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Lions (5-3) at Bears (5-3) GDT
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DTOW


Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 1248
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't think there were any "dirty" plays by either team in this game.
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TimeForChange


Joined: 15 Oct 2013
Posts: 1814
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good game guys. Cutler was a warrior out there.

Fairley IMO have a few dirty plays and I think Suh held onto that facemask a little too long. Levy also shoved Marshall when they were out of bounds. Questionable, dirty, cheap, etc--they weren't needed.

The lack of discipline and professionalism of the Lions can be discouraging at times.

I don't really remember any "dirty" plays from the Bears.
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Roadrunner


Joined: 20 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugashane wrote:
Timothy67 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Timothy67 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
Timothy67 wrote:
As dumb as it sounds we need a new kicker 0 for 11 is pathetic.
LMAO, he is the 3rd most accurate kicker in LEAGUE HISTORY. And has done that in SOLDIER FREAKING FIELD. He honestly has a legit argument for GOAT, and you think needs to be replaced????


Yes I do. To be honest the difference between 3rd best in history and entirely average is rather small when it comes to kickers.


On the other hand he is the worst in history for onside kicks.


You know how many teams would kill to have Robbie Gould on their roster?


Yes, teams that have had horrible kickers. I honestly would trade him for an entirely average kicker, say in the 11 to 14 range, that actually has some diversity and can kick an onside kick.

My point is you do not fall off going from a great kicker to an average kicker, from great to poor, yes its a big drop off, but not to average, the points are pretty small. On the other hand being the worst onside kicker ever basically means you have ZERO chance ever of winning in a game where you need an onside.

Its a matter of opinion.


Nonsense. Just nonsense.

So as per this site-
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/fg_perc_career.htm

Gould it 6th all time, with 2 guys having only been in for less than 2 seasons, so he is 4th with any real body of work at 86%. There are 202 listed, so average would be 101, who is Toni Fritsch, who had a career average of 70%.

So out of 100 field goals, Gould nets you about 258 points, "average" nets you 210. 48 missed points is pretty a pretty good difference, especially when we have won and lost many games by less than a TD. You may win a few onside kicks, but it is just as likely you would have won just for the simple fact of having a better kicker, if you eve get the chance to win anyway.

And if you want actual depth to the argument, it can easily be said the Gould is the best kicker of all time. In the Adjusted Accuracy he is clearly the best.

http://sbronars.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/measured-properly-bears-kicker-robbie-gould-is-most-accurate-kicker-in-nfl-history/

I'll take that over onside recoveries, which have also been a massive failure by the cover team, having had several penalties and bobbled opportunities.


"There are 202 listed, so average would be 101....."

While I agree with your contention that Gould is nowhere near average, without doing any calculations, I can tell you that it is highly unlikely Fritsch is the average. He may be the median, but median does not necessarily equate to the mean.
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ForteOz


Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Posts: 511
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We knew this one wasn't going to be easy. Divisional game, in the cold, with our starting QB coming back early from an injury, and the division lead on the line. With all of the injuries in the division, Detroit knew this was a game they couldn't let get away, and in the end, they did what they needed to do to win. So first things first, kudos to the Lions, and here's hoping to round three.

Before I get to the bad, I want to talk about the good. How lucky are we as fans to get to see these two receivers playing for us? Just two years ago we would have given our left you-know-what for just one guy that could play at their level, and now we have two. As great as Marshall's game was, Jeffrey was *this* close to topping him, with the two near TD's (the first goal line drop, then the TD questionably overturned). Hopefully we get to see those two together for years to come.

The defense played well enough to put us in a position to win, which is all we can really hope for out of them these days. Good to see Conte making some positive impact plays, it at least makes the blunders easier to swallow. The DLine pressure was non-existent, but at least they were making plays by batting down balls.

And now for the bad...
Our OLine got dominated. 3 sacks (including the one taken away by the facemask), countless QB hits, but most importantly, absolutely nothing going for us in the run game. The Lions defensive strategy was simple and effective: shut down the run, and smash the quarterback every time he drops back. If the Oline does a better job protecting, they don't get the opportunity for late hits, and the screen/sweep game just wasn't working, so we had no choice but to play into their strength. That unit right there won the game for the Lions, and we couldn't, or will unwilling, to answer it.

