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Lions more coaching than Talent?
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FootballPhreak


Joined: 09 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Alot of people disagree with me but;

Stafford is the single most talented QB in the entire league. He has infinitely more talent than Brady, Brees, Manning. But he has not been able to make use of his talent fully. Although the fade to CJ yesterday showed a ton of discipline.

Regardless, when a QB is that talented and is mentioned outside the top ten as the OP suggested, I think it does say something about coaching alright....
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andjordand


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:37 am    Post subject: Re: Lions more coaching than Talent? Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
which of SEA, DEN, PHI, NE, GB, CHI, DAL, SF, and NO would trade even one unit of our for theirs? It's not very many. None of those would take Stafford over their QB. Maybe CHI would take our RBs but that is a big maybe. NE & SF would take our WRs but nothing else of ours. None would take our TEs nor OL over theirs. SO looking at the talent on our Offense we are playing better than our talent show it seems.



Have you seen how the Seattle offensive line has been playing recently? Have you seen how Tom Brady and Colin Kaepernick lately? Or the Dallas running backs?

What an awful analysis. Besides New England we have (by a significant margin IMO) the best pass blocking line of all those listed. Stafford has also been outplaying the QB on all of those teams save for Denver Green Bay Dallas and New Orleans. And Seattle, Philly, New England Green Bay (with injuries) and San Fran would take our receiving corps in a heartbeat.
I have seen those guys. You think NE would trade Brady for Stafford for the season? Or Kap for Stafford? Prolly not. In fact I know not. Just because Stafford is outplaying doesn't mean he is better.f Durham outplayed Fitz would that make him better? Just because our line is playing well doesn't mean out line is filled with talent. 4 teams thought their OGs were better than Warford in this draft alone. Heck the Bears took their RT and RG before we got ours.


I hear what your saying, about Stafford and Durham, but as a unit, this offense is playing well enough to get the job done. even if there's a bit too much reliance on Stafford to Johnson. 146 yards on 24 carries for 6.1 ypc is the difference from last year to this year, which required the Bears defense to go single coverage on CJ to set-up his two TD's to get the win on the road against a division rival.


You can't say there's not something special with this offensive Line. Most underrated OL in football, IMO. They remind me of the 2010 Packers OL Nobody outside of Warford is really a pro-bowler, but collectively they have shown to be a real strength and are probably the Lions best unit, overall, which bodes well for the playoffs if they can secure a home-field advantage.

I think Linehan has done a commendable job at getting this offense ready to play during the week, which has shown on the field by the team shedding their slow-start reputation. The next step is getting Stafford to mature into the franchise QB that can change plays at the snap to make the right adjustments, with Burleson back and Ogletree/Ross becoming decent slot WR options, this offense will then be able to make a postseason push.
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Nnivolcm


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Lions more coaching than Talent? Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
4 teams thought their OGs were better than Warford in this draft alone. Heck the Bears took their RT and RG before we got ours.


This is the worst argument I've ever heard, and I've gotten into a lot of arguments with detfan.
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TimeForChange


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Alot of people disagree with me but;

Stafford is the single most talented QB in the entire league. He has infinitely more talent than Brady, Brees, Manning. But he has not been able to make use of his talent fully. Although the fade to CJ yesterday showed a ton of discipline.

Regardless, when a QB is that talented and is mentioned outside the top ten as the OP suggested, I think it does say something about coaching alright....


Well I would be one to disagree with you there. Very hard to disprove that he isn't but I just don't see it. There are times when he makes plays that are just amazing but other times you can see why he isn't the best. Very hard for me to agree that Stafford >>>>>Brady, Peyton, etc if all his potential is tapped. You could also argue that all of Brady's potential hasn't been tapped into or Bree's or whoever etc. I don't want to cut hairs with you though. I think he is top 10 but to say not only the best but much better than even the second best QB in the league? I don't see it. Very hard for me to prove though. Laughing

I do agree that many of our players let alone Stafford aren't able to tap into or use most of their potential because we have a poor coaching staff.

Is it poor drafting or do we lack the coaching to develop these 3rd, 4th, 5th round players?
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detroitroar


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
Rockcity wrote:
Lol john clayton..qb guru...

