Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Tucker or Trestman?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Chicago Bears
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ForteOz


Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Posts: 511
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: Tucker or Trestman? Reply with quote

So here is my biggest problem with the game today.
Where was the Bears response?

Do you know why dirty, cheap shot artists are abhorred (by decent people, anyway) in sports like Hockey and Football? Because literally anyone can do it, it takes no talent, and the only thing preventing a player from playing like that is human decency/sportsmanship, coaching/team culture, and penalties enforced for such play. The reason teams do it is obvious, and undeniable: the rewards (injuring your opponent's skill players enough to reduce their effectiveness or remove them from the game entirely) outweigh the risks (in game penalties, out of game fines/suspensions).
NFL football is a game played for entertainment, with millions of dollars at stake where winning necessarily comes at someone else's expense. Sportsmanship/decency are the first to go in a 'win or get fired' system, with that kind of money on the line.
Next up is coaching/team culture. Winning coaches can afford to take the high road, over time, because they may be skillful enough to manage their talent in such a way that they don't need to resort to it. But losing coaches, or losing franchises, will turn to those tactics if it means a shot at glory. Just ask the Saints if they regret 2009.
Finally, there are the refs, who have a business to protect. Certain players (the 4 guys you would think of) will get special protection because the entire business suffers when they don't play. For the rest of the league, they try to set a somewhat consistent bar for acceptable play, and enforce it as objectively as they can.
Much like a baseball umpire has his own strike zone, and calls them the same way for each team, NFL refs have to do the same thing with penalties. Whether it is holding, PI, or personal fouls.
So I'm not upset with the refs for the non calls on the Lions today (until, hilariously, Cutler had already been knocked out of the game). And besides, that would be pointless, because what the refs do or don't call is outside of the team's control. I blame the Bears.

Why?
When the refs make it CLEAR that they are not going to call ANYTHING in terms of late hits to the QB or unnecessary roughness, it is up to the Bears to RESPOND. It's called the Golden Rule 2.0: do unto others as they have done unto you.
Am I saying I want the Bears to turn into the Lions-West? No, not at all--for 14 games out of the year. But when you know *exactly* what kind of game your opponent is bringing, and you can see that the refs aren't going to deter them, your options are A) Beat them at their own game or B) sit there and take it, but don't complain if it helped them win.

Now I don't know who's job it is to instill some heart and pride into this team, to ask them if they are just going to sit there and watch the other team pound our QB after he's gotten rid of the ball time after time after time, but it's clearly not happening. Either that is on Tucker or Trestman, or both, but something has to change.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VeniceBearsFan


Joined: 15 Feb 2010
Posts: 2332
Location: Venice, Florida
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

are you saying the bears players should have stooped to their level and retaliated?
_________________
ADOPT A BEAR= SHEA McCLELLIN

Sacks: 4
Tackles: 30.0
INTS: 0
FF: 0
FR: 1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ForteOz


Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Posts: 511
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VeniceBearsFan wrote:
are you saying the bears players should have stooped to their level and retaliated?


I'm saying they had two options.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TexasBearsFan


Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 1203
Location: Waco, TX
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForteOz wrote:
VeniceBearsFan wrote:
are you saying the bears players should have stooped to their level and retaliated?


I'm saying they had two options.



So yes, you're saying that you want the Bears to start taking cheap shots. I don't think that the Bears need to stoop that level.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ForteOz


Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Posts: 511
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TexasBearsFan wrote:
ForteOz wrote:
VeniceBearsFan wrote:
are you saying the bears players should have stooped to their level and retaliated?


I'm saying they had two options.



So yes, you're saying that you want the Bears to start taking cheap shots. I don't think that the Bears need to stoop that level.


I'm saying I don't want the team to sit there getting pushed around, looking for the refs to throw flags, when it is clear they aren't going to.
But sure, boil down my entire argument to 4 words, simplifying it to the point of ridiculousness, and refute it with what amounts to 'No'.

In real life, taking the high road is the right response 90-99% of the time. I know that. Football is far from real life. You ever watch playoff hockey? How does it compare to regular season hockey?

