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Jarvis Jones benched
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AlanFanecaFan


Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't worry about the lack of productivity til next year. Way too early.

The more concerning aspect is that this the 2nd young player that was benched and replaced by a marginal talent after only a short period of time.

2 very hard positions to boot...short sighted and stupid.
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanFanecaFan wrote:
The more concerning aspect is that this the 2nd young player that was benched and replaced by a marginal talent after only a short period of time.

2 very hard positions to boot...short sighted and stupid.


Agreed....and what makes it worse are the players that replaced them.

Kelvin Beachum and Jason Worlids.

Beachum is a nice depth, but nothing Ive seen of him is better than Adams, and at least Adams has more upside as an LT. I dont think Adams is a long term fit at LT, but they shouldnt have given up on him so easily.

And Worlids is a 4th year player that has not clearly outplayed Jones and has far far FAR less upside. However, I dont have any issue with them splitting time since Jones is still learning.

If there is one thing I really dont like about Tomlin, its that players seem to go into the doghouse too easily. Some reasons I get....some are just annoying (like benching Adams for his game against Jared Allen, even though the coaches were just as much to blame).
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steelcurtain29


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gatoradus wrote:
Is anyone really surprised?

Kethnaab is right, Jarvis Jones never had speed to begin with. He NEVER showed the explosiveness at Georgia- those quick plays are solely based on the scheme itself, Jarvis Jones is allowed to make plays because of the scheme they ran.

It won't be long until Steelers FO realize Le'Veon Bell is having same problem.


Wait, what? Eh? Jones has no explosiveness? What games did you watch?
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Dcash4


Joined: 21 Apr 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
AlanFanecaFan wrote:
The more concerning aspect is that this the 2nd young player that was benched and replaced by a marginal talent after only a short period of time.

2 very hard positions to boot...short sighted and stupid.


Agreed....and what makes it worse are the players that replaced them.

Kelvin Beachum and Jason Worlids.

Beachum is a nice depth, but nothing Ive seen of him is better than Adams, and at least Adams has more upside as an LT. I dont think Adams is a long term fit at LT, but they shouldnt have given up on him so easily.

And Worlids is a 4th year player that has not clearly outplayed Jones and has far far FAR less upside. However, I dont have any issue with them splitting time since Jones is still learning.

If there is one thing I really dont like about Tomlin, its that players seem to go into the doghouse too easily. Some reasons I get....some are just annoying (like benching Adams for his game against Jared Allen, even though the coaches were just as much to blame).


You could add Cortez into that category as well. But as much as we are in sub packages with multiple Dbacks it doesnt really make as big an impact.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:


They will not take a OLB high in the draft.


yeah, I know. We have to pray that we hit on a late-round gem in order to get a pass rush before Jones gets to C2.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
kethnaab wrote:

I could see us snapping up Khalil Mack in the 2nd. I like Kyle Van Noy but I'm not sure we go after him.


Honestly, i don't think Mack makes it out of the first round


i'm counting on his small school status to keep him in the 2nd, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if he goes earlier, especially with a good combine

The Curtain wrote:
JJ has a motor. Which is more than I can say for anyone else I've seen in our front seven this year.


Heyward has a great motor, as does Ziggy. Not that Ziggy works well as a LDE for us, but it's not his motor that is at fault.
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
I honestly must say, I think Jarvis Jones was a pick of "no other choice". I 100% believe that had New Orleans not drafted Kenny Vaccaro, even with Jarvis on the board, the Steelers would've drafted Vaccaro


I truly think you are dreaming. Absolutely dreaming. They SPRINTED to the podium to snatch up Jones, and I had to bite my tongue else I would've sworn loudly and profusely in the middle of my daughter's recital.

Ward4HOF wrote:


So now that he gets benched, everyone's coming out of the "woodwork" saying "I told ya so!"


do you need me to dig up my OLB evaluations where I said that Jones was going to be a failure as a pass rusher in a Steelers' 3-4? It's hardly me coming out of the woodworks on this one

Ward4HOF wrote:
We all need to give the dude a fair shot. If he doesn't pan out after 3 years (like Worilds), then I'll happily jump aboard the "he stinks and was a mistake" bandwagon


we can't afford to wait another 3 seasons to discover yet another 1st round failure. We can't afford another 3 seasons without a pass rush. Our window of opportunity with a healthy Big Ben cannot afford a 3-year wait.

