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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Tragic Football Death from HS Football Game Reply with quote

http://www.cbssports.com/general/eye-on-sports/24223849/arizona-hs-football-player-dies-from-traumatic-brain-injury

Quote:
Charles Youvella, a running back from Hopi High School (Keams Canyon, AZ), sustained the head injury in the fourth quarter when, after catching a pass, was tackled to the ground.


Quote:
Youvella got up and played two more plays before he collapsed on the field. He was conscious and talking as he was being rushed to St. Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix, but he eventually deteriorated into critical condition.




So this it a thread to get away from the Chicago Bears game talk and talk player safety.

This is a tragic event for sure and only magnifies what they NFL is trying to do with player safety.

As a coach I dealt with an issue myself in a playoff game where the OC tried to re-insert the star RB back in game because we were losing. Kid was in tears on sideline with a headache. I literally had to take his face mask off helmet and hide the pieces. No joke this is how bad the OC wanted to win.


So the question I pose to you all is how do you fix head injuries from happening at all levels? Some of these schools can not afford some of the best equipment and the better helmets cost a good penny.

Coaching can only go so far when parents are telling kids different because in "Their day" and then they see huge hits all over ESPN and such.


1. For the NFL I would remove the face masks. Simple. Players use them as weapons. Removing them would make players think twice about spearing people etc.

2. For the NCAA I would fine schools scholarships when found guilty of letting players play with concussion symptoms.

3. In youth football some kind of coach certification should be mandatory. These organizations with coaches having no training is a bad idea.


THoughts?
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tippitover


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan good post. This is terrible. There have been a few things on the HS level that have happened this year.

Link: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1776791-high-school-football-player-dies-after-helmet-to-helmet-collision

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/high-school-football-player-dies-helmet-injury-brocton_n_3941680.html

I believe that we are taught from a young age to tough it out. Play through injury or loose your place. Don't be a [inappropriate/removed]. We start to buy into it and believe that it is ok to play through these things.

I like your idea of having HS and peewee coaches having to have certifications to coach and must abide by rules.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tippitover wrote:
detfan good post. This is terrible. There have been a few things on the HS level that have happened this year.

Link: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1776791-high-school-football-player-dies-after-helmet-to-helmet-collision

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/high-school-football-player-dies-helmet-injury-brocton_n_3941680.html

I believe that we are taught from a young age to tough it out. Play through injury or loose your place. Don't be a [inappropriate/removed]. We start to buy into it and believe that it is ok to play through these things.

I like your idea of having HS and peewee coaches having to have certifications to coach and must abide by rules.


Yea I went through a certification process with ASEP to help the organization I was with. Problem is many youth organizations simply do not have the money. By time they get insurance and gear they can not afford to send coaches to training.

I actually learned more from a clinic at USC but those were out of pocket.

This is why I feel the NFL is a bit hypocritical. They let ESPN have segments like "Jacked Up" or they have videos with big hits on their NFL.com page. They use it to draw fans and money but then preach player safety.

I think there needs to be a group not affiliated with NFL or owners come in and be on sidelines. I know they have people on sidelines but I do not think they are helping.


PBS did segment on it

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sports/concussion-watch/frontline-espns-outside-the-lines-team-up-to-examine-nfl-concussions/

Quote:
The collaboration kicks off Friday, November 16 with a segment on ESPN’s Outside the Lines (3 p.m. ET, check local listings) focusing on late Hall of Famer, Mike Webster. The former Pittsburgh Steelers center was the first NFL player officially diagnosed with chronic traumatic encephalopathy – or “football brain disease.”

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DTOW


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, let me start by saying that the kids death is a tragedy and my condolences go out to his family.

My thoughts:
I do not agree with removing the facemasks. I understand the thought behind it but I do not think that it would help. Mostly because people are generally hurt when they are hit with the crown of an opposing players helmet. Generally speaking, facemask to facemask contact is much safer than crown to facemask or crown to crown.