My issue is with the GM. Coaching is doing ok with what they have to work with..still would like a better OC


Did not even see the John Clayton thing. The great Terry Bradshaw said he would take Stafford over the likes of Brady and others on pre-game show today. Laughing

Cracked me up as much as I like Stafford his list was a bit off



He mentioned Brees and Peyton as well. The guy is a little cu cu.

But John Clayton calling Stafford not top 10 coming into the season? Who gives a crap.

Id bet you he had the likes of RG3 and Kaepernick ahead of him, even though they did nothing to deserve it and look like bottom tier QBs this year.

Last season will forever be the most over-hyped young QB season ever.

Stafford has unarguably been a top 6 QB this year.
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theuntouchable


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeForChange wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Alot of people disagree with me but;

Stafford is the single most talented QB in the entire league. He has infinitely more talent than Brady, Brees, Manning. But he has not been able to make use of his talent fully. Although the fade to CJ yesterday showed a ton of discipline.

Regardless, when a QB is that talented and is mentioned outside the top ten as the OP suggested, I think it does say something about coaching alright....


Well I would be one to disagree with you there. Very hard to disprove that he isn't but I just don't see it. There are times when he makes plays that are just amazing but other times you can see why he isn't the best. Very hard for me to agree that Stafford >>>>>Brady, Peyton, etc if all his potential is tapped. You could also argue that all of Brady's potential hasn't been tapped into or Bree's or whoever etc. I don't want to cut hairs with you though. I think he is top 10 but to say not only the best but much better than even the second best QB in the league? I don't see it. Very hard for me to prove though. Laughing

I do agree that many of our players let alone Stafford aren't able to tap into or use most of their potential because we have a poor coaching staff.

Is it poor drafting or do we lack the coaching to develop these 3rd, 4th, 5th round players?


I think the thing youre missing out on is that I believe phreak is referring primarily to Staffords physical talents as a QB, which the only player I would put above him in that aspect us Rodgers. The thing that Stafford needs to catch up on is consistency with his reads and footwork. That, IMO, is what is holding him back from being elite. Being able to read a defense and being able to use great mechanics are definitly there, it just hasnt been near consistent enough for Stafford to become an elite QB. Hence the jaw-dropping amazing throw one drive, to the bone-headed what the heck happened there with the next.

Stafford has the skills to be one of the very best, if he puts it all together and stays consistent.
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TimeForChange


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theuntouchable wrote:
Stafford has the skills to be one of the very best, if he puts it all together and stays consistent.


So do many other young QB's if you put it in those words. To be fair Stafford has shown more than most and he only has a few issues. I think he has been great this year as well.

But do his mental mistakes fall under coaching or is it something he will never be able to get over?

I think it may be something he will never get over and fall more under the "gunslinger" label sometimes.

Just to clarify, I see the point trying to be made and its a valid one, just not one I necessarily agree with.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theuntouchable wrote:
TimeForChange wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
I've said it before, I'll say it again. Alot of people disagree with me but;

Stafford is the single most talented QB in the entire league. He has infinitely more talent than Brady, Brees, Manning. But he has not been able to make use of his talent fully. Although the fade to CJ yesterday showed a ton of discipline.

Regardless, when a QB is that talented and is mentioned outside the top ten as the OP suggested, I think it does say something about coaching alright....


Well I would be one to disagree with you there. Very hard to disprove that he isn't but I just don't see it. There are times when he makes plays that are just amazing but other times you can see why he isn't the best. Very hard for me to agree that Stafford >>>>>Brady, Peyton, etc if all his potential is tapped. You could also argue that all of Brady's potential hasn't been tapped into or Bree's or whoever etc. I don't want to cut hairs with you though. I think he is top 10 but to say not only the best but much better than even the second best QB in the league? I don't see it. Very hard for me to prove though. Laughing

I do agree that many of our players let alone Stafford aren't able to tap into or use most of their potential because we have a poor coaching staff.

Is it poor drafting or do we lack the coaching to develop these 3rd, 4th, 5th round players?


