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Garrett and Co. - Defend them
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plan9misfit


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
If your premise is true, then why was there so little turn over in the 4 years Phillips was here?


Bad contract extensions and worthless trades that Jerry hadn't given up on yet. Not mention the fact that Parcells' guys (save Ware because he was a Jerry selection) were still young and playing at a high level. Now? They're old, barely playing at all (or not at all), and are finishing up many of their albatross deals.

Until the next round of restructures occurs in February.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
If your premise is true, then why was there so little turn over in the 4 years Phillips was here?

when its all said and done, Garrett will have restocked the roster and the only 3 players who will be still around are Romo, witten and ware.


So you are now on the train to get rid of frenchy?!

EXCELLENT! The Conversion continues! Tune in next time to see who next follows the right path!
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
If your premise is true, then why was there so little turn over in the 4 years Phillips was here?

when its all said and done, Garrett will have restocked the roster and the only 3 players who will be still around are Romo, witten and ware.


Why was there so little turnover in the 4 years Phillips was here? Easy answer. Most of those guys were still under their rookie contracts, very recent acquisitions, or just signed extension in 2007 and the Dallas Cowboys were in great shape under the salary cap under Bill Parcells. Really, that is how the football team should be run.

Romo- Signed extension in 2007
Barber- under rookie contract in 2007
Jones- Under rookie contract in 2007
Austin- Under rookie contract in 2007
Owens- recent acquisition via FA in 2006
Glenn-
Crayton- Under rookie contract in 2007
Witten- Signed 6 year contract in 2006
Adams- Signed a 5 year contract in 2003
Colombo- Signed FA in 2006
Gurode- Signed 6 year contract in 2007
Kosier- Signed 5 FA contract in 2006
Pettite- under Rookie contract
Bowen- under rookie contract
Canty- under Rookie contract
Ratliff- under rookie contract
Hatcher- under rookie contract
Spears- under Rookie contract
Ayodele-trade in 06
James- under rookie contract
Ware- under rookie contract
Carpenter- under rookie contract
Newman- under rookie contract
Henery- FA contract in 06
Williams- under Rookie contract
Davis- FA in 07

There were not a lot of high price FAs (TO was really the only high price FA). There was a lot of production from players still on their rookie deal. And because the Boys were in good shape under the cap, the only player the Boys lost that they probably wanted to keep was Canty. The fact that many of those players are still our better players all these years later really is quite impressive work by BP.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hypothetically speaking, if Redball was the defacto Coach...why not begin the process of building the team the way he wanted it? He, based on what some in the brain trust here are suggesting, would have had enough sway to not only build the team he wants - but also enjoy the benefit of not suffering any repercussions for down years.

It would then seem logical, if not wise, to not bother and do restructures nor sign these lofty contracts but instead play it safe. Build the core, and then have the keys to the kingdom the second it's official to do as one would please.
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baixis wrote:

Yeah, we've been down this road before, and we're gonna have to agree to disagree

And thats totally cool. People don't always have to agree. I disagree with many posts on here, and many disagree with me as well. That is the fun in posting back and forth. It's no fun if everyone always agrees with each other, and we'd not have even half of the posts up here as we do Smile
Quote:

, because it DOES matter

Every 43 is not the same. Every 34 is not the same. It's only a front alignment. But the schematics behind each alignment will greatly vary from scheme to scheme.

Por ejemplo - Bill Parcells' 3-4 front was predicated on bending and not breaking, with little attacking. Wade's 3-4 was all about attacking relentlessly. While the usual conception of a 3-4 front is aggressiveness, that isn't always the case. The real meat and potatoes of that alignment is the ability to conceal who your fourth rusher will be - four man rush is a base rush, five or more is a blitz. When you run 4 downlinemen, offenses know all 4 base rushers. In 3-4, you can make an offense have to guess which of those 4 linebackers are rushing and hopefully cause confusion.

Meanwhile, a 4-3 run by Kiffin is very laid back - you hold your ground and attack anyone entering your assigned portion of the field. Up front, blitzing is usually only used in conjunction with wider zones from the secondary and remaining 'backers. While in, say, Steve Spagnuolo's 4-3 front, he utilizes a wide array of twists and stunts to cause confusion and attack. He suppliments this method of attack by rushing a safety or linebacker, to attack the small gap caused by the stunt or twist. Very aggressive. In the backfield, he tends to run a single high safety and everyone else plays tight man coverages. A total clash in style, regardless of the 43 front alignment.

Quote:
. And unless you can provide some serious credentials for your opinions,

Actually, it is not opinion, but fact that all 34s are not the same, and that not all 43 fronts are the same. It is a preference in front alignment, not the system being run. 43 is not a system, it's an alignment only. It's also fact that Carrol's defense is not a direct 43 or 34 defense. It is a hybrid front, with a lot of flexing and movement to disguise blitzes and coverages. If you don't believe me, ask the Seahawk fans over on their forum.