As far as docking scholarships to college teams, I think that is reasonable but only if there is a history of it happening. I don't think that you could start docking them scholarships based on one or two incidents for the simple fact that concussion symptoms don't always appear instantaneously.

As far as the coaching certification, I believe that it is already in place, at least at the high school level. I referee high school football and we as well as the coaches are required to take a yearly concussion course to help you to identify what you are looking for with a concussion/head trauma. If we see any issues, or what we think has the potential to be an issue, we are required to make the player leave the field.

As tragic as these deaths are I think that it is important to provide some context. I won't post the link because I'm not sure it is allowed but as I type this I'm looking at a study on deaths in football games. From 1990-2010 there were 243 deaths. Of those 243 deaths, the majority were due to underlying heart conditions of players. 63 were attributed to brain injuries and 38 to heat exhaustion. It's almost impossible to find the exact amount but what I found is that approximately 3.5 million people play organized football in any given year. If you extrapolate that over the 20 year period of that study it comes to 70,000,000 people. So your chances of dying from a brain injury over that time period were approximately .0000009% or about 1 in 1,111,111. To provide some context to that number, you have a 1 in 700,000 chance at getting struck by lightning in any given year. That means you are over 30% more likely to be struck by lightning than die in a football game.

My conclusion: I don't think there is much you can do about it. I don't know how you legislate you way out of something that is literally a 1 in a million chance. There is an inherent risk in playing this game, you chances of dying are astronomically low but it cannot be totally eliminated.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DTOW wrote:
Well, let me start by saying that the kids death is a tragedy and my condolences go out to his family.

My thoughts:
Quote:
I do not agree with removing the facemasks. I understand the thought behind it but I do not think that it would help. Mostly because people are generally hurt when they are hit with the crown of an opposing players helmet. Generally speaking, facemask to facemask contact is much safer than crown to facemask or crown to crown.


I see your point on this.

Quote:
As far as docking scholarships to college teams, I think that is reasonable but only if there is a history of it happening. I don't think that you could start docking them scholarships based on one or two incidents for the simple fact that concussion symptoms don't always appear instantaneously.


Yes it would need to be a trend

Quote:
As far as the coaching certification, I believe that it is already in place, at least at the high school level. I referee high school football and we as well as the coaches are required to take a yearly concussion course to help you to identify what you are looking for with a concussion/head trauma. If we see any issues, or what we think has the potential to be an issue, we are required to make the player leave the field.


Yea I did not mention high school as they already putting good things in place. California has amended their rules books with concussion protocol as have other states. I am talking youth sports. They are not governed as much.

Quote:
As tragic as these deaths are I think that it is important to provide some context. I won't post the link because I'm not sure it is allowed but as a type this I'm looking at a study on deaths in football games. From 1990-2010 there were 243 deaths. Of those 243 deaths, the majority were due to underlying heart conditions of players. 63 were attributed to brain injuries and 38 to heat exhaustion. It's almost impossible to find the exact amount but what I found is that approximately 3.5 million people play organized football in any given year. If you extrapolate that over the 20 year period of that study it comes to 70,000,000 people. So your chances of dying from a brain injury over that time period were approximately .0000009% or about 1 in 1,111,111. To provide some context to that number, you have a 1 in 700,000 chance at getting struck by lightning in any given year. That means you are over 30% more likely to be struck by lightning than die in a football game.


Great statistics!

Quote:
My conclusion: I don't think there is much you can do about it. I don't know how you legislate you way out of something that is literally a 1 in a million chance. There is an inherent risk in playing this game, you chances of dying are astronomically low but it cannot be totally eliminated
.




I understand deaths can not be eliminated I still think there is a ton of room to improve safety given technology.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's tragic that so many kids die from playing football. Honestly, if schools don't have the most up to date helmets, then they shouldn't have a team. Or at least they should the most up to date helmets right now. My school has three different types of helmets for the varsity and JV. Varsity gets the first choice, and the best helmets are always taken up by the varsity team. We have one of the most up to date helmets and since switching to these helmets I can only think of one player having a concussion off of the top of my head. Obviously there was probably some that went unnoticed, but the coach that was here with the older helmets was the type of coach to play someone with a concussion, but the coach that was here with the newer helmets would always sit you if you were even dizzy or had a headache.