I think the thing youre missing out on is that I believe phreak is referring primarily to Staffords physical talents as a QB, which the only player I would put above him in that aspect us Rodgers. The thing that Stafford needs to catch up on is consistency with his reads and footwork. That, IMO, is what is holding him back from being elite. Being able to read a defense and being able to use great mechanics are definitly there, it just hasnt been near consistent enough for Stafford to become an elite QB. Hence the jaw-dropping amazing throw one drive, to the bone-headed what the heck happened there with the next.

Stafford has the skills to be one of the very best, if he puts it all together and stays consistent.

Exactly it. I can see Rodgers being considered, but I think Stafford has him.

I am judging purely on what the good Lord has given him. Arm strength, ability to analyze, learn, ect. Stafford is off the charts in these aspects and if he could tap them and be consistent as you stated, I have little doubt he would be the best in the NFL.

Like you stated, he shows flashes of absolute brilliance. But I think the problem lies in that he acts and our coaching staff acts as though he already has it and already hit his ceiling. If that is the fact of the matter, then he has.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeForChange wrote:
So do many other young QB's if you put it in those words

None of them have the arm and brain Stafford does. As UT said, maybe Rodgers, but I don't think so. He can throw a ball as hard and as far as anyone in the NFL and all his memory/analytical testing was off the charts.
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TimeForChange


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
TimeForChange wrote:
So do many other young QB's if you put it in those words

None of them have the arm and brain Stafford does. As UT said, maybe Rodgers, but I don't think so. He can throw a ball as hard and as far as anyone in the NFL and all his memory/analytical testing was off the charts.


And I would disagree. Not that Stafford is that talented but that similar arguments could be made for other QB's if we had them put it all together.

I don't think Stafford taps into that potential based both on coaching and his own ability to do so. More so because of coaching though.

Actually I'm not really sure of the point of this discussion. I say Stafford is easily a top 5 or top 10 QB in this league now. I do think he gets better but I don't ever think he will be consensus number 1 or 2.

I'm okay with that though. I think he is a great leader and someone who will lead us through the playoffs if we can get that. He is clutch and talented with respect from his teammates.

I'm happy with what we got. I feel like my argument is just starting to pick on little differences when its not necessary.
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Nnivolcm


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Stafford easily has the physical tools to be the best QB in the league. He just hasn't shown the mental aspect I'd hoped to see by this stage in his career yet. The good news is he is still young and can improve.

Although, he is a Lion and has Calvin to throw to so the vast majority of fans will never consider him to be top 5-8 imo.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeForChange wrote:
that similar arguments could be made for other QB's if we had them put it all together.

That's just it. There really can't be. At least not a meaningful one. Some may have one or 2 traits similar, but none of them can match all the meaningful traits as Stafford can. Except possibly Rodgers, and Luck has a chance, but I don't think so. RGIII has no chance, Brady, Brees, Manning are all doing more than they should be by being highly cerebral QBs. Something Stafford has the ability to become while also having superior arm strength.

As you said, I find it highly unlikely the way it looks he ever hits that ceiling though because it seems like he is treated as though he has already arrived. A point I couldn't disagree with more and also one that will hold him back from ever becoming what he could be.
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theuntouchable


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
TimeForChange wrote:
that similar arguments could be made for other QB's if we had them put it all together.

That's just it. There really can't be. At least not a meaningful one. Some may have one or 2 traits similar, but none of them can match all the meaningful traits as Stafford can. Except possibly Rodgers, and Luck has a chance, but I don't think so. RGIII has no chance, Brady, Brees, Manning are all doing more than they should be by being highly cerebral QBs. Something Stafford has the ability to become while also having superior arm strength.

As you said, I find it highly unlikely the way it looks he ever hits that ceiling though because it seems like he is treated as though he has already arrived. A point I couldn't disagree with more and also one that will hold him back from ever becoming what he could be.


Timeforchange, who could those arguments really apply to? Stafford up until this point has shown elite capability in all aspects of being a QB, he just hasnt done so consistently. I cannot name another QB that would match that other than Rodgers who has done it consistently.
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TimeForChange


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theuntouchable wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TimeForChange wrote:
that similar arguments could be made for other QB's if we had them put it all together.