But if you still want credentions:

Played NCAA ball for Notre Dame from 1990 to 1993 before shredding my knee. Spent one year as an assistant player-coach for my respective position, offensive line.

Won a high school football city championship in 1988 while playing left tackle for the John Adams Spartans. Played four seasons there, with my initial freshman year spent at nose tackle before being moved back to offensive line, where I played the majority of my pop warner years.

I have coached my former High School team since their 2001 season. First as an offensive coach, then as head coach starting in 2003. A team which I still coach today, 10 years after taking over.

I study offenses and defenses as a hobby - not the players, not the good plays and high light reels, but the Xs and Os. While I have not done it as often since getting married a couple of years ago, I did it for long enough to spot things quickly on the television even though the camera only fixates on the QB.

Oh, and been a football fan since 1982. A cowboys fan since 1983.

Quote:
not only as a condescending know-it-all,

I know I can come off as such, so I don't take offense to this. I have a very type A personality, always outspoken and sharing what I know, even to the aggrevation of others. Thats why I apologized at the end of my initial post and explained I really did not intend to sound that way.
Quote:

but as one that actually knows less than most on this site.

You know, even those who always disagree with my opinions, probably wouldn't say this about me. In fact, it's those who often disagree with me, who might contend just the opposite of this with you. Anyone who's debated opinion with me definitely knows I know my stuff. I don't think anyone on here would say I don't know my stuff, even if they don't like or don't agree with what I say.

Quote:
You tend to give big, long, drawn out explanations of stuff, but half the stuff I've read from you sounds plain wrong, made up, or embellished.

I assure you, my big, long, drawn out posts are always because I know so much and wish to share it. My football FAQs and posts on schematics and Xs and Os always go over well because of how much knowledge I have to share on those subjects. I just have so much to say on some things and am also a published author (although in the subject of personality psychology, my recent return-to-college minor) - so I can tend to go on and on over things I've a lot to say about. It's not intended to insult or upset anyone, and certainly isn't made up nonsense. Sorry if you feel slighted by it.
Quote:
So unless you are some kind of coaching guru, and can prove it - yeah, you might want to slow your roll some. Your first paragraph - yeah, sounds very novice to me.


Guru? Naw. But I am a coach, with a lot of experience, and a lot of knowledge. Knowledge many people actually appreciate me sharing. You don't have to agree, you can post your opinions to the contrary of mine, but please do not insult my experience or abilities as a coach. Football has been my life and is currently one of two careers I am balancing - besides husband and father, that is - so insulting my abilities, experience or knowledge is a slap in the face and an insult to me personally.

I am pretty sure everyone on this forum and every other forum could tell you with certainty that every 43 front does not run the same system. That not every 43 alignment is the same. And that, just like with offenses, systems vary greatly. Just because two teams utilize a typical Strong I formation in their offense would not, at all, imply that both teams use the same system. Just the same formation. This very same concept works for defense.
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Ace5


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Hypothetically speaking, if Redball was the defacto Coach...why not begin the process of building the team the way he wanted it? He, based on what some in the brain trust here are suggesting, would have had enough sway to not only build the team he wants - but also enjoy the benefit of not suffering any repercussions for down years.

It would then seem logical, if not wise, to not bother and do restructures nor sign these lofty contracts but instead play it safe. Build the core, and then have the keys to the kingdom the second it's official to do as one would please.



The easiest reason is media backlash. If it became patently obvious that Wade was a lame duck placeholder type, then the whole organization would have been portrayed in an incredibly negative light. Free agents might think twice before coming here, new asisstant coaches might take other job offerings, etc etc. Jerry might be tits on a bull as a GM but he's straight up tits bananas at marketing, propaganda, image and business.
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Hypothetically speaking, if Redball was the defacto Coach...why not begin the process of building the team the way he wanted it? He, based on what some in the brain trust here are suggesting, would have had enough sway to not only build the team he wants - but also enjoy the benefit of not suffering any repercussions for down years.

It would then seem logical, if not wise, to not bother and do restructures nor sign these lofty contracts but instead play it safe. Build the core, and then have the keys to the kingdom the second it's official to do as one would please.


Pretty sure we did begin building how he wanted from the day we selected Felix Jones. He pushed for Jones over Mendenhall and Johnson (as evidenced on film during our last Hard Knocks appearance).

From there, we began shifting away from a power/man-up offensive line and moving towards a more zone oriented, pull-heavy, quick jump offensive line. We stopped searching for possession/short yard beasts at receiver, and began bringing in more vertical oriented and YAC oriented receivers. Even Romo's total way of playing the game has shifted from that gunslinger scrambling about for no reason, to the more tamed pocket passer type.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ace5 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Hypothetically speaking, if Redball was the defacto Coach...why not begin the process of building the team the way he wanted it? He, based on what some in the brain trust here are suggesting, would have had enough sway to not only build the team he wants - but also enjoy the benefit of not suffering any repercussions for down years.

