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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 37593
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Being HC for 3 years is far from "microwave." I can understand the "process" and Rome not being built in a day. But, the problem, of course, is that other Roman empires are being built all around the NFL in MUCH less time than Garrett had in Dallas



I would love to see a list of sustainable "Romes" that were built in 3 years that took the same major overhaul.

I can think of a couple:

Colts - though they HAD talent (were 12-4? two years before) and then got a once in a decade QB prospect. **THATS NOT REPEATABLE**

49ers - They were loaded from being complete crap for 10 years. They had a bunch of top tier picks. Haurbough didn't rebuild, he just took what was there and coached it better.

Cheifs - See above

Broncos - Fox took a playoff winning roster and added the GOAT. Not a rebuild.

Bengals - That rebuild is going on like 10 years now....

Seahawks - This could be a good comparison. I honestly dont know enough about the Seahawks roster. But going off memory, they went to the playoffs his first year with a losing record. Since then they have become a power house. He has been with them 1 year longer though, I think?
----------------------------------------------------


What else am I missing? I can only see two other teams that could possibly have done a better job rebuilding that us and one of the did it with the #1 overall pick the year Andrew Luck happen to come out.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dallas Cowboys ‏@dallascowboys 3m
Sean Lee has been named NFC Defensive Player of the Month #CowboysNation



Cecil Lammey ‏@cecillammey 2m

beating up cupcakes! #Cowboys 16-1 vs teams to finish below .500 - 4-19 vs teams to finish the yr at .500 or better since Garrett full time
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Dirk Gently


Joined: 04 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

htfryar wrote:

I'm not upset as how this season has gone, because I never thought that we would be in serious contention for a Super Bowl run this season. I said before the season started that I thought we were a year away from taking that next step. My expectations were 9-7 or maybe 10-6 if we got a few breaks, a division title and maybe, just maybe a playoff win. Despite our d-line getting gang raped by an entire swarm of injury bugs, we are still on pace for all of that.

At this point in time, despite the ridiculous amount of injuries we've had to deal with, the team is right where I thought they would be this season. I am htfryar, and I believe in Garrett's process.
I did think we would be, but if you had told me that Spencer, Ratliff and Crawford were going to play a combined 20 snaps, and that Ware would miss significant playing time as well, I would've revised my estimate downward.
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The_Slamman


Joined: 07 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

htfryar wrote:
I think the team is moving in the right direction. No, it is not moving as quickly as most of us would like, but it is moving. In the draft/free agency, we have been addressing our major needs every year since Garrett took over as the HC. We have also added youth at several key positions, allowing us to move forward without some older players. Right now, our offense is a RG and reliable RB away from being top notch. Our defense needs some help along the line and will likely be addressed this coming offseason. I don't think that it is that far out there to say that Dallas is on the verge of being a contender.

I'm not upset as how this season has gone, because I never thought that we would be in serious contention for a Super Bowl run this season. I said before the season started that I thought we were a year away from taking that next step. My expectations were 9-7 or maybe 10-6 if we got a few breaks, a division title and maybe, just maybe a playoff win. Despite our d-line getting gang raped by an entire swarm of injury bugs, we are still on pace for all of that.

At this point in time, despite the ridiculous amount of injuries we've had to deal with, the team is right where I thought they would be this season. I am htfryar, and I believe in Garrett's process.


ht, I'm not telling you how you should think or how you should feel about the process. But, I don't think you fully comprehend the situation JG and JJ have created. I'm saying the "process" is highly flawed and will actually keep the cowboys out of serious contention for years to come.

Just so my point is clear, Id like for everybody to look at this website...

http://overthecap.com/teamcap.php?Team=Cowboys&Year=2015

A few points:

1. With 27 people under contract in 2015, the cowboys are already at or very near the projected cap for 2015.

2. That does NOT include the restructures thar WILL occur this offseason.

- what does that mean?

It means that WHEN Tony Romo, Sean Lee, Brandon Carr and very likely DeMarcus Ware are restructured in 2014, we will add about $9 million onto the 2015 cap (if DWare is not restructured it will be because he is cut). These restructures will put us well over the cap.

3. The top 51 salaries count against the cap. Right now, only 27 players are signed through 2015. That means an additional 24 salaries need to added to the 2015 cap.

- what does that mean?

Dallas will add 6 rookies through the draft in 2014 and 6 more in 2015. The 2015 rookies will count about $6m against the cap in 2015. The 2014 rookies will count more against the 2015 cap as they are in second year. Those 12 players will account for approximately $15 in cap money monies.

Dallas still needs about 12 more players. Given that Dallas is already about $20M over the cap, let's just 10 of the 12 will vet minimum types. That would put Dallas about $25M over the cap.

I know what many of you are thinking... $25m? pfffst. Jerry and Stephen and have gotten under the cap when they were $30M over the cap. $25M should be no problem.

4. Now, take a close look at the link provided and see what names are not on the 2015 list. 2 names should jump off the page (and a third is also a concern). Please note that we are $25M over the cap and we still need to re-sign Dez Bryant, Tyron Smith and probably let Bruce Carter walk. There's simply no way to get around Dez and Tyron counting $10-15M against the cap in 2015. That puts Dallas in the neighborhood of $40M over the cap.

