts against.

You can keep pretending and making stuff up, but the facts are the facts.


Let me redirect my entire argument.

I was able to easily predict the Hayden would struggle because absent a pass rush ALL CBs struggle regardless of how good they are hence you gamble on a pass rusher before the perimeter CB. A B grade defensive lineman trumps an A+ CB every time which is why you wait in the draft to pick a CB. Yes! Detroit's secondary does suck and needs attention however you would never put the apple cart before the horse as the Raiders have done as it is pointless, as Hayden has proven, to continue to build outside in absent a pass rush.

Seattle does not have a great pass rush, but has an elite secondary which makes up for it. There are many ways to skin a cat.

Also, your original argument about the Lions was also flat out, dead wrong. That's all there is to that.
Other than perhaps QB, a B grade player NEVER trumps an A+ player. That's need based drafting and why bad teams stay bad.


Talk about flat out wrong Seatlle has the highest rate pass rush in the league by far and 3 pass rushers rated in the Top 15! and I said a B grade DL trumps an A+ CB. Thanks.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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91jmay


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 24742
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2014 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to who? Seattle has a good pass rush, but the reason for high sack numbers and a great pass defence is there secondary. Its all time great.
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