But in the end, I think the players did enough to put us into a position to win, even with McCown coming in for the final drive. Nope, I'm not gonna rag on the players for this one. The party responsible for this loss was on the sidelines the whole game.

The no Field Goal call. You know those games we won where afterwards folks would come in here and say 'No way we win that game with Lovie coaching.' Well, here's one where you could say, 'No way Lovie blows that call', and you would be right. We have arguably the best kicker in the league, don't overthink it, take the points. Trestman will say something to the effect of 'we trust in our players to execute', yada yada, but you just don't leave the points on the board that early in the game. Rookie head coach, let's hope he's getting those out of his system this year.

The two point conversion plays. Why are we getting cute and trying to outsmart the opponent with the game on the line and our back up QB in? We roll out our jumbo package (meaning Marshall and Jeffrey are out), give them a run look, then switch out and throw a pass. WTF??? NO! All they have to do is double, hell even triple up Marty B and who are we going to throw it to? Rosario???
Detroit then pulls-a-Lions and gives us another chance. Phew. Marshall and Jeffrey come back on to the field. Phew. Jump ball time, pick your target: A-Marshall, B-Jeffrey, C-Marty B (Correct answer: any of the above!).
Then what do they do? Audible into a run up the gut which hasn't worked all game. Are you FRIGGIN KIDDING ME???

My bigger problem, though, was with the defensive coaching. I'm not sure if Trestman or Tucker is more to blame, but I'll explain in a different post since this one qualifies for National Novel Writing Month already.
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DaMike


Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 5346
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nnivolcm wrote:
DaMike wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
more dirtier


Hehe. Laughing

I honestly don't remember any dirty plays by Suh this game. Could anyone name any examples for me and I'll look for them when I re watch the game tomorrow?

I know Fairley had one borderline late hit that wasn't called. It was the one where Long looked like he was about to do a running jump on Fairley on the ground afterwords but stopped and stood over him.

I saw some people had issues with the Levy hit on Marshall after he had a deep catch over the middle, but you only have to remember last Thanksgiving to know it wasn't dirty. Marshall was looking like he was going to get up and run and the whistle hadn't been blown yet. Last Thanksgiving the Texans RB was tackled and popped back up and kept running for a TD and it ended up costing us the game.
I dont think anyone had an issue with the Levy hit.

Fairley hit McCown late when he spun him around and threw him to the ground.

Also the obvious one where after the play he grabbed Jay and tackled him with his body weight. That was the bad one since it was so late and he really had to fight through traffic for an extend period of time to actually be able to land on him.

Both of Tillman's were accidental and werent dirty at all.


So no dirty plays by Suh? Ok, I saw the same thing as you did than. A couple dumb plays by Fairley, and a pretty clean game from everyone else.
Suh was clean as a whistle from what I saw. Really it was only Fairley. There were penatly on both sides but the only stuff I would consider dirty were both from Fairley.

I thought Long was going to but he gained his composure at the last second.
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BEARS24


Joined: 25 Sep 2008
Posts: 5036
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMHO Today Suh was fine. Yes he is a dirty player but today I do not remember seeing anything terrible from him. I feel like him and Cutler have a mutual respect on the field, to an extent...

But fairley is a [inappropriate/removed], levy too and I would like to finish by saying I love Kyle Long... I have never been happier to be wrong about a guy...
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ForteOz


Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Posts: 511
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
DaMike wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
detfan782004 wrote:
more dirtier


Hehe. Laughing

I honestly don't remember any dirty plays by Suh this game. Could anyone name any examples for me and I'll look for them when I re watch the game tomorrow?

I know Fairley had one borderline late hit that wasn't called. It was the one where Long looked like he was about to do a running jump on Fairley on the ground afterwords but stopped and stood over him.

