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Lions more coaching than Talent?
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skatebeanz


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Lions more coaching than Talent? Reply with quote

So I hear people say Lions are underperforming their talent, etc, etc, etc...

I am going to go thru piece by piece and prove that the Lions are riding better coaching than talent using outside views not our "homer views".

First off I'll start with something that directly brings talent in.
Drafting.
According to a Football Outsiders article the Lions are the 3rd worse drafting team in the entire NFL. That is a direct pipeline to talent. Most of the highest rated talent teams they using drafting to bring in talent. Most teams and most good teams will say you need to draft well to be successful.

Offense.
QB: Stafford.
John Clayton tabbed Matt as the 12th best QB but 4 QBs under him all high arrows pointing up and just played their first years as starter. FF.com had him as high as 8 and as low as 14. The average around 11. So a fairly close consensus is Stafford isn't even top 10 and that is the most important position in the NFL.

RB: Bush.
FF.com doesn't even have him listed in a 8 page discussion of best RBs. I don't have a link but I bet some would say he is fighting for the 3rd best RB in this division. That doesn't include RBs like Charles fighting for MVP, or McCoy, etc... Id say consensus is he is around 16 or middle of the pack.

WR: Johnson, Durham.
It's clear Johnson is the #1 player at his position. Without even bringing stuff up. However some have him 5th (Randy Moss), some say he is a product of our system (NBT). Regardless I'll give him title of best at his position. Durham on the other hand is a UDFA playing for minimum of close to minimum. As of DEC last year he wasn't good enough according to GMS around the NFL to be one of the best 150 WRs in the NFL.

TE: Pettigrew, Fauria.
I can't find anything directly ranking TEs but Grew has mixed opinions. He is one of the most drop plagued TEs in the NFL. I'd assume he is at Best ranked no higher than 10 or lower than 20. Middle of the pack. Fauria is an UDFA and I'd say he is at best around the 50th bets maybe.

OL: Reiff, Sims, etc...
During the draft everyone said the Lions were desperate for OL help. They needed an OT or LT. Most experts had us getting OG or C possibly too. Just showing how bad before the draft they felt we were. We didn't get an OT or C. We got a OG but was the 4th one selected in this draft class alone. We have an UDFA as RT. Fair to say the NFL as a whole wouldn't rank any member on the Lions better than top 10 at their position. Some I'd bet would have them near the bottom 5th even.

So as a whole on offense the Lions have 1 player above top 10 in their position as a consensus.

Looking at the top 10 teams in the NFL in scoring which of SEA, DEN, PHI, NE, GB, CHI, DAL, SF, and NO would trade even one unit of our for theirs? It's not very many. None of those would take Stafford over their QB. Maybe CHI would take our RBs but that is a big maybe. NE & SF would take our WRs but nothing else of ours. None would take our TEs nor OL over theirs. SO looking at the talent on our Offense we are playing better than our talent show it seems.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say there is a lot of coaching going on.

Durham improvement is insane.

Detroit lacks DE play all year really but staff is making up for it in other areas.



Linehan is only one I really have been upset with at times the most
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Nnivolcm


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree with your (their?) assessment of our Oline. I think we have at least 3 players who are playing like a top 10 player at their position. Warford has been a top 10 RG, Reiff has arguably been a top 10 LT, and Raiola has been a top 10 C.
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stylish313


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't say that I agree with anything written in the OP.
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Louis Friend


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stylish313 wrote:
I can't say that I agree with anything written in the OP.


Agreed.
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BlackandBlue


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Lions more coaching than Talent? Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
which of SEA, DEN, PHI, NE, GB, CHI, DAL, SF, and NO would trade even one unit of our for theirs? It's not very many. None of those would take Stafford over their QB. Maybe CHI would take our RBs but that is a big maybe. NE & SF would take our WRs but nothing else of ours. None would take our TEs nor OL over theirs. SO looking at the talent on our Offense we are playing better than our talent show it seems.



Have you seen how the Seattle offensive line has been playing recently? Have you seen how Tom Brady and Colin Kaepernick lately? Or the Dallas running backs?

What an awful analysis. Besides New England we have (by a significant margin IMO) the best pass blocking line of all those listed. Stafford has also been outplaying the QB on all of those teams save for Denver Green Bay Dallas and New Orleans. And Seattle, Philly, New England Green Bay (with injuries) and San Fran would take our receiving corps in a heartbeat.
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detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:

So Mark Sanchez was a better player last season than Russel Wilson?

Depends on what you are looking for. Breaking down defenses I would take Sanchez no doubt.
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Rockcity


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol john clayton..qb guru...

My issue is with the GM. Coaching is doing ok with what they have to work with..still would like a better OC
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockcity wrote:
Lol john clayton..qb guru...

My issue is with the GM. Coaching is doing ok with what they have to work with..still would like a better OC


Did not even see the John Clayton thing. The great Terry Bradshaw said he would take Stafford over the likes of Brady and others on pre-game show today. Laughing

Cracked me up as much as I like Stafford his list was a bit off
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ruffryderbiff


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Lions more coaching than Talent? Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:

Drafting.
According to a Football Outsiders article the Lions are the 3rd worse drafting team in the entire NFL. That is a direct pipeline to talent. Most of the highest rated talent teams they using drafting to bring in talent. Most teams and most good teams will say you need to draft well to be successful.


