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My "I concede the season mock draft"
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wwhickok


Joined: 27 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I disagree highly that Evans is the only#1 capable WR in the first round. Frankly I think Watkins has more upside.
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Wardfan05


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
I disagree highly that Evans is the only#1 capable WR in the first round. Frankly I think Watkins has more upside.


I think teams are starting to view receivers as interchangeable as running backs. Think about how many receivers people mocked in the first round last year. Only two were actually drafted there. Unless you've got a Dez Bryant or a Calvin Johnson, it's just not worth the risk anymore.

Look at the top receivers lately, most are not first round picks. Guys like Randall Cobb, Wes Welker or Victor Cruz have shown that you're as likely to get a superstar later on.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are not many 6'5 225 WR in the draft that can run a 4.4.

Although Sammy Watkins would become one of the Steeler's tallest WR at 6'1 Rolling Eyes
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49729
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:

People get into this line of thought every year. Deandre Hopkins supposedly wasn't worth a 1st rounder last year on this forum. Neither was Patterson. Anyone who thought Hopkins was a reach has quickly forgotten about that line of thought. If a guy can play, he can play. Evans is likely a top 10 guy. In this scenario, the team has signed a LT in FA. Who else should they take? Another pass rusher? If someone doesn't think Evans pans out, I can understand that. Saying he doesn't fit some perceived value you should get at the pick is unrealistic.


Its really easy to name only instances that work out just to suit your point, isnt it? There are just as many, if not more instances of players that were considered reaches that didnt work out.

And by value...my point is I dont think he will be the best option for us in the top 10-15. That might change between now and the draft, but I dont think, at this point, he will be our best option in the top 10 or 15.

Too early to say anything for sure at this point, though.



Quote:
I really hope NFL teams take this view and he slides. I haven't heard an actual critique of anything.


If he slides to a later round, fine.

I dont want him in the 2nd.

And Im not going to give a full critique and assessment of every player I do and dont like in every mock draft....especially one thats done before half of the season is even finished.

Quote:
He had a bad game at first glance and people are ignoring not only his larger body of work, but his tremendous athleticism.


What is so impressive about his larger body of work?

Not a bad player, but Ive never seen a great college player either.

Quote:
And unlike most guys you say that about, he's a football player who loves to hit people. He's going to time fast, and he plays like it. His acceleration is top notch. I'm willing to bet just about any DB coach would be drooling over the chance to work with a guy that possesses his skills, instincts and intensity.


His instincts are pretty average IMO and he doesnt have great ball skills.

DB coaches gush over great athletes, until they prove they dont have the other requisite tools.

If he times well, that alone will get him drafted in the first 2 rounds, though.

I am not saying Robey doesnt have the tools...but I PERSONALLY just see another athlete playing football....not a particularly gifted football player.

Quote:
It reminds me of Woodley being a 2nd rounder because he supposedly had a poor bowl game against USC. OSU came out playing the run against Wisconsin and slept on the passing game.


I loved Woodley and nothing he did in the bowl game changed my mind. ...so I dont really see the comparison.

Quote:
If people want athleticism and playmaking in the secondary, Roby possesses both qualities.


Athleticism...okay.

Playmaking...meh. He reminds me of a less talented version of Kyle Wilson.
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Wardfan05


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
There are not many 6'5 225 WR in the draft that can run a 4.4.

Although Sammy Watkins would become one of the Steeler's tallest WR at 6'1 Rolling Eyes


I'm not disagreeing that he could go in the first, I'm just not sure that teams are viewing receivers in the first as a good return on investment. Usually unless a receiver is super special, it takes a couple of years for them to really blossom. Most teams want their first rounders playing week one.

Also, I stand corrected, three receivers went round one. I forgot about Patterson to the Vikes.
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chrisororke


Joined: 14 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roby is the best CB of the class and will be a top 15 pick guaranteed.

Evans is like a Keyshawn Johsnon. Question his speed big time. I like a lot of other WRs a lot more

Hood can easily be replaced with someone in the UDFA route or the worst UFA DL. He brings NOTHING to the table
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 7099
Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisororke wrote:
Roby is the best CB of the class and will be a top 15 pick guaranteed.

Evans is like a Keyshawn Johsnon. Question his speed big time. I like a lot of other WRs a lot more

Hood can easily be replaced with someone in the UDFA route or the worst UFA DL. He brings NOTHING to the table


I have to hold off on Evans need more observation...
My initial impressions which are limited are that his body type can be likened to Brandon Marshall to Anquan Boldin.

