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Jrry32 Early December Mock - TRADES!
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 45235
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEE RAWL wrote:
I disagree with everyone, Mike Evans is a big time WR.

Just for one example, you know that deep PA pass that Given dropped?

Yeahhhh, thats exactly the play that Evans would make 10 out of 10 times. And not Im not saying that makes him worthy of a top 10 selection, but Evans will make those plays and a lot more.

How about when Clemons ripped it deep to Tavon and he was blanketed? Yeah Mike Evans would be able to make that play too.

It will really depends how well he tests at the combine, maybe he is worthy of a top ten maybe he isnt, but he would greatly help this team.


Exactly. Missouri does a good job of stopping him(even with admittedly giving EJ Gaines, a talented CB prospect, safety help) and Manziel and suddenly the guy isn't good. Puhlease.

It amazes me how angry people get on this forum then when it comes time to pull the trigger, they forget.

I haven't forgotten. I've been trying to give our WRs a chance to come around but thus far, I've continued to see the drops and poor play that held Sam back. Tavon is progressing. Stedman is progressing. Quick is inconsistent. Givens is inconsistent. We have a bunch of guys that show flashes. I know Tavon will get there. I feel confident Stedman will too.

But beyond those two guys, I don't know what we'll get out of Givens or Quick.

I do know that Evans is the big, sure-handed WR people here have been begging for...saying that if Sam had this, Sam would tear it up.

WELL HERE'S YOUR CHANCE. We have a shot to complement the speed we have with the big sure-handed jump ball WR that you all agree Sam could use. And yet nobody here wants him? Come on guys.

As far as Barksdale, I disagree, Lunatic. He's a plenty competent starter. Might even end up being a good one. He wouldn't stop me from taking an elite OT prospect...but in this mock, I had Evans as better value...especially with the trade down.

Also, I know at least one person didn't like the Ogbuehi pick...why? That's exactly the type of guy we need. I'm trying to give Sam help but you guys are doing your damnedest to turn that help away. Wink
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEE RAWL wrote:
Again, interesting. And while I see the Browns trade being very plausable, the second trade with the Saints is a nice idea, but I can only hope we could get more.


While I like the Evans pick, most of the others seem to be reaching a bit. I can very much appreciate Donald and Joyner as prospects, but IMO the 2nd is too early for them.

I know very little about the other prospects, but I have caught up on Fales and his ability and will be adding him into my next mock. The shootout he had with Carr was quite entertaining.

Overall I would feel just ok about this draft if it went like this.


I think you take them where you can get them. We have the picks...why risk it unless you don't think highly of them?

If you don't, watch Donald closely again. Give him another shot. Trust me. That kid would be scary here. With his ability to rush the passer next to Brockers, Quinn and Long...our DL would be a nightmare.

As far as Joyner, I think he makes a lot of sense because he offers things we sorely need such as...safety/CB versatility, RELIABLE TACKLING and the ability to man up in the slot.
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The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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Boboso20


Joined: 21 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
Flatlyner wrote:
Really not a fan of the first round picks in this mock. Honestly would hate Evans as our first pick. I'm not terribly impressed with him and certainly not enough to pick him that high. Would love the Fales pick, but think he goes higher then that when it comes down to it. Really love the Joyner pick, think he is a impact player.

I'd much rather just take Mathews with our first pick then settle for Evans


We're not settling for Evans. It's amazing to me how people in this forum always use Sam's weapons to say that he doesn't have help and he'll play better if we gave him some.

Now, we have a chance to get Sam a weapon. A weapon who doesn't drop a lot of passes. A weapon that can win 50/50 jump balls. A weapon with the size to be a major threat in the red-zone. A weapon that complements Tavon Austin extremely well. A weapon that has done amazing things in the SEC as a freshman and sophomore.

But we're settling for that guy. Please, tell the gigantic flaws in Evans's game that make him such an unappealing pick. Are they his extremely soft hands? Are they his strength at the catch point? Are they his size and physicality? Are they his deceptive speed? Are they his ability to win jump balls?

As far as I know, those are all things we're begging for. So do people actually want those things? Do they actually want a potential #1 WR? Do you guys want to give Sam top tier weapons? Or is this all talk?

Mike Evans is a taller Alshon Jeffery. And Alshon Jeffery would have been a top 10 pick after his sophomore year before the weight concerns popped up. That's the price you pay for a guy that can play the football the way those two guys do.