So, how do you re-sign two of the best players on the team when you are already $25 over the cap? How do you trim about $40M? Restructures and releases.

- who's gone?

Demarcus Ware- about a $10M cap savings after 2014 restructure
Doug Free- about $7M saved
Brandon Carr- likely June 1st cut saves over $3M
Miles Austin- he will like be a 2014 June 1st cut. Will still save about $2M
Jason Witten- saves about $3.3M
Orlando Scandrick- saves about 3.5M
Kyle Orton- saves about 2.3
Mackenzie Burningduece- saves about 3.2M

- who restructures?

Tony Romo- Saves about $12M

That effectively shaves $47M off the cap. The net effect would probably put us $3-4M under the cap in 2015.

Well, why am I looking at 2015? Because we are talking about the process under Jason Garrett and moving in the right direction. Over the next 2 years, we will need to replace or significantly upgrade the following positions starting on defense...

2 DEs
2 DTs
1-2 OLBs
1 starting CB
1 NB


On offense...

1 RT
1 RG
1 RB
1 back up QB
1 TE

How many of those replacements are already on the roster? On defense, there's Crawford and Holloman. Not much else jumps out at me. Because of the cap situation, we CANNOT expect significant help in FA.

On offense, there's Escobar and Randle. Not much else jumps out there and again, we can't expect any help in FA.

Other than those few guys on the roster, the only player improvements we should expect will have to come through the draft. Now, when the team needs 3-4 DL, 2 OL, 2 CBs, 2 OLBs, and 1 RB over the next 2 years, how much help do you really expect from 12 rookies over the next 2 years?

How much depth will this team have when 34 of the players will be first and second year rookies and about 20-22 veteran minimum type players?

The process is seriously flawed.

This team has been built to win now (2013 & 2014). Cause come 2015, there's going to be a lot of changes. And, IMO the cowboys do not have the trenches to seriously compete either year (although I do think we make the playoffs this year and we can always hope to catch lightning in a bottle).
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htfryar


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slam, your doom and gloom predictions may very well come true. If so, you can pat yourself on the back when it happens, or have Plan pat it for you. Even if that does happen, I am not going to worry about it. Why? Because it is beyond my control. Jerry Jones bought the team and it is his right to run it as he sees fit. You don't have to like it, but you do have to live with it. Well, that or choose to follow a different team.

What most of y'all fail to realize about me is that I'm not the obsessive type, when it comes to football. For me, football is just entertainment. I get the same amount of enjoyment from watching the Cowboys play as I do from watching a good movie or reading a good book. Sure, I get disappointed when my teams lose, but I don't let it effect my daily life. Hell, I don't even half of the games live. If it is a Sunday that I have my son, I DVR the game, spend my time doing stuff with him and then watch the game when I get home from dropping him off with the succubus.

Now don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the game of football. That is why I played it in junior/senior high school and thought about trying to become a coach, when I went to college. I will always be a Cowboys and Razorbacks fan, regardless of the teams' records, who the coaches are or who the owner/AD is. Sure, I would love to see the Cowboys win another Super Bowl and the Razorbacks win the National Championship. If they don't, that's ok. I will still cheer for them just a much.

How can I be so cavalier about it? Because in the grand scheme of life, football just isn't that damn important. I might disagree with who my team picks in the draft or recruits out of high school. I might strongly disagree with play calling or clock management decisions made by my favorite teams. I might dislike a coaching change or wish my team had a real GM. Are any of those things going to effect my daily life in any way? Nope, because when it comes right down to it, I really don't give a flying fornication what my teams' records are. Whether my teams win every game or lose every game, I'm still going to wear my Cowboys or Razorbacks caps when I leave my house. I'm still going to support them and yell at the TV when they are playing. We only get to see our teams a certain number of times per year and I will enjoy every minute of every game and treat is as exactly what it is, nothing more than entertainment.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So ht, if I really understand what you are saying... it's not so much that you believe in the process of what Jason Garrett is building (cause I think you see the salary cap situation playing out over the next 2 years and it's not pretty). Rather, you really don't care if the process succeeds or not. That's cool. To each his own.
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If mediocrity is your SuperBowl then Garrett is your Lombardi.


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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Being HC for 3 years is far from "microwave." I can understand the "process" and Rome not being built in a day. But, the problem, of course, is that other Roman empires are being built all around the NFL in MUCH less time than Garrett had in Dallas



I would love to see a list of sustainable "Romes" that were built in 3 years that took the same major overhaul.

I can think of a couple:

Colts - though they HAD talent (were 12-4? two years before) and then got a once in a decade QB prospect. **THATS NOT REPEATABLE**

49ers - They were loaded from being complete crap for 10 years. They had a bunch of top tier picks. Haurbough didn't rebuild, he just took what was there and coached it better.

Cheifs - See above

Broncos - Fox took a playoff winning roster and added the GOAT. Not a rebuild.