That's just it. There really can't be. At least not a meaningful one. Some may have one or 2 traits similar, but none of them can match all the meaningful traits as Stafford can. Except possibly Rodgers, and Luck has a chance, but I don't think so. RGIII has no chance, Brady, Brees, Manning are all doing more than they should be by being highly cerebral QBs. Something Stafford has the ability to become while also having superior arm strength.

As you said, I find it highly unlikely the way it looks he ever hits that ceiling though because it seems like he is treated as though he has already arrived. A point I couldn't disagree with more and also one that will hold him back from ever becoming what he could be.


Timeforchange, who could those arguments really apply to? Stafford up until this point has shown elite capability in all aspects of being a QB, he just hasnt done so consistently. I cannot name another QB that would match that other than Rodgers who has done it consistently.


I think some players like Newton, RGIII, Luck, or Wilson all have their arguments that if they changed this or that and brought everything together they would raise their level. Maybe not to Staffords level but they could still raise it. The physical tools are there and they are smart football players but just off here or there on something.

I'm really not trying to bash on Stafford. I just think he is closer to his ceiling than what you guys think. Not that I would take any QB over Stafford either. Just I have lower view of him as far as potential moving forward.

Physically talented I think Cam is there and decision making/cerebral thinking I think Luck or Wilson are there as well.

If Cam could be smarter in his reads then I think he would be up there and if Luck/Wilson could put a little more power behind there throws I think they would be up there as well.

I will gladly eat my words though if in the next few years he starts to get things clicking and becomes numero uno superstar-o.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeForChange wrote:
theuntouchable wrote:
FootballPhreak wrote:
TimeForChange wrote:
that similar arguments could be made for other QB's if we had them put it all together.

That's just it. There really can't be. At least not a meaningful one. Some may have one or 2 traits similar, but none of them can match all the meaningful traits as Stafford can. Except possibly Rodgers, and Luck has a chance, but I don't think so. RGIII has no chance, Brady, Brees, Manning are all doing more than they should be by being highly cerebral QBs. Something Stafford has the ability to become while also having superior arm strength.

As you said, I find it highly unlikely the way it looks he ever hits that ceiling though because it seems like he is treated as though he has already arrived. A point I couldn't disagree with more and also one that will hold him back from ever becoming what he could be.


Timeforchange, who could those arguments really apply to? Stafford up until this point has shown elite capability in all aspects of being a QB, he just hasnt done so consistently. I cannot name another QB that would match that other than Rodgers who has done it consistently.


I think some players like Newton, RGIII, Luck, or Wilson all have their arguments that if they changed this or that and brought everything together they would raise their level. Maybe not to Staffords level but they could still raise it. The physical tools are there and they are smart football players but just off here or there on something.

I'm really not trying to bash on Stafford. I just think he is closer to his ceiling than what you guys think. Not that I would take any QB over Stafford either. Just I have lower view of him as far as potential moving forward.

Physically talented I think Cam is there and decision making/cerebral thinking I think Luck or Wilson are there as well.

If Cam could be smarter in his reads then I think he would be up there and if Luck/Wilson could put a little more power behind there throws I think they would be up there as well.

I will gladly eat my words though if in the next few years he starts to get things clicking and becomes numero uno superstar-o.

None of the QBs you mentioned are even nearly as smart as Stafford. Either RGIII or Newton, don't remember which, got like an 8 on the wonderlic. The guys you mentioned did not test nearly as well in chalkboard work and analyzation as Stafford. Not even one was close, except Luck as I said previous. By all reports Stafford was able to remember a HS game during a combine interview; a random game brought up and a random play. Stafford was able to remember precisely the play called, the play he audibled, the defense that caused him to audible, and precisely where each player was and their duties within the play called on both offense and defense and why. Even drew it on the blackboard.

Just a random play brought up in an interview, 4 years past when it happened. By any reports I read, he is the only one that was ever able to do as such in a combine interview.

No, none of the QBs you brought up compare in natural talents. Not one. And there is no reasonable argument to such.
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