Only in Pittsburgh are we content to wait 3 years for a first rounder to be relevant. Problem is, we're not a good team anymore, so we cannot AFFORD 3 years. That was the excuse about Ziggy, just wait, it takes awhile for rookies to learn "the system", and all other crock of BS. Yet here we are with a rookie calling the defensive signals of this supposed War and Peace defense. It's a crock.

Jones is slow, he isn't strong, and he doesn't get off blocks. That was the way he looked at Georgia, and that's how he looks now. Don't tell me that the pig might look good after we apply lipstick for 3 years.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Gatoradus wrote:
Is anyone really surprised?

Kethnaab is right, Jarvis Jones never had speed to begin with. He NEVER showed the explosiveness at Georgia- those quick plays are solely based on the scheme itself, Jarvis Jones is allowed to make plays because of the scheme they ran.

It won't be long until Steelers FO realize Le'Veon Bell is having same problem.


This is complete hogwash.

If you want to claim he isnt fast, thats fine...saying he was never explosive and just a product of the system is just downright laughable.


i'm pretty sure you laughed at me for saying the same thing before the season, and here we are, 8 full games into the season, and Jones has yet to sniff the QB. He's a guy, like Timmons, that can close the deal when the scheme gets him into the backfield unblocked. If you're hoping he can beat an NFL offensive lineman, then you're going to be sadly disappointed.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
FourThreeMafia wrote:
Gatoradus wrote:
Is anyone really surprised?

Kethnaab is right, Jarvis Jones never had speed to begin with. He NEVER showed the explosiveness at Georgia- those quick plays are solely based on the scheme itself, Jarvis Jones is allowed to make plays because of the scheme they ran.

It won't be long until Steelers FO realize Le'Veon Bell is having same problem.


This is complete hogwash.

If you want to claim he isnt fast, thats fine...saying he was never explosive and just a product of the system is just downright laughable.


i'm pretty sure you laughed at me for saying the same thing before the season, and here we are, 8 full games into the season, and Jones has yet to sniff the QB. He's a guy, like Timmons, that can close the deal when the scheme gets him into the backfield unblocked. If you're hoping he can beat an NFL offensive lineman, then you're going to be sadly disappointed.


I remember you hated on Dontari Poe before he was drafted and then you were acting like you were right about him last season when he struggled. How's that working out for ya?

Its been 7 games. Unlike you, I actually give players a chance...even ones I wasnt high on. It would be one thing if it were 2 years in...but 7 games, in a defense thats known to be quite complicated and hard for players to pick up immediately?

Maybe he wont be good. However, 7 games in, I'm not giving up on him, especially since I dont see alot of the complaints you and others have about him. I realize he has his shortcomings, but Ive seen enough to make me very optimistic about him in the future.

If you arent high on him...thats up to you, but youve continuously tried to convince others on here thats he isnt good from the moment we drafted him, so excuse me if I take your feelings about him with a grain of salt.

And that doesnt mean I am saying all of your worries about him are unreasonable...not at all....it means that you act like you'd prefer him to suck just so you can say "I told ya so..."
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FourThreeMafia wrote:
I remember you hated on Dontari Poe before he was drafted and then you were acting like you were right about him last season when he struggled. How's that working out for ya?


KC changed the way their DL operates, Poe dropped something like 30 lbs, and bam. He's doing great.

FourThreeMafia wrote:
Its been 7 games. Unlike you, I actually give players a chance...even ones I wasnt high on. It would be one thing if it were 2 years in...but 7 games, in a defense thats known to be quite complicated and hard for players to pick up immediately?

Maybe he wont be good. However, 7 games in, I'm not giving up on him, especially since I dont see alot of the complaints you and others have about him. I realize he has his shortcomings, but Ive seen enough to make me very optimistic about him in the future.

If you arent high on him...thats up to you, but youve continuously tried to convince others on here thats he isnt good from the moment we drafted him, so excuse me if I take your feelings about him with a grain of salt.