Bengals - That rebuild is going on like 10 years now....

Seahawks - This could be a good comparison. I honestly dont know enough about the Seahawks roster. But going off memory, they went to the playoffs his first year with a losing record. Since then they have become a power house. He has been with them 1 year longer though, I think?
----------------------------------------------------


What else am I missing? I can only see two other teams that could possibly have done a better job rebuilding that us and one of the did it with the #1 overall pick the year Andrew Luck happen to come out.


Matts, what you are missing is the salary cap. See my post above. Those teams have not mortgaged future caps to become good (or in the case of the Dallas Cowboys... to maintain mediocrity). Why don't you see how ridiculous this process it? We are $30M over the 2014 cap. We'll restructure to eat from 2015 and beyond. In 2015, to sign Dez and Tyron, we will have to shave about $40M to get under the cap. This means more borrowing from future caps and releasing overpaid players. But to what end? I can tell you now... it won't be to compete for conference titles or SBs. There's too many holes on the DL and OL for that. No, all this restructuring will be done to maintain mediocrity and, with some luck, make an early exit in the playoffs. I honestly don't understand how anybody can endorse that "process." It sucks.
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If mediocrity is your SuperBowl then Garrett is your Lombardi.


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textaz03


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Location: Land of the Jersey Devil!
PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@calexmendez: Church says on KRLD it looks like Micah Pellerin coming up from practice squad,

@therealmarklane: The tandem of @hatcher97 & @georgeselvie with 12 sacks is second only to St. Louis’ Robert Quinn & Chris Long’s 15 sacks.

@KavnerDC: Harris said he's been playing through "some torn muscles in his lower ab" since St Louis. So that's the "hip" injury

@jonmachota: #Cowboys DE DeMarcus Ware on his injury: 'I'm starting to feel really good;' he'll be a game-time decision Sunday http://t.co/HmaT8uNYee
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htfryar


Joined: 14 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
So ht, if I really understand what you are saying... it's not so much that you believe in the process of what Jason Garrett is building (cause I think you see the salary cap situation playing out over the next 2 years and it's not pretty). Rather, you really don't care if the process succeeds or not. That's cool. To each his own.


I never said that at all. I think Garrett has done a good job given the resources he was given. He doesn't control the cap issues. Those are on Jerry and Stephen. I think that considering the financial handcuffs he's had to deal with since he became the full time head coach, Garrett's down a pretty damn good job. I think that going forward, he is the right man to continue dealing with those issues. I think Garrett is getting blamed for a lot of ish that isn't his fault. People can say the process isn't working. I say it is, because he's fielded a competitive team despite financial constraints that no other team, besides Washington, has had to deal with. It's not the process that's effed up, it's the Owner/GM and Stephen who are causing the financial issues. We can't do anything about that, so why worry about it? I guess you can Brick wall all you want, but in the end, it won't fix anything.

So, what I am actually saying is that I love the Dallas Cowboys. I support the team no matter what. I wish some things were different, but they aren't so I am just going to enjoy watching the team play and not worry about what I can't control.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm on my phone, so I can't look up any numbers. But trusting you did it right, I still don't see any issue whatsoever. We will cut aging vets to resign the young solid players developed under Garrett...? Is that what we have begging the team to do for 15 years?

as for the amount of people that need to be replaced, we have already replaced ~6 on off and 10 of 11 on defense sense 2010.... I think well be fine.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the coach can't get the owner to buy into the process and can't control the owners spending and handcuffing the future, the coach is nothing more than a puppet of the owner. We need a coach who will save Jerry from Jerry. Sad but true. It's not impossible but certainly requires a bold and dynamic coach. Garrett is neither. And I will never say that a coach who has one of the highest payrolls every year but can do no better than .500 is doing a damn good job. If the record doesn't match the resources, the coach is underachieving.
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If mediocrity is your SuperBowl then Garrett is your Lombardi.


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be WARE94


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i just don't think garrett is a very good NFL head coach....period.....i personally could care less about his "process" seeing as he's just not a very good coach.....like i said he's done some nice things(although it couldn't of been much worse then when phillips was around) but he's not the guy that's going to put us into consistent contention
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you understand how absurd what you just said was:

1- we need someone to protect Jerry from gaming out large contracts.
2- if current coach can't win while being saddled with crappy contracts that were signed before him, he sucks.


.... Question


we have signed 3(?) major contracts under Garrett. Romo, Carr and Lee. No e of them are bad contracts.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

be WARE94 wrote:
i just don't think garrett is a very good NFL head coach....period.....i personally could care less about his "process" seeing as he's just not a very good coach.....like i said he's done some nice things(although it couldn't of been much worse then when phillips was around) but he's not the guy that's going to put us into consistent contention


how can you be serious? Phillips might be the second worse coach we've had behind Switzer.

Phillips destroyed everything we had going.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't blame Phillips without pointing a finger at JG. JG had just as much influence on Jerry as Wade ever did.
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Northland wrote:
If mediocrity is your SuperBowl then Garrett is your Lombardi.




Last edited by The_Slamman on Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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