What I am saying is you play the game the way the refs allow it to be played, or you put yourself at a disadvantage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
andjordand


Joined: 03 Jun 2011
Posts: 549
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Tucker or Trestman? Reply with quote

ForteOz wrote:
So here is my biggest problem with the game today.
Where was the Bears response?

Do you know why dirty, cheap shot artists are abhorred (by decent people, anyway) in sports like Hockey and Football? Because literally anyone can do it, it takes no talent, and the only thing preventing a player from playing like that is human decency/sportsmanship, coaching/team culture, and penalties enforced for such play. The reason teams do it is obvious, and undeniable: the rewards (injuring your opponent's skill players enough to reduce their effectiveness or remove them from the game entirely) outweigh the risks (in game penalties, out of game fines/suspensions).
NFL football is a game played for entertainment, with millions of dollars at stake where winning necessarily comes at someone else's expense. Sportsmanship/decency are the first to go in a 'win or get fired' system, with that kind of money on the line.
Next up is coaching/team culture. Winning coaches can afford to take the high road, over time, because they may be skillful enough to manage their talent in such a way that they don't need to resort to it. But losing coaches, or losing franchises, will turn to those tactics if it means a shot at glory. Just ask the Saints if they regret 2009.
Finally, there are the refs, who have a business to protect. Certain players (the 4 guys you would think of) will get special protection because the entire business suffers when they don't play. For the rest of the league, they try to set a somewhat consistent bar for acceptable play, and enforce it as objectively as they can.
Much like a baseball umpire has his own strike zone, and calls them the same way for each team, NFL refs have to do the same thing with penalties. Whether it is holding, PI, or personal fouls.
So I'm not upset with the refs for the non calls on the Lions today (until, hilariously, Cutler had already been knocked out of the game). And besides, that would be pointless, because what the refs do or don't call is outside of the team's control. I blame the Bears.

Why?
When the refs make it CLEAR that they are not going to call ANYTHING in terms of late hits to the QB or unnecessary roughness, it is up to the Bears to RESPOND. It's called the Golden Rule 2.0: do unto others as they have done unto you.
Am I saying I want the Bears to turn into the Lions-West? No, not at all--for 14 games out of the year. But when you know *exactly* what kind of game your opponent is bringing, and you can see that the refs aren't going to deter them, your options are A) Beat them at their own game or B) sit there and take it, but don't complain if it helped them win.

Now I don't know who's job it is to instill some heart and pride into this team, to ask them if they are just going to sit there and watch the other team pound our QB after he's gotten rid of the ball time after time after time, but it's clearly not happening. Either that is on Tucker or Trestman, or both, but something has to change.


The Lions have exactly 3 questionable players on the whole roster, I don't get how the label of 'dirty' gets thrown around so much for the entire team. Raiola, their center is probably the least liked Detroit sports figure I can ever remember. Of the three, he's the only one I have no respect for and him playing better this year somewhat disappointing, because I really would like him gone. Fairley and Suh at least give glimmers of being decent people. On the last play of the game, Suh reached down to help Forte up and gave him a pat on the back. I think that both of these DT's tend to get into 'bull seeing red' mode on the field and don't stop until the play is completely over. Fairley routinely bear-hugs QB's for hits/sacks instead of slamming them to the turf. On the Cutler play, there was no way he could have know if the ball was out, and the hit was more of a drag-down than a body-slam that some Bears fans have made it sound like. Late hits, while worthy of a penalty, aren't always the mark of a dirty play or cheap shot and will always be a part of the game.

Dan Hampton and Richard Dent played just as intimidating and 'dirty' as Suh and Fairley, this is still a contact sport.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ForteOz


Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Posts: 511
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Tucker or Trestman? Reply with quote

andjordand wrote:
ForteOz wrote:
So here is my biggest problem with the game today.
Where was the Bears response?