We've had these helmets for two years. Before we got these helmets there would 5-15 different players getting a concussion throughout the season, and many of them would get more than one. That is an insane difference. The newer helmets also fit the players head better. The older one's didn't conform to your head, and gave you a headache if it didn't fit your head or if your head didn't fit it.

The sad thing is that I see plenty of NFL players using the outdated helmets.
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X_Factor_40


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all this is a terribly sad story. I feel terrible for the family and the school of the boy who died too young. RIP.

However, I think removing the face-mask is a not such a good idea. How exactly do they use them as a weapon? Just by willing to throw their body around more because their face is protected? I could see that reasoning, but if you removed the face-mask I'd be willing to bet that you'd start seeing a lot of fights when things get rough because players realize that they can actually connect with a face and not just a helmet. I also think in the long run you'd see more injuries to the head by doing so (not necessarily concussions) and it would take player safety back a step further in today's game where players are bigger, stronger, faster.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

X_Factor_40 wrote:
First of all this is a terribly sad story. I feel terrible for the family and the school of the boy who died too young. RIP.

However, I think removing the face-mask is a not such a good idea. How exactly do they use them as a weapon? Just by willing to throw their body around more because their face is protected? I could see that reasoning, but if you removed the face-mask I'd be willing to bet that you'd start seeing a lot of fights when things get rough because players realize that they can actually connect with a face and not just a helmet. I also think in the long run you'd see more injuries to the head by doing so (not necessarily concussions) and it would take player safety back a step further in today's game where players are bigger, stronger, faster.


I just think players would avoid using crown of helmet etc without a face mask. Helmets are basically a weapon out there. The force behind them and the willingness of people to use them to tackle. Proper tackling would avoid most of this but the pros do whatever they can to get guys down.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
It's tragic that so many kids die from playing football. Honestly, if schools don't have the most up to date helmets, then they shouldn't have a team. Or at least they should the most up to date helmets right now. My school has three different types of helmets for the varsity and JV. Varsity gets the first choice, and the best helmets are always taken up by the varsity team. We have one of the most up to date helmets and since switching to these helmets I can only think of one player having a concussion off of the top of my head. Obviously there was probably some that went unnoticed, but the coach that was here with the older helmets was the type of coach to play someone with a concussion, but the coach that was here with the newer helmets would always sit you if you were even dizzy or had a headache.

We've had these helmets for two years. Before we got these helmets there would 5-15 different players getting a concussion throughout the season, and many of them would get more than one. That is an insane difference. The newer helmets also fit the players head better. The older one's didn't conform to your head, and gave you a headache if it didn't fit your head or if your head didn't fit it.

The sad thing is that I see plenty of NFL players using the outdated helmets.


This is something I noticed too. Like when certain players get a concussion they switch to a better helmet to prevent further injuries. Do not understand why they are not wearing them day 1
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
X_Factor_40 wrote:
First of all this is a terribly sad story. I feel terrible for the family and the school of the boy who died too young. RIP.

However, I think removing the face-mask is a not such a good idea. How exactly do they use them as a weapon? Just by willing to throw their body around more because their face is protected? I could see that reasoning, but if you removed the face-mask I'd be willing to bet that you'd start seeing a lot of fights when things get rough because players realize that they can actually connect with a face and not just a helmet. I also think in the long run you'd see more injuries to the head by doing so (not necessarily concussions) and it would take player safety back a step further in today's game where players are bigger, stronger, faster.


I just think players would avoid using crown of helmet etc without a face mask. Helmets are basically a weapon out there. The force behind them and the willingness of people to use them to tackle. Proper tackling would avoid most of this but the pros do whatever they can to get guys down.
It would likely cause better tackling, but players such as QB's could become more vulnerable, so I doubt this ever happens. And if a big RB decides to lower his shoulder into your face...see ya in the hospital.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
X_Factor_40 wrote:
First of all this is a terribly sad story. I feel terrible for the family and the school of the boy who died too young. RIP.