A few things i noticed after reading the FO article:
-The time frame for the analysis is from 1970 to 2007. I don't believe you can judge this front office using the article due to the fact that the time frame is so broad and they aren't even included in it.
-The 30th overall ranking is the Lion's overall record from that time period. The two values to look at in the article are the Value Above Expectation (VAE) and the Return On Investment (ROI). They seem like better barometers for measurement IMO. The Lions rank 18th and 16th respectively.
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FootballPhreak


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louis Friend wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
I can't say that I agree with anything written in the OP.


Agreed.

Me too.
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IDOG_det


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lions position coaches are stupidly underrated. Even with the loss of Tim Walton to STL.
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Nnivolcm


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IDOG_det wrote:
Lions position coaches are stupidly underrated. Even with the loss of Tim Walton to STL.


Just wish the secondary coaches would preach to try to locate the ball instead of playing the receiver's hands.
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Sllim Pickens


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FootballPhreak wrote:
Louis Friend wrote:
stylish313 wrote:
I can't say that I agree with anything written in the OP.


Agreed.

Me too.


Me too, but I will elaborate some.

Drafting - Its allready been pointed out that the article is outdated and uses way too much of a span to be used to judge/grade what we have now. Our drafting of skill position players aside from Calvin and Stafford has been pretty bad, but I think the draft pick success rate in the Mayhew era is middle of the road or better.

QB - Those rankings were stupid. No way I take Kapernick, RG3, or a few others over Stafford. He has his downfalls, and IMO those downfalls are why we dont blow people out, but he is a top 10 QB. He had a down year last year and still threw for 4,500 yards. The year before last he was a consensus top 10 QB and is playing that way this season.

WR - I don't think anyone aside from Durham has been coached up. And Durham wasn't an UDFA he was a 4th round pick that we picked up after he was cut. He had talent, he was raw though and didn't fit what Seattle wanted. I think the WR's aside from Calvin have been disapointing though and its the main reason we struggle at times on offense.

RB - Bush hasn't been a top 10 RB due to his career in New Orleans splitting carries and injury concerns. On the field he absolutely is a top 10 RB when healthy.

TE is about all I can kind of agree with but again they have been disapointing due to lack of development. Fauria may have been an UDFA but it was due to his inability to block at all. He pretty much is a slow WR, but the height creates matchups. And being an UDFA means little, because plenty of guys who are UDFA's have done well in this league. I would say Fauria is likely top 5-7 at his position as far as a red zone target right now, and thats how he has been utilized.

OL - People said we needed a gaurd and center. We drafted an OG that many said was nearly as good of a prospect as Chance Warmack and our Center added weight and strength finally. I think RT we may have got lucky on but I think the overall strength of the line has made it easier to plug and play at RT.


Now do a lot of these players benefit from playing with each other? Absolutely, but they would in any offenseive system. I think our coaching has improved over the years aside from Linehans play calling, but they definitely arent the bigger reason for winning. Adding talent through free agency and the draft the last few years is why we are a better team.
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skatebeanz


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying I agree with anything I put. I'm saying according to Packer and Bear fans we have all this talent yet Lions are never mentioned with talent. Even our stars like Suh and such have thread saying they are overrated, that he is around 8th best interior linemen etc. I didn't get to finish defense. But most people have Nick as the 12th best front seven player in his own draft class. Ansah was seen as a reach. That Bears fan from the GDT said the Lions overwhelms the coaching but using other teams thought not many teams in the top 10 in scoring would trade one position group for ours.
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skatebeanz


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:52 am    Post subject: Re: Lions more coaching than Talent? Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
skatebeanz wrote:
which of SEA, DEN, PHI, NE, GB, CHI, DAL, SF, and NO would trade even one unit of our for theirs? It's not very many. None of those would take Stafford over their QB. Maybe CHI would take our RBs but that is a big maybe. NE & SF would take our WRs but nothing else of ours. None would take our TEs nor OL over theirs. SO looking at the talent on our Offense we are playing better than our talent show it seems.



Have you seen how the Seattle offensive line has been playing recently? Have you seen how Tom Brady and Colin Kaepernick lately? Or the Dallas running backs?

What an awful analysis. Besides New England we have (by a significant margin IMO) the best pass blocking line of all those listed. Stafford has also been outplaying the QB on all of those teams save for Denver Green Bay Dallas and New Orleans. And Seattle, Philly, New England Green Bay (with injuries) and San Fran would take our receiving corps in a heartbeat.
I have seen those guys. You think NE would trade Brady for Stafford for the season? Or Kap for Stafford? Prolly not. In fact I know not. Just because Stafford is outplaying doesn't mean he is better. If Durham outplayed Fitz would that make him better? Just because our line is playing well doesn't mean out line is filled with talent. 4 teams thought their OGs were better than Warford in this draft alone. Heck the Bears took their RT and RG before we got ours.
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