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GM Rick Spielman - his good moves and his dumb ones
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milanb


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
milanb wrote:
his failure to get along with Leslie Frazier should set off a lot of alarm bells.

why? he wanted a better coach.

what is wrong with that?


It looked a lot more like an exercise in shifting the blame for a lot of bad personnel decisions over the years.

Frazier's not the one who drafted Christian Ponder ahead of Pro Bowl DEs Ryan Kerrigan and Robert Quinn, and yet Frazier's the one who took the fall for a team that was losing because of bad QB play, no pass rush and a bizarre front office decision to parachute Josh Freeman into the starter's job.

Zimmer and Norv were not born yesterday. They know how these things work. Leslie Frazier is well-respected throughout the league as both a coach and a human being. Plus the coaches are something of a fraternity; they all know each other. I will be very surprised if Zimmer and Norv are not at least somewhat wary of the situation that they've stepped into.

If past behaviour is at all indicative of future behaviour, Krauser will write a long-winded diatribe on why everything I just wrote is somehow incorrect...
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sigh...
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Krauser


Joined: 20 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
It looked a lot more like an exercise in shifting the blame for a lot of bad personnel decisions over the years.

Frazier's not the one who drafted Christian Ponder ahead of Pro Bowl DEs Ryan Kerrigan and Robert Quinn, and yet Frazier's the one who took the fall for a team that was losing because of bad QB play, no pass rush and a bizarre front office decision to parachute Josh Freeman into the starter's job.

Zimmer and Norv were not born yesterday. They know how these things work. Leslie Frazier is well-respected throughout the league as both a coach and a human being. Plus the coaches are something of a fraternity; they all know each other. I will be very surprised if Zimmer and Norv are not at least somewhat wary of the situation that they've stepped into.

If past behaviour is at all indicative of future behaviour, Krauser will write a long-winded diatribe on why everything I just wrote is somehow incorrect...


Seriously? I don't remember urinating in your cheerios this morning, why are you on my case?

Don't know why you're so bitter -- it's just a discussion, we're all fans of the same team. A team that most people think is improving, heading in the right direction. You still disagree?

Seems that most everything you hate about Spielman comes down to feeling sorry for Leslie Frazier. Why is he so important to you? Where do you get the idea that he's such a great coach? As a DC, his defenses were never any better than expected (given multiple Pro Bowl talents). As a HC he struggled with game planning and time management, his roster decisions were questionable, and rookies under his tutelage didn't develop (especially in what should've been his area of expertise, the secondary). Obviously Frazier is a good person, but that doesn't mean that everything that happened during his tenure with the Vikings was someone else's fault.
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since72


Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 3561
PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
milanb wrote:
his failure to get along with Leslie Frazier should set off a lot of alarm bells.

why? he wanted a better coach.

what is wrong with that?


It looked a lot more like an exercise in shifting the blame for a lot of bad personnel decisions over the years.

Frazier's not the one who drafted Christian Ponder ahead of Pro Bowl DEs Ryan Kerrigan and Robert Quinn, and yet Frazier's the one who took the fall for a team that was losing because of bad QB play, no pass rush and a bizarre front office decision to parachute Josh Freeman into the starter's job.

Zimmer and Norv were not born yesterday. They know how these things work. Leslie Frazier is well-respected throughout the league as both a coach and a human being. Plus the coaches are something of a fraternity; they all know each other. I will be very surprised if Zimmer and Norv are not at least somewhat wary of the situation that they've stepped into.

If past behaviour is at all indicative of future behaviour, Krauser will write a long-winded diatribe on why everything I just wrote is somehow incorrect...


Everything is not incorrect. Just one-sided.

I remember two games this past season where the players themselves blamed the DC for calling the wrong formation in the final minutes of the game and handing a win to the opponent on a silver platter. I've heard fans complain about OC's and DC's before, but I don't remember players complaining about the coaches blowing it for them like that. Put in a competent DC and you have a 7-8-1 record last year and in the mix to win the division.

No pass rush? Jared Allen came within one sack of breaking the NFL single season record under Frazier. I think they had the personnel. The coaching and schemes were sub-par.
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SodakViking


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
milanb wrote:
his failure to get along with Leslie Frazier should set off a lot of alarm bells.

why? he wanted a better coach.

what is wrong with that?


It looked a lot more like an exercise in shifting the blame for a lot of bad personnel decisions over the years.