I saw some people had issues with the Levy hit on Marshall after he had a deep catch over the middle, but you only have to remember last Thanksgiving to know it wasn't dirty. Marshall was looking like he was going to get up and run and the whistle hadn't been blown yet. Last Thanksgiving the Texans RB was tackled and popped back up and kept running for a TD and it ended up costing us the game.
I dont think anyone had an issue with the Levy hit.

Fairley hit McCown late when he spun him around and threw him to the ground.

Also the obvious one where after the play he grabbed Jay and tackled him with his body weight. That was the bad one since it was so late and he really had to fight through traffic for an extend period of time to actually be able to land on him.

Both of Tillman's were accidental and werent dirty at all.


That is my point. Thanks. Personal foul does not equal dirty


The better point is that not every dirty play gets flagged.
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ForteOz


Joined: 03 Sep 2013
Posts: 511
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BEARS24 wrote:
IMHO Today Suh was fine. Yes he is a dirty player but today I do not remember seeing anything terrible from him. I feel like him and Cutler have a mutual respect on the field, to an extent...

But fairley is a [inappropriate/removed], levy too and I would like to finish by saying I love Kyle Long... I have never been happier to be wrong about a guy...


I think it is total PR on both of their parts. What is Jay going to say 'No, actually that guy is a classless piece of trash, and scumbags like him need to be taken out of the league.'

That goes down like this 'Next on SportsCenter: Crybaby Cutler whines about quitting'
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
Posts: 860
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roadrunner wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
Timothy67 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Timothy67 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
Timothy67 wrote:
As dumb as it sounds we need a new kicker 0 for 11 is pathetic.
LMAO, he is the 3rd most accurate kicker in LEAGUE HISTORY. And has done that in SOLDIER FREAKING FIELD. He honestly has a legit argument for GOAT, and you think needs to be replaced????


Yes I do. To be honest the difference between 3rd best in history and entirely average is rather small when it comes to kickers.


On the other hand he is the worst in history for onside kicks.


You know how many teams would kill to have Robbie Gould on their roster?


Yes, teams that have had horrible kickers. I honestly would trade him for an entirely average kicker, say in the 11 to 14 range, that actually has some diversity and can kick an onside kick.

My point is you do not fall off going from a great kicker to an average kicker, from great to poor, yes its a big drop off, but not to average, the points are pretty small. On the other hand being the worst onside kicker ever basically means you have ZERO chance ever of winning in a game where you need an onside.

Its a matter of opinion.


Nonsense. Just nonsense.

So as per this site-
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/fg_perc_career.htm

Gould it 6th all time, with 2 guys having only been in for less than 2 seasons, so he is 4th with any real body of work at 86%. There are 202 listed, so average would be 101, who is Toni Fritsch, who had a career average of 70%.

So out of 100 field goals, Gould nets you about 258 points, "average" nets you 210. 48 missed points is pretty a pretty good difference, especially when we have won and lost many games by less than a TD. You may win a few onside kicks, but it is just as likely you would have won just for the simple fact of having a better kicker, if you eve get the chance to win anyway.

And if you want actual depth to the argument, it can easily be said the Gould is the best kicker of all time. In the Adjusted Accuracy he is clearly the best.

http://sbronars.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/measured-properly-bears-kicker-robbie-gould-is-most-accurate-kicker-in-nfl-history/

I'll take that over onside recoveries, which have also been a massive failure by the cover team, having had several penalties and bobbled opportunities.


"There are 202 listed, so average would be 101....."

While I agree with your contention that Gould is nowhere near average, without doing any calculations, I can tell you that it is highly unlikely Fritsch is the average. He may be the median, but median does not necessarily equate to the mean.


Fair enough, I will agree with that as there is a difference, I didn't quickly see a list of active only kickers, so I went with the large reference and showed my point in the simplest way possible. Still, the same arguments can be made, as Gould is clearly a top 3 kicker of all time, and I prefer the deeper grading of the second link I posted to show their true worth.
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Roadrunner


Joined: 20 Mar 2013
Posts: 807
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sugashane wrote:
Roadrunner wrote:
Sugashane wrote:
Timothy67 wrote:
GOGRIESE wrote:
Timothy67 wrote:
Superman(DH23) wrote:
Timothy67 wrote:
As dumb as it sounds we need a new kicker 0 for 11 is pathetic.
LMAO, he is the 3rd most accurate kicker in LEAGUE HISTORY. And has done that in SOLDIER FREAKING FIELD. He honestly has a legit argument for GOAT, and you think needs to be replaced????