I was far more impressed by some of the improvement I saw from Odell Beckham in watching LSU @ Miss St. He has good strong hands, uses them and is aggressive to the ball. He is an aggressive player/athlete, meaning he doesn't wait for the game or ball to come to him, he makes it happen and goes and gets it.
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xLeBron


Joined: 08 May 2013
Posts: 124
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if we get Avery Patterson, im getting the jersey immediately
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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Location: Las Vegas
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

xLeBron wrote:
if we get Avery Patterson, im getting the jersey immediately


Im on board with Patterson, have always liked him but do see him more as a very good nickel corner and then whatever he does from there is bonus. If we can somehow snag him 4th or 5th id like the pick very much.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
I disagree highly that Evans is the only#1 capable WR in the first round. Frankly I think Watkins has more upside.


I agree wholeheartedly.

I'd love a big fast target ala Jones, Jackson, or Marshall and maybe Evans becomes something along those lines....could much more easily see him becoming Reggie Williams like tho.

If the character stuff checks out, I'm taking Watkins 100/100 over every receiver in this class. In fact the only guy I'd even debate with him as an impact receiver is Ebron. I think the gap between Watkins and every other prospect at the WR spot is as big a gap as there is at any position this season outside of maybe FS.

If we end up in that top 10ish range and either are on the board that's who I'm pulling for. Going back to comps, Watkins is the second coming of Reggie Wayne, just a more athletic, explosive version of him.
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JustPlainNasty


Joined: 11 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

treat88 wrote:
wwhickok wrote:
I disagree highly that Evans is the only#1 capable WR in the first round. Frankly I think Watkins has more upside.


I agree wholeheartedly.

I'd love a big fast target ala Jones, Jackson, or Marshall and maybe Evans becomes something along those lines....could much more easily see him becoming Reggie Williams like tho.

If the character stuff checks out, I'm taking Watkins 100/100 over every receiver in this class. In fact the only guy I'd even debate with him as an impact receiver is Ebron. I think the gap between Watkins and every other prospect at the WR spot is as big a gap as there is at any position this season outside of maybe FS.

If we end up in that top 10ish range and either are on the board that's who I'm pulling for. Going back to comps, Watkins is the second coming of Reggie Wayne, just a more athletic, explosive version of him.


I like Watkins but not sure I'd go as far..Coming into the season I had him top 15 or 16 and the #1 WR. But I'd be pretty reluctant to anoint him anything like Reggie Wayne. I have games to watch to look for the improvements I need to see, so I'll get back when I check them out in the near future.

As I said above I was really impressed with what I saw from Beckham, not saying he is top 15 necessarily but the things I saw make for a very good pro.

Conversely I was nowhere near as high or as sure about Marquise Lee coming into the season pre-injury and despite thinking of him as a potential late 1st rounder, it was with concern of the boom or bust type because of some overlooked deficiencies in his game up to that point.

Jordan Matthews doesn't have a good QB throwing to him but didn't do as much as I wouldve liked to see, he will be in play but the arrow was somewhat down after this past weeks performance.

Just to mention a few.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

What is so impressive about his larger body of work?


He was widely considered the best CB in the nation last year. You dismiss him as an athlete playing football, but most people praise his instincts and ability to play the ball. He lays the wood, and is aggressive against the run. That's part of the reason he had a bad day against a Wisconsin team everyone thought would come out pounding the run.

Quote:

I loved Woodley and nothing he did in the bowl game changed my mind. ...so I dont really see the comparison.


The personal opinion you had of him wasn't really the point. A lot of people were down on him after that game, and it negatively impacted his draft stock despite USC basically designing their offense to neutralize him.

Quote:

Playmaking...meh. He reminds me of a less talented version of Kyle Wilson.


Kyle Wilson was no where near as athletic as Roby.

Quote:

I'm not disagreeing that he could go in the first, I'm just not sure that teams are viewing receivers in the first as a good return on investment. Usually unless a receiver is super special, it takes a couple of years for them to really blossom. Most teams want their first rounders playing week one.


I disagree with this logic. A lot of the WR's drafted go to teams with poor QB's, first. It's harder for them to make an impact. I'm not sold on Evans, and I understand some hesitance about him as a player. I don't see what's different about the development of a WR compared to OL or DL in the NFL. Outside LB's and RB's, most positions have a transition that can take time. Even the 'special' WR's aren't dominant year 1 for the most part. Johnson had a good, but not great rookie season.