Frazier's not the one who drafted Christian Ponder ahead of Pro Bowl DEs Ryan Kerrigan and Robert Quinn, and yet Frazier's the one who took the fall for a team that was losing because of bad QB play, no pass rush and a bizarre front office decision to parachute Josh Freeman into the starter's job.

Zimmer and Norv were not born yesterday. They know how these things work. Leslie Frazier is well-respected throughout the league as both a coach and a human being. Plus the coaches are something of a fraternity; they all know each other. I will be very surprised if Zimmer and Norv are not at least somewhat wary of the situation that they've stepped into.

If past behaviour is at all indicative of future behaviour, Krauser will write a long-winded diatribe on why everything I just wrote is somehow incorrect...


This type of response is really productive.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How about we just state that Rick Spielman and Leslie Frazier were not a good match as GM and HC, because they had differing visions of how it should have worked...and leave it at that?

They both made some good decisions, they both made some clearly poor ones. But, in the end, they had their differences about which way was the most productive for the organization's future and it was necessary for them to part ways.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it could also be noted that Leslie Frazier interviewed with teams in previous years for head coaching positions something like seven times. but with no hire until the Vikings.

so as good as a human being as he is, which is not in question, no one felt willing to employ and trust him as their team's coaching leader even though multiple non-Spielman related opportunities were present.

using Frazier as some form of criticism of Spielman is fairly ridiculous. Frazier did not perform, did not produce. last year, the unit he supposedly specializes in LOST games for us in the final minute and seconds. the offense, as anemic and fragile as it was, at least had the lead in the score going in to the final series multiple times.

he did not even have a very stellar record as a defensive coordinator.
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milanb


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:



Seems that most everything you hate about Spielman comes down to feeling sorry for Leslie Frazier. Why is he so important to you? Where do you get the idea that he's such a great coach?



One could ask the same thing about you and Rick Spielman. You seem to have created your own model of the universe where Spielman is the greatest thing to happen to the game since pointy footballs.


Krauser wrote:


As a DC, his defenses were never any better than expected (given multiple Pro Bowl talents). As a HC he struggled with game planning and time management, his roster decisions were questionable, and rookies under his tutelage didn't develop (especially in what should've been his area of expertise, the secondary). Obviously Frazier is a good person, but that doesn't mean that everything that happened during his tenure with the Vikings was someone else's fault.


And yet, the Vikings players who stood up for him in the end included Adrian Peterson and Jared Allen. It took all of four days for Lovie Smith to hire Frazier as DC in Tampa Bay. With all due respect, I value their football knowledge more than I do yours.

I could also point out that the Vikings' first three picks this year were two pass rushers and a QB, which is something of a tacit admission by Zimmer and Spielman as to where the team's biggest on-field problems lay last year.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
One could ask the same thing about you and Rick Spielman. You seem to have created your own model of the universe where Spielman is the greatest thing to happen to the game since pointy footballs.

why do you go in to this childish hyperbole? i stopped reading your entire post at this point.

you are too intelligent and articulate to stoop to juvenile debate tactics like this.

very disappointing.
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Krauser


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Krauser wrote:



Seems that most everything you hate about Spielman comes down to feeling sorry for Leslie Frazier. Why is he so important to you? Where do you get the idea that he's such a great coach?



One could ask the same thing about you and Rick Spielman. You seem to have created your own model of the universe where Spielman is the greatest thing to happen to the game since pointy footballs.


That's not true.

I've criticized Spielman for, among other things:
-- drafting Ponder
-- failing to replace Pat Williams
-- bringing in Freeman
-- some mediocre free agent signings (Carlson etc)
-- letting Winfield go (though the circumstances forced his hand)

I've also said the TOA version of the Vikings failed, and he gets some credit for the near-success (2009) but also blame for the fact that there was nothing left when that team fell apart.

So you continue to distort what I'm saying. I guess that means you're having trouble making a more reasonable argument?

milanb wrote:
And yet, the Vikings players who stood up for him in the end included Adrian Peterson and Jared Allen. It took all of four days for Lovie Smith to hire Frazier as DC in Tampa Bay. With all due respect, I value their football knowledge more than I do yours.

I could also point out that the Vikings' first three picks this year were two pass rushers and a QB, which is something of a tacit admission by Zimmer and Spielman as to where the team's biggest on-field problems lay last year.


"Tacit admission", like they're trying to get away with it?

No kidding, they need a QB and to improve the front 7.

