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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vino wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
We can agree to disagree with the on-field evaluation of Manziel and Mariota. I think we agree that both prospect have a lot of natural talent - just a difference in opinion on where they are at right now.

However, I will say this, they aren't made up character concerns. I'm not necessarily sure it's his character so I'll conservatively say that he has maturity concerns and those are certainly not made up.

From what I've seen he's just a guy who likes to have a good time and is really intense in his competitiveness. What's the worse he's done that we all haven't? No one is a saint. He's a 20 year old kid with the entire world watching his every move. I'm just turning 20 next week and I can't imagine how much [inappropriate/removed] I'd be into if the entire sport media world, twitter, and TMZ were all looking for something to expose me on for publicity.

But yes I agree Mariota has a lot of potential. Just don't think we should draft him since he'll have to sit. Liek you said I obviously think Johnny is further along.


While a lot of that is true, it doesn't change much. That's still not the kind of leadership you want to see from your QB. He has committed NCAA violations (and has made gestures in games referencing it), got in trouble at the Manning camp, and was kicked out of a party at Texas A&M. How obnoxious does a star QB have to be to be kicked out of a party at his own school?
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vino wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
That first line really isn't saying much.

I don't really see him doing any of that stuff lol. At least, not consistently. I see Mariota doing a lot of those things though. Manziel still does A LOT of Rex Grossman Unleash the Dragon stuff too. I think his first season starting will be an interception tsunami. I could definitely be wrong, but I don't see anything now that makes me think that I am. The only thing is that he has improved dramatically (again, not really the hard of a set standard) and he does have an "it factor" about him. I still wouldn't spend higher than a 3rd or 4th on him though.

Well we're just seeing different things. I never really see Mariota making his own reads or adjusting things at the LOS. And I barely see him go through progressions which is just an effect of his offense. It's bubble screen pass in the flat, hit the designated guy, if the designated guy isn't open check it down, if everyone is covered take off. 95% of the time this is all I see him do. Not to mention with the exception of Mike Evans Mariota plays with way faster and more athletic skill payers who put up a bunch of yards off those screen passes that inflate Mariota's stats. And just in general he never has to throw into tight windows because his guys are always butt wide open.

On the other hand with Johnny, I always see him looking around going through progressions trying to find the best guy to throw to, shifting his eyes to trick the safety, and throwing into tight windows. The amount of screen passes I see him take are way lower than Mariota and he also doesn't check it down every time his hot read isn't open. He'll take off if he sees an opening, but most of the time when he runs out the pocket it's because his sorry RT let someone get by. The fact he's able to avoid what would surely be sacks for 95% of players in college, extend plays, and then most of the time come up with a first down when the play breaks down, shows how poise he is as well and that will translate to the NFL. He outran and made CJ Mosley, a top NFL prospect, miss him in the open field. He's probably one of the best QB I've seen at avoiding contact in the open field.

He has the arm, he has the superior athleticism, he always has his eyes down the field looking for the open man to make a play and doesn't shrink under pressure, he's starting to go through progressions and has expanded his responsibilities of reading a defense, he has one of the best instinctive reaction times to reading the middle linebacker I've ever seen. The flaws in his game in terms of his mechanics have been greatly fixed from last season, and the only problems he has left can either be fixed immediately or don't need to be fixed at all...etc.

I literally don't see a legitimate claim for what makes people think he's a 3rd-4th round pick other than the fact he's about an inch and a half undersized and made up character issues by the media. A lot of NFL scouts now even have him going in the first round (although I hope, if we don't get Bridgewater, teams like the Vikings, Cardinals, and Browns are stupid enough to pass up on him).

Tugboat wrote:
For the most part, i'm pretty much in the same camp as the bolded. I'm not sure i have the patience to go putzing around with developing an 'average at best' starter.

Dalton is pretty much the 'poster child' for that 2nd round QB 'success story'. And yet even there, while he's having a pretty respectable level of success as an NFL QB with tremendous weapons around him...There's still that nagging uncertainty. Can the Bengals really win it all with Dalton at the helm? And Dalton is far from the only 'mid-tier' sort of QB where those questions swirl around.


Call it greedy, i don't care. This Jaguars team has never had an elite QB, and i want one. It's only fair. Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil

But what potential "elite" QBs do you see in this draft past Bridgewater? The only three I see that have the potential x-factor to develop into elite QBs are Manziel, Mariota, and Carr. Yes, Manziel and Carr are not sure things like Bridgewater, but they're the only talents that show the tools to develop into elite potential. And with Mariota you're still taking a QB that's going to need 1-2 yeasr to develop into an NFL QB...and still might not be able to.