And let me ask you, how often do you see WRs with that strong of hands "bust"?


This!!! Im on board with the evans pick since he is always open even if he isn't. He's a big weapon we need since all our WR besides quick look small. He can be a weapon in the red zone and Sam can just throw it up and Evans will come down with it most of the time similar to what stafford does with megatron. Evans reminds me of boldin since he just out muscles corners but can has the hops to catch a fade like Brandon Marshall.
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Boboso20


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dnt know much about the Donald kid but I would love Easley from Florida in the 2nd only thing is he tore his ACL and his rookie year will be hindered a bit.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry, come on, Johnny's Sandlot football does not happen in the NFL. Those type of plays are not a regular occurrence. Im not talking about a QB scrambling a bit and finding a guy coming back to him. Im talking about the Crazy plays that are so memorable because they never happen (McNabb to FredEx, Eli to Tyree) are a regular occurrence for Evans to take advantage of just about every single Saturday because Manziel is so special like that.

I think Evans is a good WR, he could be great, but I dont think he is absolutely Elite. And those are the only type of offensive weapons that should go that high (Calvin, AJ, Julio, AP, Vernon Davis). Its a short list of absolute Freaks who are also phenomenal at most aspects of their position that should go that High in the Draft.

If Mike Evans speed is as good as many want to claim it is (Which I HIGHLY doubt), then yes, we can have a discussion about him in the Top 8-10. But until then, he is a sure-handed, powerhouse possession receiver to me. Which yes, that is very valuable, but am I spending a Top 10 pick on a Possession receiver? Especially if there is potentially a Franchise Tackle sitting there? No. I am not passing on Impact players like that to take an upgrade on something we potentially already have (2 of them with Quick & Cook) with the #7 overall pick. And dont mistake that as saying Q or Cook are as good as Evans like someone will surely try to say I said here shortly, but its the same dimension that we already have.

If Evans is the guy we HAVE to have, then make the move up with the other pick, because Im honestly not that scared at this point that he wouldn't be there at #15 for us. But if he wont be, use part of the Ransom you just got with the trade down (#2 to #7 better be more than a 2nd rounder) to jump up to #12 or whatever while also still getting an absolutely Elite talent at #7. Because while I didnt like getting Tavon at #8 I understood the situation. But in this draft the WR spot isnt as bare as last year. Marqise Lee and Sammy Watkins are better than Hopkins and Corderelle. Some might even put those guys ahead of Evans through the Pre-Draft process.

Im not against the pick, Im against where the pick is being made. And my only point with the Mizzou thing was that if he was truly that Elite, he would have gotten open, gotten separation, and made plays against a defense that wasnt forcing JFF to run around like crazy.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rrrrrrrams wrote:
StLunatic88 wrote:

Also Im not sure hwy everyone is OK with Barksdale as the RT in the long term. Yes he has been nice at Run Blocking, but his pass blocking is scarry, and he is getting a good amount of help over there. As well as Jake Long being less than impressive I think getting a young and potentially dominant OT in on this team should be top priority. And lets be honest, Saffold can still go at LT, now he has shown he can hold up at RT (could be darn good there in a ZBS) and can even work as a Guard, he isnt likely to come back at all.


yeah, barksdale and long are not that good, but saffold is?
so why did he lost first his job at lt to long and then his job at rt to barksdale?
the same logic could be used to tell the world over and over again, that jason smith could be a great rt...
Wow talk about reaching because youre still bitter about who knows what?

Nothing I said about Saffold has anything to do with what we should do with Long or Barksdale. What I said about Saffold, what I have said since the day we signed Long, is that he will want to go somewhere he gets the chance at LT, and his versatility ontop of that will likely cause some team to overpay, or atleast pay him more than he is worth to us (which is no longer as a LT)

But go on and keep trying


Last edited by StLunatic88 on Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DEE RAWL


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
DEE RAWL wrote:
Again, interesting. And while I see the Browns trade being very plausable, the second trade with the Saints is a nice idea, but I can only hope we could get more.


While I like the Evans pick, most of the others seem to be reaching a bit. I can very much appreciate Donald and Joyner as prospects, but IMO the 2nd is too early for them.

I know very little about the other prospects, but I have caught up on Fales and his ability and will be adding him into my next mock. The shootout he had with Carr was quite entertaining.