Do you know why dirty, cheap shot artists are abhorred (by decent people, anyway) in sports like Hockey and Football? Because literally anyone can do it, it takes no talent, and the only thing preventing a player from playing like that is human decency/sportsmanship, coaching/team culture, and penalties enforced for such play. The reason teams do it is obvious, and undeniable: the rewards (injuring your opponent's skill players enough to reduce their effectiveness or remove them from the game entirely) outweigh the risks (in game penalties, out of game fines/suspensions).
NFL football is a game played for entertainment, with millions of dollars at stake where winning necessarily comes at someone else's expense. Sportsmanship/decency are the first to go in a 'win or get fired' system, with that kind of money on the line.
Next up is coaching/team culture. Winning coaches can afford to take the high road, over time, because they may be skillful enough to manage their talent in such a way that they don't need to resort to it. But losing coaches, or losing franchises, will turn to those tactics if it means a shot at glory. Just ask the Saints if they regret 2009.
Finally, there are the refs, who have a business to protect. Certain players (the 4 guys you would think of) will get special protection because the entire business suffers when they don't play. For the rest of the league, they try to set a somewhat consistent bar for acceptable play, and enforce it as objectively as they can.
Much like a baseball umpire has his own strike zone, and calls them the same way for each team, NFL refs have to do the same thing with penalties. Whether it is holding, PI, or personal fouls.
So I'm not upset with the refs for the non calls on the Lions today (until, hilariously, Cutler had already been knocked out of the game). And besides, that would be pointless, because what the refs do or don't call is outside of the team's control. I blame the Bears.

Why?
When the refs make it CLEAR that they are not going to call ANYTHING in terms of late hits to the QB or unnecessary roughness, it is up to the Bears to RESPOND. It's called the Golden Rule 2.0: do unto others as they have done unto you.
Am I saying I want the Bears to turn into the Lions-West? No, not at all--for 14 games out of the year. But when you know *exactly* what kind of game your opponent is bringing, and you can see that the refs aren't going to deter them, your options are A) Beat them at their own game or B) sit there and take it, but don't complain if it helped them win.

Now I don't know who's job it is to instill some heart and pride into this team, to ask them if they are just going to sit there and watch the other team pound our QB after he's gotten rid of the ball time after time after time, but it's clearly not happening. Either that is on Tucker or Trestman, or both, but something has to change.


The Lions have exactly 3 questionable players on the whole roster, I don't get how the label of 'dirty' gets thrown around so much for the entire team. Raiola, their center is probably the least liked Detroit sports figure I can ever remember. Of the three, he's the only one I have no respect for and him playing better this year somewhat disappointing, because I really would like him gone. Fairley and Suh at least give glimmers of being decent people. On the last play of the game, Suh reached down to help Forte up and gave him a pat on the back. I think that both of these DT's tend to get into 'bull seeing red' mode on the field and don't stop until the play is completely over. Fairley routinely bear-hugs QB's for hits/sacks instead of slamming them to the turf. On the Cutler play, there was no way he could have know if the ball was out, and the hit was more of a drag-down than a body-slam that some Bears fans have made it sound like. Late hits, while worthy of a penalty, aren't always the mark of a dirty play or cheap shot and will always be a part of the game.

Dan Hampton and Richard Dent played just as intimidating and 'dirty' as Suh and Fairley, this is still a contact sport.


This isn't a discussion about whether or how the Lions are a dirty team, please don't derail my topic. The only reason I used the word 'dirty' was to point out that anyone can do it, and getting away with it presents a competitive advantage.

As to your point about it being a part of the game, thank you, I agree. So why shouldn't the Bears include it in their game, especially when playing teams like the Lions?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
TexasBearsFan


Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 1203
Location: Waco, TX
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ForteOz wrote:
TexasBearsFan wrote:
ForteOz wrote:
VeniceBearsFan wrote:
are you saying the bears players should have stooped to their level and retaliated?


I'm saying they had two options.



So yes, you're saying that you want the Bears to start taking cheap shots. I don't think that the Bears need to stoop that level.


I'm saying I don't want the team to sit there getting pushed around, looking for the refs to throw flags, when it is clear they aren't going to.
But sure, boil down my entire argument to 4 words, simplifying it to the point of ridiculousness, and refute it with what amounts to 'No'.

In real life, taking the high road is the right response 90-99% of the time. I know that. Football is far from real life. You ever watch playoff hockey? How does it compare to regular season hockey?