As far as the screen pass thing goes, Johnny Football doesn't have to throw as many of those for a couple reasons. The first of which being that O-Line which has had a stockpile of talented lineman, tackles in particular...to the point that they can often hold up against stout pass rushes just on talent and ability, more so than other lines. Combine that with the fact that Manziel spends half the game running around outside the pocket, and that alone can slow down a pass rush at the college level much like a sprinkling of screen passes might. At the NFL level where all of the athletes are bigger, faster, stronger, and crucially...more disciplined, and that's not going to buy him nearly as much credit.

The problem with Manziel and his tremendous scrambling ability...is that like Tebow (not that i'm comparing them as a whole) in terms of their 'pocket presence' and ability to improvise...it is outstanding. But it's to the point where it almost becomes their 'go-to' instinct...to bolt out of the pocket and start ad-libbing. And that's great...in college. But when you hit the NFL with that sort of 'backyard football' mentality...it doesn't tend to work out nearly as well. Between the greater athletic ability in the NFL across the board, and the greater discipline as a whole...that 'make things up as we go' mentality doesn't fly...at least not consistently. And consistency is the bread and butter of a bonafide NFL calibre QB.

You give the example of Manziel evading CJ Mosley, a highly touted NFL prospect. And that's great...but the reality of the NFL is, he wouldn't be evading ONE highly talented NFL calibre player...he'd be trying to scramble around eluding an entire defensive front full of them (Jaguars excluded Sad ) But that's the real issue there.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
Vino wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
We can agree to disagree with the on-field evaluation of Manziel and Mariota. I think we agree that both prospect have a lot of natural talent - just a difference in opinion on where they are at right now.

However, I will say this, they aren't made up character concerns. I'm not necessarily sure it's his character so I'll conservatively say that he has maturity concerns and those are certainly not made up.

From what I've seen he's just a guy who likes to have a good time and is really intense in his competitiveness. What's the worse he's done that we all haven't? No one is a saint. He's a 20 year old kid with the entire world watching his every move. I'm just turning 20 next week and I can't imagine how much [inappropriate/removed] I'd be into if the entire sport media world, twitter, and TMZ were all looking for something to expose me on for publicity.

But yes I agree Mariota has a lot of potential. Just don't think we should draft him since he'll have to sit. Liek you said I obviously think Johnny is further along.


While a lot of that is true, it doesn't change much. That's still not the kind of leadership you want to see from your QB. He has committed NCAA violations (and has made gestures in games referencing it), got in trouble at the Manning camp, and was kicked out of a party at Texas A&M. How obnoxious does a star QB have to be to be kicked out of a party at his own school?


He can be BFFs with Justin Blackmon who we...


oh wait. Does that count as leadership??? Shocked
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Vino


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
While a lot of that is true, it doesn't change much. That's still not the kind of leadership you want to see from your QB. He has committed NCAA violations (and has made gestures in games referencing it), got in trouble at the Manning camp, and was kicked out of a party at Texas A&M. How obnoxious does a star QB have to be to be kicked out of a party at his own school?

A couple of your facts are wrong. They never proved he violated NCAA rules, they suspended him half a game to make a point. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. All we know is that the NCAA acted off a third party's word, made a big thing out of it to the media, and at the end of the day couldn't find any actual evidence of it happening. The one with egg on their face looks like the NCAA, not Johnny. He didn't get in trouble at the Manning camp, he was sick and they allowed him to leave early. Was it from partying too much? Maybe, but none of us would be questioned about our "character" if we were college students (which I am actually), partied on a weekend in the summer, and then felt a little sick the day afterwards. He still showed up as he was supposed to, met the obligation, but he just wasn't feeling well. He did his part. The Mannings said it was absolutely no trouble and that they'd love to have him back next year. He wasn't kicked out a party at Texas A&M, he was "kicked out" a party at University of Texas by a drunk [inappropriate/removed] and decided to just walk away. Is it smart to go to your rival school's party? Probably not. Is it wrong and a blight on his character? Not one bit.

And finally, that money gesture has nothing to do with him signing autographs or making money. He was doing it last year. It's something the entire team does and it's a shout out to OVO/Drake. And if you're talking about the signing thing he did in the first game, he was talking back (unmaliciously btw) to a Rice linebacker who was asking for his autograph on the field and he said "no autograph for you" after blowing him up. That's just good trash talk.

