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Lions more coaching than Talent?
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TimeForChange


Joined: 15 Oct 2013
Posts: 1902
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree to disagree. I think some players are close in talent.

I don't put any stock in the wonderlic. Not because it goes against my argument but because I don't think it applies to football knowledge.

But as I said agree to disagree.
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FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeForChange wrote:
Agree to disagree. I think some players are close in talent.

I don't put any stock in the wonderlic. Not because it goes against my argument but because I don't think it applies to football knowledge.

But as I said agree to disagree.

To a point I agree on the wonderlic. But QB is one position where I would at least look at it since it is the most cerebral position on the field. But if you ever saw the wonderlic test, you would truly have to just about try to get below 12 or 14 really. I mean it takes a special type of ignorant person to score a 6 or 8. Truly. That is low enough to actually say something about a players' intelligence, regardless of how it relates to what.
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TimeForChange


Joined: 15 Oct 2013
Posts: 1902
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
TimeForChange wrote:
Agree to disagree. I think some players are close in talent.

I don't put any stock in the wonderlic. Not because it goes against my argument but because I don't think it applies to football knowledge.

But as I said agree to disagree.

To a point I agree on the wonderlic. But QB is one position where I would at least look at it since it is the most cerebral position on the field. But if you ever saw the wonderlic test, you would truly have to just about try to get below 12 or 14 really. I mean it takes a special type of ignorant person to score a 6 or 8. Truly. That is low enough to actually say something about a players' intelligence, regardless of how it relates to what.


I have taken the wonderlic before and I doubt the necessity for its application related to football. Don't get me started on standardized testing and its application to intelligence.

For leadership I would give Stafford an A+. Undoubtedly one of the best leaders this team has ever seen and a true field general. Great locker room guy from everything I have heard and cares 100% about winning and being the guy to lead the charge at the end. Very clutch.

For skills I would rank him very high. I think he has a cannon of an arm. I am concerned about his accuracy however. I think at times he tends to overthrow or under throw receivers. You make link this to decision making skills if you want but it has been a concern. We have seen terrible throws from him. At the same time he has shown a touch that is great and the ability to whip it into a receivers hands where I didn't know it was possible.

As far as decision making, there are times where I think he makes poor decisions or that gunslinger mentality that will cost us whether it is a pick or a unconverted 3rd down play. I also don't like his footwork. That concerns me as well.

Whether you want to lay that down to coaching, his inability, or just something he can put together he still has his red flags that will keep him from being #1. I think he is one of those QB's that can get the best out of his players though. I don't consider him a lob it to Megatron QB.

We can lay some of that down to coaching and some of that down to Stafford. I am concerned that this coaching staff will not be able to fully tap that potential. That they have accepted what they have with him and play around with that instead of improving.

What we are disagreeing about his the extent of his potential and how far he will go with it. I don't think we disagree about concerns of his ability. I also think you are underselling some of the younger QB's in the league but I don't really care about that.
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FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
Posts: 35190
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeForChange wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TimeForChange wrote:
Agree to disagree. I think some players are close in talent.

I don't put any stock in the wonderlic. Not because it goes against my argument but because I don't think it applies to football knowledge.

But as I said agree to disagree.

To a point I agree on the wonderlic. But QB is one position where I would at least look at it since it is the most cerebral position on the field. But if you ever saw the wonderlic test, you would truly have to just about try to get below 12 or 14 really. I mean it takes a special type of ignorant person to score a 6 or 8. Truly. That is low enough to actually say something about a players' intelligence, regardless of how it relates to what.


I have taken the wonderlic before and I doubt the necessity for its application related to football. Don't get me started on standardized testing and its application to intelligence.

For leadership I would give Stafford an A+. Undoubtedly one of the best leaders this team has ever seen and a true field general. Great locker room guy from everything I have heard and cares 100% about winning and being the guy to lead the charge at the end. Very clutch.

For skills I would rank him very high. I think he has a cannon of an arm. I am concerned about his accuracy however. I think at times he tends to overthrow or under throw receivers. You make link this to decision making skills if you want but it has been a concern. We have seen terrible throws from him. At the same time he has shown a touch that is great and the ability to whip it into a receivers hands where I didn't know it was possible.

As far as decision making, there are times where I think he makes poor decisions or that gunslinger mentality that will cost us whether it is a pick or a unconverted 3rd down play. I also don't like his footwork. That concerns me as well.

Whether you want to lay that down to coaching, his inability, or just something he can put together he still has his red flags that will keep him from being #1. I think he is one of those QB's that can get the best out of his players though. I don't consider him a lob it to Megatron QB.

We can lay some of that down to coaching and some of that down to Stafford. I am concerned that this coaching staff will not be able to fully tap that potential. That they have accepted what they have with him and play around with that instead of improving.

What we are disagreeing about his the extent of his potential and how far he will go with it. I don't think we disagree about concerns of his ability. I also think you are underselling some of the younger QB's in the league but I don't really care about that.

Honestly, your post here just supported my theory. Every knock you have is a learned behavior, not a talent related trait. So maybe you just don't realize it, but in maters of talent you seem to actually have the same feeling I do.

And I don't think we disagree on how far he will go with it at all. I doubt he will go much further than he already is because he seems to think he already arrived.
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TimeForChange


Joined: 15 Oct 2013
Posts: 1902
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://i.imgur.com/JI16oVf.png

I'm pretty proud of my paint skills. Laughing

So basically we are discussing on how we agree with each other? Wink
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Nnivolcm


Joined: 07 Aug 2008
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Location: Montana
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:

None of the QBs you mentioned are even nearly as smart as Stafford. Either RGIII or Newton, don't remember which, got like an 8 on the wonderlic.