What I am saying is you play the game the way the refs allow it to be played, or you put yourself at a disadvantage.


I think that if we're going to complain about teams playing "dirty" as everyone did the ENTIRE week leading up to this game, how can you say that the Bears ought to have played the same way? By your logic, there is no boundary at all, you simply do whatever you can get away with in order to get a win. How about if no one is looking and you probably won't get a flag? Can you step on someone's hand while they're on the ground and break their fingers? How about "slipping and falling" on someone's ankle while they're on the ground and breaking it? How about gouging someone's eyes during a pileup? Can you do that if you can get away with it because the refs aren't looking or it's hard to see?

Or if that's not the exact tenor of your argument, how about we do what you suggested. What if it injures Stafford and ends his season? Still justified? What if it ends his career? What if we take a shot on Stafford and then, in retaliation for our retaliation, Suh goes low on Jay and ends *his* career? What everyone seems to forget is that these things you see running around on the field every weekend are LIVING PEOPLE. They aren't video game sprites, they aren't robot gladiators, they're people. You can't sit there and advocate putting people's health and livelihoods in jeopardy because the refs are calling a loose game. And that's exactly what happens when players start taking cheap shots. That's how careers get ended.

No, you play the game the way it is supposed to be played: within the boundaries of the rules. We didn't lose yesterday because of cheap shots or dirty play. Frankly, there weren't all that many. Fairly had a couple of suspect plays and that was about it. And I'll tell you what, if the rolls had been reversed and it had been Peppers driving Stafford to the turf there wouldn't be one Bears fan in this forum calling for Peppers's head. And had that happened and Suh retaliated against Jay, the screams of outrage would have been enormous. So no, I don't think that Trestman, who from what I've heard of him is a stand-up guy and as ethical as they come, has an obligation to encourage his players to play outside the rules.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
blkwdw13


Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 1641
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually like that the players didn't and don't resort to retaliating and cheap shots(this has nothing to do with saying the Lions take cheap shots), to me it just shows that they play the game the right way.

And about your mention of playoff hockey I guess you didn't watch the Blackhawks this past postseason. Because they definitely don't resort to cheap shots as much as other teams do, and the other teams respect that because Boston could have easily goon up the series if they wanted to.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ForteOz


Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Posts: 511
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TexasBearsFan wrote:
ForteOz wrote:
TexasBearsFan wrote:
ForteOz wrote:
VeniceBearsFan wrote:
are you saying the bears players should have stooped to their level and retaliated?


I'm saying they had two options.



So yes, you're saying that you want the Bears to start taking cheap shots. I don't think that the Bears need to stoop that level.


I'm saying I don't want the team to sit there getting pushed around, looking for the refs to throw flags, when it is clear they aren't going to.
But sure, boil down my entire argument to 4 words, simplifying it to the point of ridiculousness, and refute it with what amounts to 'No'.

In real life, taking the high road is the right response 90-99% of the time. I know that. Football is far from real life. You ever watch playoff hockey? How does it compare to regular season hockey?

What I am saying is you play the game the way the refs allow it to be played, or you put yourself at a disadvantage.


I think that if we're going to complain about teams playing "dirty" as everyone did the ENTIRE week leading up to this game, how can you say that the Bears ought to have played the same way? By your logic, there is no boundary at all, you simply do whatever you can get away with in order to get a win. How about if no one is looking and you probably won't get a flag? Can you step on someone's hand while they're on the ground and break their fingers? How about "slipping and falling" on someone's ankle while they're on the ground and breaking it? How about gouging someone's eyes during a pileup? Can you do that if you can get away with it because the refs aren't looking or it's hard to see?

Or if that's not the exact tenor of your argument, how about we do what you suggested. What if it injures Stafford and ends his season? Still justified? What if it ends his career? What if we take a shot on Stafford and then, in retaliation for our retaliation, Suh goes low on Jay and ends *his* career? What everyone seems to forget is that these things you see running around on the field every weekend are LIVING PEOPLE. They aren't video game sprites, they aren't robot gladiators, they're people. You can't sit there and advocate putting people's health and livelihoods in jeopardy because the refs are calling a loose game. And that's exactly what happens when players start taking cheap shots. That's how careers get ended.