These are the kinds of thing the media are blowing out of proportion and making people think this kid is some kind of problem child. They do this with every story. We saw it with Dez Bryant and we've seen it with Richie Incognito and Jonathan Martin. They take a story they know bout 5% of the actual context behind, blow it up to make out these players in a negative light, and then when the actual details come out and it's not as egregious as they were making it out to be initially for controversy for their ratings and clicks, they brush it under the rug, say their little apologies that no one hears, and move on. Johnny is no worse than I or any of my friends are. He's young and living life and the biggest thing college football has ever seen. He's taking advantage of the wealth his family has and his fame just like we all would in the same situation. I have absolutely no problem with Johnny not being a perfect Christian upstanding white boy like Tim Tebow.

And in the end, NONE of those things affect his locker room. Sumlin has said this many times. There is no negative effect in the locker room from any of it...if anything the team rallies behind Johnny because the media tries to make him out to be something he's not. His teammates love him, his coaching staff love him, he's clearly the undisputed leader of that team on the field, and his team feeds off his energy and intensity. All these things are what you want in your QB. Manziel is not a liability he's an asset. He brings an attitude and intensity and swagger about him that few people have. The kid is not perfect but he does not have "character issues", certainly none that should worry GMs and scouts about his effect on the locker room. This boogie man is nonexistent.

Tugboat wrote:
As far as the screen pass thing goes, Johnny Football doesn't have to throw as many of those for a couple reasons. The first of which being that O-Line which has had a stockpile of talented lineman, tackles in particular...to the point that they can often hold up against stout pass rushes just on talent and ability, more so than other lines. Combine that with the fact that Manziel spends half the game running around outside the pocket, and that alone can slow down a pass rush at the college level much like a sprinkling of screen passes might. At the NFL level where all of the athletes are bigger, faster, stronger, and crucially...more disciplined, and that's not going to buy him nearly as much credit.

The problem with Manziel and his tremendous scrambling ability...is that like Tebow (not that i'm comparing them as a whole) in terms of their 'pocket presence' and ability to improvise...it is outstanding. But it's to the point where it almost becomes their 'go-to' instinct...to bolt out of the pocket and start ad-libbing. And that's great...in college. But when you hit the NFL with that sort of 'backyard football' mentality...it doesn't tend to work out nearly as well. Between the greater athletic ability in the NFL across the board, and the greater discipline as a whole...that 'make things up as we go' mentality doesn't fly...at least not consistently. And consistency is the bread and butter of a bonafide NFL calibre QB.

You give the example of Manziel evading CJ Mosley, a highly touted NFL prospect. And that's great...but the reality of the NFL is, he wouldn't be evading ONE highly talented NFL calibre player...he'd be trying to scramble around eluding an entire defensive front full of them (Jaguars excluded Sad ) But that's the real issue there.

They have a really good LT in Jake Matthews but their RT is nothing special. Manziel is always getting pressured on his right side and the pocket closes very quickly. People are not giving him enough credit for what he is doing as a pocket passes this season. He uses his legs, yes, but he also delivers on the money throws from the pocket regularly. Whereas Tebow couldn't survive because he's NOT a NFL passer, Manziel has a legitimate NFL caliber arm.
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Vino


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All i can say is that I'll be happy if the Vikings, Cardinals, or Browns pass over Manziel in the first round because of his height and perceived "character issues" and he falls to the second where we can pick him up should the Bucs choose Bridgewater and we choose Clowney. I would be fully on the Caldwell train if he made a move like that and took the "risk", we'd potentially have the coup of the decade in a best case scenario. Clowney on the defensive side of the ball and a highly talented QB in Manziel who got underrated and will have a chip on his shoulder.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, he sold autographs. The reason he was only suspended half a game was because the NCAA couldn't do nothing about it, so they gave him a little slap on the wrist since he is a money player.

Manziel wasn't sick at the Manning camp. That was an excuse cooked up to save public face.

I'm not going to give out specifics, but I have my own sources and I know that Manziel has been kicked out of at least one Texas A&M party within the past 15 months (rumors of a second time but I can't confirm that one).

Even if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, it's concerning that all these instances have occurred. That matters in the NFL. Big Ben was suspended 4 games for repeatedly putting himself in bad situations. He was never proven to have done anything either.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vino wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
While a lot of that is true, it doesn't change much. That's still not the kind of leadership you want to see from your QB. He has committed NCAA violations (and has made gestures in games referencing it), got in trouble at the Manning camp, and was kicked out of a party at Texas A&M. How obnoxious does a star QB have to be to be kicked out of a party at his own school?

