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Johnny Manziel vs. Derek Carr
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Vino


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Johnny Manziel vs. Derek Carr Reply with quote

If the Bucs get the first pick and choose Bridgewater and we take Clowney with the second pick, who would you rather have in the second round (assuming they both fall to the second round)?
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Jaguarfan


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carr. I love Johnny, love to watch him play, but don't want him on my team.
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.Buzz


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jaguarfan wrote:
Carr. I love Johnny, love to watch him play, but don't want him on my team.


This, although I'm not at that stage of not wanting him here yet. We'll see, I definitely see Carr as a better prospect though and I'm not sure he falls to the 2nd at this point.
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Vino


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember, we've had success with "small" QBs before. :p

I think either Carr or Johnny would be a steal in the second round personally.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ugh. Do not want Carr. He's got the makings of turning into his brother with how skiddish he is in the pocket at times.
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Vino


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about Johnny?
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Its A Sabotage


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Ugh. Do not want Carr. He's got the makings of turning into his brother with how skiddish he is in the pocket at times.


He's fixed that this year.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vino wrote:
What about Johnny?
Needs a lot of work fixing his footwork and could probably stand to tighten up his mechanics. He has a ton of habits that will turn into a ton of mistakes at the NFL level, and some of that is instinctual and won't be coached out of him. I'm going to watch more of him, but right now I like him more than Carr, but not enough that he's higher than a plan D type option at QB.

I'm not a fan of second round talent at the QB position in general. Quarterback is the most important position on the field and it's so rare that you find someone that isn't seriously flawed past the first round. Guys like Russell Wilson and Drew Brees were first round players who dropped because of a misread on how their measurable a (height) effect them. I don't see anyone here being graded lower because of height or size (one of the reasons Bradt dropped) or even because they are "needs a year or two to develop" type guys like Kaep, most guys are getting the lower grades because of somewhat fatal flaws in their game that will give them a hell of a time transitioning to the NFL. And unless you find one of those "misjudged" guys, you're capping out at Andy Dalton type QB play. And I've gone through too much with this team for 5-7 years of QB purgatory.

I'm firmly in the "find an elite QB and go get him" camp at 2.
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Vino


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But there are no prohibitive elite QB prospects in this draft past Bridgwater. And I think Manziel is a first round talent, and the only reason he'd fall to the second is his height. Some of his mechanics are funky, but he's fixed a lot of them this year and the holdovers are the type of things that can either immediately be fixed if he puts the work in (and he will) or don't need to be fixed at all. The only really concerning thing to me is he has a Favre streak, but I'd take the interceptions with the good because the good far outweighs it.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its A Sabotage wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Ugh. Do not want Carr. He's got the makings of turning into his brother with how skiddish he is in the pocket at times.


He's fixed that this year.
I'll take more of a look at him, and I'd like to really discuss it with you on Twitter when I do (along with other QBs), but I feel like it's still a serious issue that can rear its head when he plays teams with a great NFL pass rush.

Vino wrote:
But there are no prohibitive elite QB prospects in this draft past Bridgwater. And I think Manziel is a first round talent, and the only reason he'd fall to the second is his height. Some of his mechanics are funky, but he's fixed a lot of them this year and the holdovers are the type of things that can either immediately be fixed if he puts the work in (and he will) or don't need to be fixed at all. The only really concerning thing to me is he has a Favre streak, but I'd take the interceptions with the good because the good far outweighs it.
Even at 6'3, I don't see him as a first round prospect. While very much overblown, he's got some character/leadership concerns on top of the mechanical and tendencies issues.
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DjBuddaH


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Even at 6'3, I don't see him as a first round prospect. While very much overblown, he's got some character/leadership concerns on top of the mechanical and tendencies issues.


ala Vince Young?
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no
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Vino


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Even at 6'3, I don't see him as a first round prospect. While very much overblown, he's got some character/leadership concerns on top of the mechanical and tendencies issues.

Which character issue is so bad it would drop him out of the first round exactly? His teammates and coaching staff all clearly love him and he's the undisputed leader on that field. The worst you could say about him is that he's a party animal and likes to have a good time in the offseason, and that clearly doesn't effect his on-field play. These character issues people bring up simply don't exist in the locker room.

DjBuddaH wrote:
ala Vince Young?

lol no not even close.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DjBuddaH wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Even at 6'3, I don't see him as a first round prospect. While very much overblown, he's got some character/leadership concerns on top of the mechanical and tendencies issues.


ala Vince Young?
A bit, yes. I don't think they match up as a talent comparison, but the issues I have with him are some of the same ones that doomed Young. Right now, I like him more than I liked Young but I hated Young as a prospect. I think Young's deficiencies showed to be much worse than where I think Manziel's are at, and I think Manziel can be a starter in the right circumstance. I just see him in that "good enough to keep you from being able to pick high enough to replace him, not good enough to go deep in the playoffs" type range if he peaks, and I'm not sure he reaches that level and could see him more in that 20-25 range.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vino wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Even at 6'3, I don't see him as a first round prospect. While very much overblown, he's got some character/leadership concerns on top of the mechanical and tendencies issues.

Which character issue is so bad it would drop him out of the first round exactly? His teammates and coaching staff all clearly love him and he's the undisputed leader on that field. The worst you could say about him is that he's a party animal and likes to have a good time in the offseason, and that clearly doesn't effect his on-field play. These character issues people bring up simply don't exist in the locker room.
Like I said they're overblown, but they're there. By themselves, they're not enough to drop him, but coupled with the other things, I don't see him as a first round talent. The mechanics and tendancies are the driving force behind the grade.
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