Didn't RGIII graduate early from Baylor and get accepted into law school? You don't do that unless you're a smart individual.
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Nnivolcm


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeForChange wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/JI16oVf.png

I'm pretty proud of my paint skills. Laughing

So basically we are discussing on how we agree with each other? Wink


As long as I'm around, you'll always have the 2nd best MS paint skills. Laughing


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Last edited by Nnivolcm on Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Love it, see if Nnivolcm will bring out his Felton Sig, it is just as artistic Very Happy

Anyhow, my view of Stafford is not a popular one and I knew I would be met with at least a bit of resistance. No big deal, I understand. Unfortunately we will unlikely never know if we are right on him ever meeting that potential. The only way we will ever know either way really is if he does become the best QB in the league and I think we can both agree that is highly unlikely.

The point is moot anyhow though, as the thread is about players meeting potential due to coaching and we both agree Stafford is unlikely to meet his potential, wherever that may lie, due to the lack of sufficient coaching. So we agree on the point of the thread.
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TimeForChange


Joined: 15 Oct 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
Love it, see if Nnivolcm will bring out his Felton Sig, it is just as artistic Very Happy

Anyhow, my view of Stafford is not a popular one and I knew I would be met with at least a bit of resistance. No big deal, I understand. Unfortunately we will unlikely never know if we are right on him ever meeting that potential. The only way we will ever know either way really is if he does become the best QB in the league and I think we can both agree that is highly unlikely.

The point is moot anyhow though, as the thread is about players meeting potential due to coaching and we both agree Stafford is unlikely to meet his potential, wherever that may lie, due to the lack of sufficient coaching. So we agree on the point of the thread.


Absolutely.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I strongly disagree about talent and brains and Stafford being the best. I love Stafford, and he can probably make more throws than anyone in the league, but he is a ways behind in on field mental ability. However I think the coaches are to blame some for that.

Mainly, no one understands a defense and can adjust the play into something that will work like Payton Manning. And he still can make almost any throw. His mental understanding of the game is probably the best I have ever seen. Brady, Brees, and Rodgers are also better in this aspect than Stafford. I don't think the coaches give him enough freedom all the time either, but that may be due to his inability to see it pre snap.

Also, Stafford does not have the understanding of how hard to throw a ball and when to put touch on it. He can with a goal line fade, but the rest of the field is strictly bullets. He is awful in throwing screens and bush has dropped a few because he is catching a fastball from three yards away.

I think Stafford has potential to improve, but what I have seen says it won't get close to the Manning level.

As far as Stafford vs Ryan, Kapernick, Wilson, RG3... I wouldn't think of trading Stafford for any of them. I wouldn't trade him for Brees, Brady or. Manning either due to long term quality but they are all still better now. Rodgers I would trade for in a heartbeat, but if Stafford continues to improve that may change by the end of the year.
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Rockcity


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stafford is the fn man deal with it.. once we get our wrs and tes figured out we all will be acting like packer fans lol
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Nnivolcm


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockcity wrote:
we all will be acting like packer fans lol
God I hope not.
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Laimbrane


Joined: 04 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:

Honestly, your post here just supported my theory. Every knock you have is a learned behavior, not a talent related trait. So maybe you just don't realize it, but in maters of talent you seem to actually have the same feeling I do.

And I don't think we disagree on how far he will go with it at all. I doubt he will go much further than he already is because he seems to think he already arrived.


Not to nitpick, but most (if not all) talent is learned behavior. His natural intellectual gifts are likely limited to good memory and the rest a product of people around him; his leadership and confidence comes from his parents and everyone around him telling him how awesome he is all his life, his strong arm likely came through repetition and strength-training, etc.

Certain genetic things - like appearance, early growth and development, etc. - make a HUGE impact on how much "talent" someone displays later in life. There is an increasing body of research that is showing that far less of athletes' success is due to natural gifts than we commonly believe; it's more often due to circumstances early in life that lend people around that person to give him the identity of elite athlete, which that athlete then tends to live up to. Stafford's talent is mostly environmentally caused.
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detroitroar


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeForChange wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/JI16oVf.png

I'm pretty proud of my paint skills. Laughing

So basically we are discussing on how we agree with each other? Wink



Man I got a good laugh out of this.

Thanks! Laughing
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laimbrane wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:

Honestly, your post here just supported my theory. Every knock you have is a learned behavior, not a talent related trait. So maybe you just don't realize it, but in maters of talent you seem to actually have the same feeling I do.

And I don't think we disagree on how far he will go with it at all. I doubt he will go much further than he already is because he seems to think he already arrived.


Not to nitpick, but most (if not all) talent is learned behavior. His natural intellectual gifts are likely limited to good memory and the rest a product of people around him; his leadership and confidence comes from his parents and everyone around him telling him how awesome he is all his life, his strong arm likely came through repetition and strength-training, etc.

Certain genetic things - like appearance, early growth and development, etc. - make a HUGE impact on how much "talent" someone displays later in life. There is an increasing body of research that is showing that far less of athletes' success is due to natural gifts than we commonly believe; it's more often due to circumstances early in life that lend people around that person to give him the identity of elite athlete, which that athlete then tends to live up to. Stafford's talent is mostly environmentally caused.

While I fully understand what you are trying to say, when I speak of talent I am more speaking on God-given gifts that cannot be learned, such as the intelligence to recall tape, analyze formations on field from those memories and the pure arm strength that bench pressing can not create.
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