And that doesnt mean I am saying all of your worries about him are unreasonable...not at all....it means that you act like you'd prefer him to suck just so you can say "I told ya so..."


I tried to give him a chance. I see him as a guy who would play well inside for us or well in a 4-3 OLB type of position. He's not a pass rusher from the edge is all. I definitely don't want him to suck, I even made that (horrible) sig picture with him on there, but he simply isn't a pass rusher. Timmons isn't either, but he's a beast inside. Move him to OLB, and he disappears. Perhaps that's the same way with Jones? Jones shows good instincts and understanding of the position, despite some issues with overpursuit (rather they be too aggressive than too passive, so this is no biggie).
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chrisororke


Joined: 14 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
3rivers wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
I hated the pick.

Had to keep from swearing at my (then) 11-year old daughter's clarinet recital. I tried drinking the Kool-Aid, but unfortunately, what we're seeing now is exactly what we saw in Georgia.


Who did you want instead? If worilds leaves , could you see Mack or KVN3 being drafted by the steelers?


well, I know I'm going to throw something at a wall when we pass on Anthony Barr

I could see us snapping up Khalil Mack in the 2nd. I like Kyle Van Noy but I'm not sure we go after him.


Barr I am not sold on him in OUR DEFENSE. He makes plays at this level bc of his athleticism. Everyone is athletic at the next level. I would put him as a 4-3 OLB and those guys can't handle the job of a 3-4 OLB. Great for like the Bears, but not for us. I think Barr could be ahhh-hum Jason Worilds like in our defense. I think Worilds is just in the wrong system
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chrisororke


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
3rivers wrote:
kethnaab wrote:
I hated the pick.

Had to keep from swearing at my (then) 11-year old daughter's clarinet recital. I tried drinking the Kool-Aid, but unfortunately, what we're seeing now is exactly what we saw in Georgia.


Who did you want instead? If worilds leaves , could you see Mack or KVN3 being drafted by the steelers?


well, I know I'm going to throw something at a wall when we pass on Anthony Barr

I could see us snapping up Khalil Mack in the 2nd. I like Kyle Van Noy but I'm not sure we go after him.


Honestly, i don't think Mack makes it out of the first round


Agreed. Top 20 guy in all likelihood. Good pass rushers don't grow on trees and half the league runs a 3-4 instead of like two or three teams
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this jumping on Jones is ridiculous... are we watching the same players. I see mistakes but I see an awful lot of disruption. To say he hasn't sniffed the QB tells me one of three things either you haven't watched the games, you don't know what you're watching or you are trying to slant and frame an argument to meed your needs.

To say he doesn't have explosiveness is also incorrect. This player has quickness in short areas...and elusiveness in a sense is that he knows how to get off or around blocks. He's a rookie in not even his 8th game ...Has he even played 150 snaps yet?
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

People get too hung up on physical shortcomings. Ill take a guy with good instincts, high motor and just a good football player over a great athlete that plays football.


The main issue is, pass rushing at ROLB kind of is based more on athletic ability. You can get by with intelligence at a lot of positions, but above maybe all others on the field pass rushing comes down to being a freak athlete. They are probably the best athletes pound for pound on the football field.

What does the complicated defense have to do with his ability to get the edge against a LT?

He's not a bust because of six games, but right now he hasn't flashed the physical ability to do this. I think the people arguing otherwise have blinders on.

In this same vein, if there is a great pass rusher sitting there in R1 or R2, would it be particularly objectionable to anyone if the team took them? Would anyone scream bloody murder if the team moves Jones to ILB?
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisororke wrote:


Barr I am not sold on him in OUR DEFENSE. He makes plays at this level bc of his athleticism. Everyone is athletic at the next level. I would put him as a 4-3 OLB and those guys can't handle the job of a 3-4 OLB. Great for like the Bears, but not for us. I think Barr could be ahhh-hum Jason Worilds like in our defense. I think Worilds is just in the wrong system


Barr makes plays due to his athleticism because he has been a LB for less than 2 seasons.

An elite pass rusher needs at least one of these 3 things :

1. Speed/first step
2. Strength/leverage
3. Length


Barr already has 1 and 3 all over the place. #2 can be built rather easily, especially with his frame. He's Jason Taylor
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