This draft doesn't have an AJ Green/Julio Jones/CJ type receiver I see right now. I think Evans reminds me most of Plaxico. I think that is his ceiling, which wouldn't be terrible. The Steelers don't need a dominant #1, but they could use that sort of physical presence to compliment AB.

Quote:
Its really easy to name only instances that work out just to suit your point, isnt it? There are just as many, if not more instances of players that were considered reaches that didnt work out.


It isn't just one instance. It happens every year in the 1st round, though I think Evans is going to be considered one of the top 2 WR's in this class so I don't think he'll be viewed as a reach if some team grabs him early.

The point about value is that if you like the player and have him ranked highly on your board, it's worth taking him regardless of the perceived value. I don't like the idea that you should play these value games. If the guy can come in and help your team at the position, and you like his ability, that's all that matters.
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1BackInBlackFan


Joined: 29 Mar 2010
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Location: Wildcard push, PA
PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustPlainNasty wrote:
treat88 wrote:
wwhickok wrote:
I disagree highly that Evans is the only#1 capable WR in the first round. Frankly I think Watkins has more upside.


I agree wholeheartedly.

I'd love a big fast target ala Jones, Jackson, or Marshall and maybe Evans becomes something along those lines....could much more easily see him becoming Reggie Williams like tho.

If the character stuff checks out, I'm taking Watkins 100/100 over every receiver in this class. In fact the only guy I'd even debate with him as an impact receiver is Ebron. I think the gap between Watkins and every other prospect at the WR spot is as big a gap as there is at any position this season outside of maybe FS.

If we end up in that top 10ish range and either are on the board that's who I'm pulling for. Going back to comps, Watkins is the second coming of Reggie Wayne, just a more athletic, explosive version of him.


I like Watkins but not sure I'd go as far..Coming into the season I had him top 15 or 16 and the #1 WR. But I'd be pretty reluctant to anoint him anything like Reggie Wayne. I have games to watch to look for the improvements I need to see, so I'll get back when I check them out in the near future.

As I said above I was really impressed with what I saw from Beckham, not saying he is top 15 necessarily but the things I saw make for a very good pro.

Conversely I was nowhere near as high or as sure about Marquise Lee coming into the season pre-injury and despite thinking of him as a potential late 1st rounder, it was with concern of the boom or bust type because of some overlooked deficiencies in his game up to that point.

Jordan Matthews doesn't have a good QB throwing to him but didn't do as much as I wouldve liked to see, he will be in play but the arrow was somewhat down after this past weeks performance.

Just to mention a few.


I like Beckham but I don't want the Steelers to go after yet another WR with the size of Brown, Sanders, and Wheaton.
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Dook


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They don't have to extend a player to clear up cap space. In the past few years they've just been giving them up front money that is then spread out over the remaining years of the contract.

We don't have $8m in cap space next year, we're $6m in the hole. And draft picks usually cost about $7m total but since we'll be picking so much higher it's going to be about double that and add to that the cost of signing our own guys is probably going to be about $6m not counting Sanders, Clark, Hood, or Keisel.

Where are we going to get the money to sign OT Brandon Albert?

Love WR Mike Evans in the 1st.

Like CB Roby in the 2nd if he's there but I think the need for OT is absolutely a 1st or 2nd round need. We can't expect the guys we have to just get better.

DT McCullers is an interesting guy. At 6' 6" and 360 lbs he's really too tall to play NT for us but because he's also 360 lbs he's just a massive presence. I would be okay with taking him in the 3rd round compensatory pick if he falls that far and then move McClendon over to LDE to play in Hoods spot.

Okay with TE Grimble but I think he's a 5th round guy and even if he's not there in the 5th there should be other TE's of the same value. I like Kaneakua Friel down there.

ILB Borland is short but in the 6th round it's an okay pick. Prefer ILB Dan Fox if he's there.
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CKSteeler


Joined: 17 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

We don't have $8m in cap space next year, we're $6m in the hole. And draft picks usually cost about $7m total but since we'll be picking so much higher it's going to be about double that and add to that the cost of signing our own guys is probably going to be about $6m not counting Sanders, Clark, Hood, or Keisel.


For one, it does not cost $7m to sign the draft class. Even picking high, it wouldn't cost that much. Second, that's the point of the extensions - to free cap space. Ben's hit next year is over $18m, and an extension could significantly reduce that number back down to what it has been.
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