My argument wasn't that the front 7 didn't need to be upgraded this year, it was that they kept the old guard in place for as long as they did because they had basically nothing else on the team in 2011 (no QB, bad WRs, no LT, bad DBs). The front 7 held up pretty well until 2013, and even then the main failing was that NT never got replaced (Spielman's fault), Greenway declined suddenly (sooner than anyone expected) and the scheme was vanilla (Frazier's fault).

You want them to draft Quinn in 2011 -- he'd hardly have seen the field until 2014. Jared Allen got 95% of the snaps in that position every year, and that was the way Frazier liked it. Obviously Quinn's a better player than Ponder, but they didn't have a QB in 2011, they had to take somebody. At least make it Amukamara (sp?), he would've been a major asset to the team these past few years.
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milanb


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
milanb wrote:
One could ask the same thing about you and Rick Spielman. You seem to have created your own model of the universe where Spielman is the greatest thing to happen to the game since pointy footballs.

why do you go in to this childish hyperbole?


My apologies.

I somewhat lost my patience here. I should probably cool it for a while.

Embarassed
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Kellerman


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What did Frazier do to suddenly deserve all this credit after the fact? The critique is not that Frazier was a bad people manager, horrible with the media, just that he was out of his depth coaching as an NFL head coach.

I was happy with the Vikes retaining Frazier after the 2013 season, but he did not live up to expectations.

Problems were rife, from bad game-management, to an inflexible defensive scheme, to holding on to aging veterans in the line-up, etc. Those are not FO matters, those are the responsibility of the head coach. Then you have the fact that Frazier, a supposed defensive-minded coach, let the defense slide to historically bad levels during his tenure:

2011: 2nd in points allowed (defense)
2012: 17th in points allowed (defense)
2013: 2nd in points allowed (defense)

That's bad. I don't buy that it was all due to personnel, which is indicated by the one year swing back to average in 2012 (carried by an immense AP). This defense has consistently failed to deliver over the years, that alone should be a fireable offense for a defensive head coach.

In opinion, Spielman has made two very bad errors since 2011. I think you can guess the one. The other is keeping Frazier, when he was clearly miscast as a head coach.

PS: I hope for Frazier's sake that he does well with the Bucs. That said, I can't see him ever getting another shot at being a head coach, especially at his age.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
milanb wrote:
One could ask the same thing about you and Rick Spielman. You seem to have created your own model of the universe where Spielman is the greatest thing to happen to the game since pointy footballs.

why do you go in to this childish hyperbole?


My apologies.

I somewhat lost my patience here. I should probably cool it for a while.

Embarassed

well milanb, i want you to understand you are very well respected on this site. certainly by me, and i know by many others.

you may have a critical opinion of the Vikings at times, but so what? that's certainly allowed, and even encouraged here, no matter what anyone has to say to that. opinions are opinions, and discourse is discourse.

but do keep in mind the reason you are respected is because you have a long history of being able to respectfully articulate your positions. it saddens me when you and/or Krauser drift toward a more personally biting means to deliver your views.

let's talk football! Very Happy
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Krauser


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FTR I think Frazier is a good coach for good players. He's good at getting talented people to perform at a high level. I'm not surprised that Peterson and Allen like him, they're elite, and they excelled under Frazier.

I think he's not very good at maximizing the benefit of lesser talents, whether that's by coaching/developing or scheming/game planning. The kind of thing that a Belichick can do, winning every year no matter who's hurt, throwing in some late rounder and a street free agent and still getting it done.

Zimmer has that kind of reputation, got a lot of mileage out of the talent in Cinci.

Frazier is well suited to the Bucs, a team with a lot of talent. I think they'll do well on defense. I wish him well, he seems like a good guy.
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milanb


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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2014 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
milanb wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
milanb wrote:
One could ask the same thing about you and Rick Spielman. You seem to have created your own model of the universe where Spielman is the greatest thing to happen to the game since pointy footballs.

why do you go in to this childish hyperbole?


My apologies.

I somewhat lost my patience here. I should probably cool it for a while.

Embarassed

well milanb, i want you to understand you are very well respected on this site. certainly by me, and i know by many others.

you may have a critical opinion of the Vikings at times, but so what? that's certainly allowed, and even encouraged here, no matter what anyone has to say to that. opinions are opinions, and discourse is discourse.

but do keep in mind the reason you are respected is because you have a long history of being able to respectfully articulate your positions. it saddens me when you and/or Krauser drift toward a more personally biting means to deliver your views.

let's talk football! Very Happy


Thanks, VD.

I think I'm just having a bad day, week, or whatever and should just cool my heels for a bit.
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