A couple of your facts are wrong. They never proved he violated NCAA rules, they suspended him half a game to make a point. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. All we know is that the NCAA acted off a third party's word, made a big thing out of it to the media, and at the end of the day couldn't find any actual evidence of it happening. The one with egg on their face looks like the NCAA, not Johnny. He didn't get in trouble at the Manning camp, he was sick and they allowed him to leave early. Was it from partying too much? Maybe, but none of us would be questioned about our "character" if we were college students (which I am actually), partied on a weekend in the summer, and then felt a little sick the day afterwards. He still showed up as he was supposed to, met the obligation, but he just wasn't feeling well. He did his part. The Mannings said it was absolutely no trouble and that they'd love to have him back next year. He wasn't kicked out a party at Texas A&M, he was "kicked out" a party at University of Texas by a drunk [inappropriate/removed] and decided to just walk away. Is it smart to go to your rival school's party? Probably not. Is it wrong and a blight on his character? Not one bit.

And finally, that money gesture has nothing to do with him signing autographs or making money. He was doing it last year. It's something the entire team does and it's a shout out to OVO/Drake. And if you're talking about the signing thing he did in the first game, he was talking back (unmaliciously btw) to a Rice linebacker who was asking for his autograph on the field and he said "no autograph for you" after blowing him up. That's just good trash talk.

These are the kinds of thing the media are blowing out of proportion and making people think this kid is some kind of problem child. They do this with every story. We saw it with Dez Bryant and we've seen it with Richie Incognito and Jonathan Martin. They take a story they know bout 5% of the actual context behind, blow it up to make out these players in a negative light, and then when the actual details come out and it's not as egregious as they were making it out to be initially for controversy for their ratings and clicks, they brush it under the rug, say their little apologies that no one hears, and move on. Johnny is no worse than I or any of my friends are. He's young and living life and the biggest thing college football has ever seen. He's taking advantage of the wealth his family has and his fame just like we all would in the same situation. I have absolutely no problem with Johnny not being a perfect Christian upstanding white boy like Tim Tebow.

And in the end, NONE of those things affect his locker room. Sumlin has said this many times. There is no negative effect in the locker room from any of it...if anything the team rallies behind Johnny because the media tries to make him out to be something he's not. His teammates love him, his coaching staff love him, he's clearly the undisputed leader of that team on the field, and his team feeds off his energy and intensity. All these things are what you want in your QB. Manziel is not a liability he's an asset. He brings an attitude and intensity and swagger about him that few people have. The kid is not perfect but he does not have "character issues", certainly none that should worry GMs and scouts about his effect on the locker room. This boogie man is nonexistent.

Tugboat wrote:
As far as the screen pass thing goes, Johnny Football doesn't have to throw as many of those for a couple reasons. The first of which being that O-Line which has had a stockpile of talented lineman, tackles in particular...to the point that they can often hold up against stout pass rushes just on talent and ability, more so than other lines. Combine that with the fact that Manziel spends half the game running around outside the pocket, and that alone can slow down a pass rush at the college level much like a sprinkling of screen passes might. At the NFL level where all of the athletes are bigger, faster, stronger, and crucially...more disciplined, and that's not going to buy him nearly as much credit.

The problem with Manziel and his tremendous scrambling ability...is that like Tebow (not that i'm comparing them as a whole) in terms of their 'pocket presence' and ability to improvise...it is outstanding. But it's to the point where it almost becomes their 'go-to' instinct...to bolt out of the pocket and start ad-libbing. And that's great...in college. But when you hit the NFL with that sort of 'backyard football' mentality...it doesn't tend to work out nearly as well. Between the greater athletic ability in the NFL across the board, and the greater discipline as a whole...that 'make things up as we go' mentality doesn't fly...at least not consistently. And consistency is the bread and butter of a bonafide NFL calibre QB.

You give the example of Manziel evading CJ Mosley, a highly touted NFL prospect. And that's great...but the reality of the NFL is, he wouldn't be evading ONE highly talented NFL calibre player...he'd be trying to scramble around eluding an entire defensive front full of them (Jaguars excluded Sad ) But that's the real issue there.

They have a really good LT in Jake Matthews but their RT is nothing special. Manziel is always getting pressured on his right side and the pocket closes very quickly. People are not giving him enough credit for what he is doing as a pocket passes this season. He uses his legs, yes, but he also delivers on the money throws from the pocket regularly. Whereas Tebow couldn't survive because he's NOT a NFL passer, Manziel has a legitimate NFL caliber arm.


It's not about being a choir boy like Tebow, it's about exactly the bolded.

Johnny doesn't seem to realized that the expectations are different for an NFL-bound player in college, as opposed to the average student. I've done things i'd blast a legitimate NFL prospect for in college. But that's kinda the point...