No, you play the game the way it is supposed to be played: within the boundaries of the rules. We didn't lose yesterday because of cheap shots or dirty play. Frankly, there weren't all that many. Fairly had a couple of suspect plays and that was about it. And I'll tell you what, if the rolls had been reversed and it had been Peppers driving Stafford to the turf there wouldn't be one Bears fan in this forum calling for Peppers's head. And had that happened and Suh retaliated against Jay, the screams of outrage would have been enormous. So no, I don't think that Trestman, who from what I've heard of him is a stand-up guy and as ethical as they come, has an obligation to encourage his players to play outside the rules.


Quote:
I think that if we're going to complain about teams playing "dirty" as everyone did the ENTIRE week leading up to this game, how can you say that the Bears ought to have played the same way?

I can say that because it is on the refs to be the deterrent to such play. I can say that because there is no point in complaining about what the other team is willing to resort to, because that is out of our team's control. I can say that because there is no point in complaining that the refs are allowing it to happen, because what the refs penalize is also out of our team's control.
Just a few years ago, going helmet to helmet with a defenseless receiver to break up a pass was a part of playing defense. Nowadays, it is in the process of being removed from the game. Why is that? Because the players all collectively got together and had a gentleman's agreement to stop doing it? No, because the league starting fining and penalizing those plays heavily. That is the proper and effective way to remove it from the game.
Quote:
By your logic, there is no boundary at all

Can we agree to limit the discussion to late hits, without going down the rabbit hole of gouging eyes and breaking fingers, at least for the time being. Obviously I am not advocating that. Late hits are legal, subjective to how late they are, and are a seemingly accepted part of today's game.

Do you deny that all those extra hits have a negative effect on our QB, for the current game and down the road? You say these players are living people, and you are right. There are consequences to taking those kinds of actions against living, prideful people. At a minimum, those consequences include turnabout.
'An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind' is easy to say until someone pokes both your eyes out and you lose your job (which, btw is exactly what will happen if Trestman continues losing to Detroit).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VeniceBearsFan


Joined: 15 Feb 2010
Posts: 2332
Location: Venice, Florida
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like blaming the loss on the fact that were a few cheap shots isn't going to change the fact this bears team has a lot of weaknesses and the lions have a lot of strengths. the season isn't over yet and everyone can come back from the edge and get ready for next week...

that being said, the Bears didn't "just sit back and take it" you could see Kyle Long getting frustrated and thankfully he took the high road and tried to beat them on the field instead of taking cheap shots himself
_________________
ADOPT A BEAR= SHEA McCLELLIN

Sacks: 4
Tackles: 30.0
INTS: 0
FF: 0
FR: 1
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Badger75


Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 7016
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pro football has always been a high risk game.

Players and coaches have multiple layers of loyalty.

The Lions are functioning like a team.

Right now the Bears seem like 54 highly skilled players for hire.
Wink
_________________
"I have to keep playing so people over 40 will have somebody to root for on Sunday afternoons." George Blanda who played until he was 46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 34952
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You got it all backwards.

After the Bears took several cheap shots and played dirty, the Lions retaliated and responded. But I am sure you will never see it.

Until next time....keep your head in the clouds.
_________________
Draft_FanAddict wrote:
If that doesn't concern you, I don't know what would...a missing head?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
DaMike


Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 5347
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
You got it all backwards.

After the Bears took several cheap shots and played dirty, the Lions retaliated and responded. But I am sure you will never see it.

Until next time....keep your head in the clouds.
I will assume you're joking.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Badger75


Joined: 08 Apr 2008
Posts: 7016
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are extremes, such as the Buddy Ryan defenses of the old Vikings and Bears that may have created a bit of payback. Slick offenses such as Don Coryell are fun to watch but don't win playoff games.

Somewhere in between, the Bears need to kick around some lion.... Wink
_________________
"I have to keep playing so people over 40 will have somebody to root for on Sunday afternoons." George Blanda who played until he was 46
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Chicago Bears All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group