Yes I do. To be honest the difference between 3rd best in history and entirely average is rather small when it comes to kickers.


On the other hand he is the worst in history for onside kicks.


You know how many teams would kill to have Robbie Gould on their roster?


Yes, teams that have had horrible kickers. I honestly would trade him for an entirely average kicker, say in the 11 to 14 range, that actually has some diversity and can kick an onside kick.

My point is you do not fall off going from a great kicker to an average kicker, from great to poor, yes its a big drop off, but not to average, the points are pretty small. On the other hand being the worst onside kicker ever basically means you have ZERO chance ever of winning in a game where you need an onside.

Its a matter of opinion.


Nonsense. Just nonsense.

So as per this site-
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/fg_perc_career.htm

Gould it 6th all time, with 2 guys having only been in for less than 2 seasons, so he is 4th with any real body of work at 86%. There are 202 listed, so average would be 101, who is Toni Fritsch, who had a career average of 70%.

So out of 100 field goals, Gould nets you about 258 points, "average" nets you 210. 48 missed points is pretty a pretty good difference, especially when we have won and lost many games by less than a TD. You may win a few onside kicks, but it is just as likely you would have won just for the simple fact of having a better kicker, if you eve get the chance to win anyway.

And if you want actual depth to the argument, it can easily be said the Gould is the best kicker of all time. In the Adjusted Accuracy he is clearly the best.

http://sbronars.wordpress.com/2012/10/14/measured-properly-bears-kicker-robbie-gould-is-most-accurate-kicker-in-nfl-history/

I'll take that over onside recoveries, which have also been a massive failure by the cover team, having had several penalties and bobbled opportunities.


"There are 202 listed, so average would be 101....."

While I agree with your contention that Gould is nowhere near average, without doing any calculations, I can tell you that it is highly unlikely Fritsch is the average. He may be the median, but median does not necessarily equate to the mean.


Fair enough, I will agree with that as there is a difference, I didn't quickly see a list of active only kickers, so I went with the large reference and showed my point in the simplest way possible. Still, the same arguments can be made, as Gould is clearly a top 3 kicker of all time, and I prefer the deeper grading of the second link I posted to show their true worth.


I totally agree with you about Gould and think you made a good case for your position. Wink

Also, while we are on the topic of stats....such a small sample, particularly with such a low probability of a successful outcome, does not seem to make a good case for judging a kicker solely on onside kick success or failure.


Last edited by Roadrunner on Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Athelite


Joined: 01 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy damn Tillman got destroyed today. No big contract for you sir.
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Roadrunner


Joined: 20 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athelite wrote:
Holy damn Tillman got destroyed today. No big contract for you sir.


No big contract is warranted for ANY corner in our system. One way or the other, Peanut did not have a huge payday coming next year. At least not in Chicago.
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pigsooie5


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Superman(DH23) wrote:
pigsooie5 wrote:
I'm truly starting to wonder what a different QB would look like in Trestmans system. I'm not a typical Cutler basher but he just doesn't seem to pull through in big games, and its become quite the norm for him to get injured, I mean every week it's something different. He cannot be counted on, it's that simple.
You do realize you completely contradict yourself in this post right.

I'm not bashing Cutler, I'm making honest observations, with a legitament question as to how a different style QB would do in Trestmans system regardless of how big a Cutler fan I am.
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Sugashane


Joined: 06 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roadrunner wrote:


I totally agree with you about Gould and think you made a good case for your position. Wink

Also, while we are on the topic of stats....such a small sample, particularly with such a low probability of a successful outcome, does not seem to make a good case for judging a kicker solely on onside kick success or failure.


We are in total agreement then, sir. Laughing
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DetroitPride26


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good game Bears! Glad we beat you again!
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