Is he there to have fun and party it up, for the good times? Or is he there to work his way towards a career playing a GAME professionally, for a living...for millions a year? From everything i've seen...it's much closer to the former, and that's the concern. Not very many people have the physical ability and financial opportunity to even work towards that. That's where the 'character concerns' come in.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Their RT may end up being a first round selection in the upcoming draft...
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
No, he sold autographs. The reason he was only suspended half a game was because the NCAA couldn't do nothing about it, so they gave him a little slap on the wrist since he is a money player.

Manziel wasn't sick at the Manning camp. That was an excuse cooked up to save public face.

I'm not going to give out specifics, but I have my own sources and I know that Manziel has been kicked out of at least one Texas A&M party within the past 15 months (rumors of a second time but I can't confirm that one).

Even if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, it's concerning that all these instances have occurred. That matters in the NFL. Big Ben was suspended 4 games for repeatedly putting himself in bad situations. He was never proven to have done anything either.

Regardless of your sources, what is OFFICIAL is that they could not prove he sold autographs, he didn't get kicked out the Manning academy and they said they would want him back, and there are no reports of him getting kicked out a TAMU party (which doesn't even make sense). I don't like taking "sources" as absolute proof of something especially when everythng we actually know points to the opposite of it
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vino wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
No, he sold autographs. The reason he was only suspended half a game was because the NCAA couldn't do nothing about it, so they gave him a little slap on the wrist since he is a money player.

Manziel wasn't sick at the Manning camp. That was an excuse cooked up to save public face.

I'm not going to give out specifics, but I have my own sources and I know that Manziel has been kicked out of at least one Texas A&M party within the past 15 months (rumors of a second time but I can't confirm that one).

Even if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, it's concerning that all these instances have occurred. That matters in the NFL. Big Ben was suspended 4 games for repeatedly putting himself in bad situations. He was never proven to have done anything either.

Regardless of your sources, what is OFFICIAL is that they could not prove he sold autographs, he didn't get kicked out the Manning academy and they said they would want him back, and there are no reports of him getting kicked out a TAMU party (which doesn't even make sense). I don't like taking "sources" as absolute proof of something especially when everythng we actually know points to the opposite of it


"OFFICIAL" lol

He sold tickets. They had proof, but they saw that suspending him was bad for the NCAA. Same thing happened with Cam Newton.

The sources I have about the TAMU incident are pretty reliable.

Regardless, Roger Goodell isn't going to care if Johnny Manziel enters the NFL and doesn't "officially" get in trouble for anything. If he gets himself into bad situations repeatedly then he'll still get in trouble by the NFL just like Big Ben did.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point is that none of those incidents hold enough weight to impact his draft stock, not whether or not he'll be penalized in the NFL when he gets there for things he may theoretically do.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you think there aren't teams that have black dotted him then you're being naive.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
Vino wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
No, he sold autographs. The reason he was only suspended half a game was because the NCAA couldn't do nothing about it, so they gave him a little slap on the wrist since he is a money player.

Manziel wasn't sick at the Manning camp. That was an excuse cooked up to save public face.

I'm not going to give out specifics, but I have my own sources and I know that Manziel has been kicked out of at least one Texas A&M party within the past 15 months (rumors of a second time but I can't confirm that one).

Even if you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, it's concerning that all these instances have occurred. That matters in the NFL. Big Ben was suspended 4 games for repeatedly putting himself in bad situations. He was never proven to have done anything either.

Regardless of your sources, what is OFFICIAL is that they could not prove he sold autographs, he didn't get kicked out the Manning academy and they said they would want him back, and there are no reports of him getting kicked out a TAMU party (which doesn't even make sense). I don't like taking "sources" as absolute proof of something especially when everythng we actually know points to the opposite of it


"OFFICIAL" lol

He sold tickets. They had proof, but they saw that suspending him was bad for the NCAA. Same thing happened with Cam Newton.

The sources I have about the TAMU incident are pretty reliable.

Regardless, Roger Goodell isn't going to care if Johnny Manziel enters the NFL and doesn't "officially" get in trouble for anything. If he gets himself into bad situations repeatedly then he'll still get in trouble by the NFL just like Big Ben did.


I have reliable sources in Miami that tell me Bridgewater was part of a gang in high school and he still hangs out with them whenever he goes back home.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luke1592 wrote:
I have reliable sources in Miami that tell me Bridgewater was part of a gang in high school and he still hangs out with them whenever he goes back home.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AF, would your source be Ben? Not sure if he released anything about it, but just taking a guess.
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