Overall I would feel just ok about this draft if it went like this.


I think you take them where you can get them. We have the picks...why risk it unless you don't think highly of them?

If you don't, watch Donald closely again. Give him another shot. Trust me. That kid would be scary here. With his ability to rush the passer next to Brockers, Quinn and Long...our DL would be a nightmare.

As far as Joyner, I think he makes a lot of sense because he offers things we sorely need such as...safety/CB versatility, RELIABLE TACKLING and the ability to man up in the slot.


I have watched a lot on Donald, and if he was bigger he would be a first rounder hands down, the dude lives in the backfield and most of the time just cant be blocked. However he doesnt go against the greatest OL competition. I think he can be had in the 3rd, same with Joyner whom I also like. Im just getting picky though (no pun intended), I have no issues with the picks just where they are being made. You make a good point though, if you want them you dont wait around, you take them.
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jrry32


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

StLunatic88 wrote:
jrry, come on, Johnny's Sandlot football does not happen in the NFL. Those type of plays are not a regular occurrence. Im not talking about a QB scrambling a bit and finding a guy coming back to him. Im talking about the Crazy plays that are so memorable because they never happen (McNabb to FredEx, Eli to Tyree) are a regular occurrence for Evans to take advantage of just about every single Saturday because Manziel is so special like that.


These plays also involve Evans making amazing plays. He's not just taking advantage, many of the plays, he ultimately made.

Keep in mind that Evans also isn't reliant on Johnny's sandlot football...don't confuse Manziel's flaws with Evans's.

Quote:
If Mike Evans speed is as good as many want to claim it is (Which I HIGHLY doubt), then yes, we can have a discussion about him in the Top 8-10. But until then, he is a sure-handed, powerhouse possession receiver to me. Which yes, that is very valuable, but am I spending a Top 10 pick on a Possession receiver? Especially if there is potentially a Franchise Tackle sitting there? No. I am not passing on Impact players like that to take an upgrade on something we potentially already have (2 of them with Quick & Cook) with the #7 overall pick. And dont mistake that as saying Q or Cook are as good as Evans like someone will surely try to say I said here shortly, but its the same dimension that we already have.


Again, people said the same thing about Alshon. He's a possession WR. Evans is not a possession WR. Neither was Alshon. Both guys were exceptional deep ball WRs in the SEC for a reason.

Quote:
If Evans is the guy we HAVE to have, then make the move up with the other pick, because Im honestly not that scared at this point that he wouldn't be there at #15 for us. But if he wont be, use part of the Ransom you just got with the trade down (#2 to #7 better be more than a 2nd rounder) to jump up to #12 or whatever while also still getting an absolutely Elite talent at #7. Because while I didnt like getting Tavon at #8 I understood the situation. But in this draft the WR spot isnt as bare as last year. Marqise Lee and Sammy Watkins are better than Hopkins and Corderelle. Some might even put those guys ahead of Evans through the Pre-Draft process.


People often make mistakes. Sammy is an impressive athlete but he's not offering us what we need and I'll take Evans over him and Lee.

Quote:
Im not against the pick, Im against where the pick is being made. And my only point with the Mizzou thing was that if he was truly that Elite, he would have gotten open, gotten separation, and made plays against a defense that wasnt forcing JFF to run around like crazy.


And yet Calvin, Julio and AJ Green all had bad games in college.

As far as Manziel not running around like crazy, that's a big reason why. Manziel played bad football because Missouri wouldn't let him run around like crazy and made it their game-plan to take Evans away. Evans is still just one player. If you go out of your way to stop him, you can find a way especially if his QB isn't playing well.

But Evans is a guy that makes you sweat every time you leave him one on one.
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The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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DEE RAWL


Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Which we get all the time because people stack the box and dont respect our WRs.

You cant leave Austin 1 on 1 and you cant leave Evans 1 on 1, if you do they will make you pay. Could be a scary complimenting duo. Pairing that with the run game and a QB in Bradford who make all the throws... Yikes.
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StLunatic88


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was with you on Alshon, so that argument holds no water with me. I dont see the same things in Evans that Alshon was doing. And honestly I think you are going alittle overboard using the past 6-7 weeks as proof that Alshon was worth a Top 10 pick, because that is a stretch. Especially while being on an Offense with arguably the Top dual-threat RB, a Top 5 WR, and a Top 10 TE and a coach that specializes in these types of offenses. People could have pointed to last year, and said he was lucky to go in the 2nd, that would have been wrong, but he was not this player last year.