However, I think removing the face-mask is a not such a good idea. How exactly do they use them as a weapon? Just by willing to throw their body around more because their face is protected? I could see that reasoning, but if you removed the face-mask I'd be willing to bet that you'd start seeing a lot of fights when things get rough because players realize that they can actually connect with a face and not just a helmet. I also think in the long run you'd see more injuries to the head by doing so (not necessarily concussions) and it would take player safety back a step further in today's game where players are bigger, stronger, faster.


I just think players would avoid using crown of helmet etc without a face mask. Helmets are basically a weapon out there. The force behind them and the willingness of people to use them to tackle. Proper tackling would avoid most of this but the pros do whatever they can to get guys down.
It would likely cause better tackling, but players such as QB's could become more vulnerable, so I doubt this ever happens. And if a big RB decides to lower his shoulder into your face...see ya in the hospital.


Broken nose, jaw etc < brain damage.

Not saying it is the answer just trying to drive a more productive conversation around here. Wink
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DTOW


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think another thing that has to be taken into account with the brain injury stuff is that the NFL has made changes to their protocol and how to handle them. These new protocols are relatively new to the game and we will have another 10-15 years before we see what kind of impact they have in correcting these problems.

These injuries aren't like repairing a broken bone and being able to immediately find out the health/recovery of the injury. It will be decades before we truly have an understanding of what affects the new protocols have on halting brain damage.
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TimeForChange


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Start from the ground level, teaching kids sound tackling and continue to emphasis throughout their careers.

Removing the facemask would work IMO but I think its too drastic of a change and it won't happen.

What about severe consequences for blatant helmet to helmet dirty hits? 8 game or year suspensions?
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Laimbrane


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO, if you don't make an attempt to wrap up/use your arms, it should be a 10-yard penalty and removal of the player from the field: first offense for the rest of the drive, second offense for the rest of the quarter, third offense for the rest of the game. That's not tackling, it's colliding, and it needs to be discouraged. I think headshots would go away if players were forced to wrap; they'd have to aim for the body - which is where they should be aiming - and momentum carrying them with the player would reduce the jarringness of the impact.

And removing facemasks won't help. Back in the early 20th century, before better helmets, it was one of the most dangerous sports out here - players were dying from hits and politicians almost legislated it out of existence.
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diehardlionfan


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really great topic detfan.

As others have already stated this is a terrible tragedy.

I'm not sure about removing face masks. I haven't heard it mentioned before so I have to give it some thought.

There have been great advances in helmet technology that was blocked by the NFL until recently. With the NFL on board it should be encouraging to equipment manufacturers.

Schools don't all have the money but there's a number of ways to help.

1. Give Parents the ability to get a tax right off for youth sporting equipment. The tax loss will be more than made up by a healthier population because it will get more kids playing sports.

2. Contact the NFL and NFLPA to provide money to set up a trust to help poorer school districts purchase proper head gear.

In numerous contact sports the incidence of head injuries has skyrocketed over the past 20 years. Efforts by equipment manufacturers to increase the safety of their equipment has infact increased risk to opposing players.

Far to much of football and hockey equipment is made of high impact plastic. It may protect the wearer but does severe damage to the player being hit.

As an example. When I played hockey the only equipment made from high impact plastic was the helmet. Shoulder pads were 1/2 inch of felt covered by a stiff cardboard like product. When you body checked it could hurt but it wasn't leaving the opponent with a concusion. So review the components of any equipment that can make impact with an opponent and redesign the equipment to absorb force more effectively.

Make the spear type tackles illegal. Youngsters watch the pros and to many don't know how to tackle. They're always going for the big thundering head first tackle with no intent of wrapping up.

Teach proper tackling technique over and over and over until the kids get it.

Where at all possible the game should be played on grass. Make it a requirement that any new stadiums must use grass. The new stadium in Arizona is a great example of what can be done.

Properly enforce concussion protocols. In the youth ranks caches not adhering to the protocol receive a life time ban.
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