Evans is a good prospect, but Like I said, to take an Weapon over one of the Major Draft positions (QB, LT, Rusher, CB) I feel like they have to be truly and undeniably Elite. And if Evans Proves that he truly does have that Speed (cuz honestly he hasn't been going up against many Top CBs to gauge) then we have a different situation. Because it is a misconception that SEC Speed applies to the Secondary, all major conferences have speed back there, the "SEC Speed" is a thing because the Front 7 have the same type of Speed and the Secondary in all conferences.

If we are still in the Top 7, With atleast 2 or maybe 3 QBs going, as well as Clowney, I would think Mathews or Barr could still be there. (LT/Rusher) and I would still have to heavily debate Evans vs Lewan after all the athleticism and power he has displayed when I watch him. But regardless of who is still there, Evans is not a Top 10 lock Prospect to me, so Im not going to be sold on that from what I have seen this year. Alshon Proved everyone wrong by running in the 4.4s at the Combine, but teams ignored it due to the "lazy" tag. If Evans can legitimately do the same thing, then I will change my tune.
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FRO


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I like Sammy Watkins more than Mike Evans, but I think both are blue chip WR prospects. We currently do not have anybody that projects to be a number 1 WR. Austin is showing brilliant flashes and needs some work on his route running to be that dominate slot WR I think he is capable of. Bailey and Givens can be number 2 types, but neither are sure things. As far as Quick, who knows. He hasn't produced much at a and we are 2 years into it with him. Pettis is a number 4 at best.

Bottom line is we have the opportunity to get a potentially dominate number 1, that opportunity doesn't come around often so you better jump all over it when you can. We haven't had a true number 1 since Holt, how long ago was that?
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DEE RAWL


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FRO wrote:
Personally I like Sammy Watkins more than Mike Evans, but I think both are blue chip WR prospects. We currently do not have anybody that projects to be a number 1 WR. Austin is showing brilliant flashes and needs some work on his route running to be that dominate slot WR I think he is capable of. Bailey and Givens can be number 2 types, but neither are sure things. As far as Quick, who knows. He hasn't produced much at a and we are 2 years into it with him. Pettis is a number 4 at best.

Bottom line is we have the opportunity to get a potentially dominate number 1, that opportunity doesn't come around often so you better jump all over it when you can. We haven't had a true number 1 since Holt, how long ago was that?


I still dont understand the Pettis hate. He may not be a #1, but a #4???? What the heck?
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kgarrett12486


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEE RAWL wrote:
I still dont understand the Pettis hate. He may not be a #1, but a #4???? What the heck?


Honestly, I don't care what he's labeled as (#1 thru #5)...

He is what he is, a guy who can move the chains and has red zone potential. It's a piece that has a place on this roster...
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FRO


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DEE RAWL wrote:
FRO wrote:
Personally I like Sammy Watkins more than Mike Evans, but I think both are blue chip WR prospects. We currently do not have anybody that projects to be a number 1 WR. Austin is showing brilliant flashes and needs some work on his route running to be that dominate slot WR I think he is capable of. Bailey and Givens can be number 2 types, but neither are sure things. As far as Quick, who knows. He hasn't produced much at a and we are 2 years into it with him. Pettis is a number 4 at best.

Bottom line is we have the opportunity to get a potentially dominate number 1, that opportunity doesn't come around often so you better jump all over it when you can. We haven't had a true number 1 since Holt, how long ago was that?


I still dont understand the Pettis hate. He may not be a #1, but a #4???? What the heck?

I don't hate him at all. He is a good role player and a good teammate.
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The J.R.S.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The draft is mostly solid Jrry, but I'm not a fan of trading down with our highest pick in the scenario you described.

If we do trade down, it better net us a haul, not just another Pead,Quick, or Jenkins.

I think Evans would be a good fit, obviously, as I have been one of the constant voices crying for size on the outside. That being said, I would not want to take him at #7, and I would not want to move from 3 to 7 for only an additional 2nd.

Saffold could definitely be re-signed here. He's lost his job at both tackle positions, so if someone else offers him a large contract, it would be at guard, where he has very little experience and has only played average. Not to mention he has durability concerns.

I'm not sure who came up with the idea of him getting paid, but it looks less likely every week.
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