It would then seem logical, if not wise, to not bother and do restructures nor sign these lofty contracts but instead play it safe. Build the core, and then have the keys to the kingdom the second it's official to do as one would please.



The easiest reason is media backlash. If it became patently obvious that Wade was a lame duck placeholder type, then the whole organization would have been portrayed in an incredibly negative light. Free agents might think twice before coming here, new asisstant coaches might take other job offerings, etc etc. Jerry might be tits on a bull as a GM but he's straight up tits bananas at marketing, propaganda, image and business.


Would there be a backlash, though? Could we honestly be mad if Wade and Jerry had come out and said, "in order to build a sustained future success, we are going to take some hits now. We are not going to sign bad contracts. But we will be better for it."

And D94W. I agree he absolutely had influence in terms as to who he wanted, much like how Cally has influence in terms of who he wants (as evident by Nicks not being here). But that's not really building long term. Selecting players here and there neglects the contractual side of things.
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Ace5 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Hypothetically speaking, if Redball was the defacto Coach...why not begin the process of building the team the way he wanted it? He, based on what some in the brain trust here are suggesting, would have had enough sway to not only build the team he wants - but also enjoy the benefit of not suffering any repercussions for down years.

It would then seem logical, if not wise, to not bother and do restructures nor sign these lofty contracts but instead play it safe. Build the core, and then have the keys to the kingdom the second it's official to do as one would please.



The easiest reason is media backlash. If it became patently obvious that Wade was a lame duck placeholder type, then the whole organization would have been portrayed in an incredibly negative light. Free agents might think twice before coming here, new asisstant coaches might take other job offerings, etc etc. Jerry might be tits on a bull as a GM but he's straight up tits bananas at marketing, propaganda, image and business.


Would there be a backlash, though? Could we honestly be mad if Wade and Jerry had come out and said, "in order to build a sustained future success, we are going to take some hits now. We are not going to sign bad contracts. But we will be better for it."

And D94W. I agree he absolutely had influence in terms as to who he wanted, much like how Cally has influence in terms of who he wants (as evident by Nicks not being here). But that's not really building long term. Selecting players here and there neglects the contractual side of things.


There will be backlash regarding anything Jerry does. It's Jerry Jones and the most popular franchise in all of sports. The backlash will always be great no matter what decisions he makes. He trades up for Dez Bryant and he's an insane madman. He hires Bill Parcells and he's making a joke of the NFL. He trades back to get Fredrick and he has no idea what he's doing. Etc etc blah blah blah et al...

Jerry might not always get it right. But he's brought in, supported, and managed some guys who practically beg him to speak at their HoF ceremony and keep in touch with him long after they are gone from here. He's obviously doing' something right now and then. But because he's so high profile, because the team he owns is so high profile, no matter what he does, he's going to be the new face on the dart board. Anyone who's worked high profile gigs or done anything where they were in such a heavy spotlight will be able to tell ya'll - heavy is the head that wears the crown.

Not really directed at you, TO7 Smile Just a bit of a rambling on the subject
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Baixis


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dallas94Ware wrote:
Baixis wrote:

Yeah, we've been down this road before, and we're gonna have to agree to disagree

And thats totally cool. People don't always have to agree. I disagree with many posts on here, and many disagree with me as well. That is the fun in posting back and forth. It's no fun if everyone always agrees with each other, and we'd not have even half of the posts up here as we do Smile
Quote:

, because it DOES matter

Every 43 is not the same. Every 34 is not the same. It's only a front alignment. But the schematics behind each alignment will greatly vary from scheme to scheme.

Por ejemplo - Bill Parcells' 3-4 front was predicated on bending and not breaking, with little attacking. Wade's 3-4 was all about attacking relentlessly. While the usual conception of a 3-4 front is aggressiveness, that isn't always the case. The real meat and potatoes of that alignment is the ability to conceal who your fourth rusher will be - four man rush is a base rush, five or more is a blitz. When you run 4 downlinemen, offenses know all 4 base rushers. In 3-4, you can make an offense have to guess which of those 4 linebackers are rushing and hopefully cause confusion.

Meanwhile, a 4-3 run by Kiffin is very laid back - you hold your ground and attack anyone entering your assigned portion of the field. Up front, blitzing is usually only used in conjunction with wider zones from the secondary and remaining 'backers. While in, say, Steve Spagnuolo's 4-3 front, he utilizes a wide array of twists and stunts to cause confusion and attack. He suppliments this method of attack by rushing a safety or linebacker, to attack the small gap caused by the stunt or twist. Very aggressive. In the backfield, he tends to run a single high safety and everyone else plays tight man coverages. A total clash in style, regardless of the 43 front alignment.

Quote:
. And unless you can provide some serious credentials for your opinions,

Actually, it is not opinion, but fact that all 34s are not the same, and that not all 43 fronts are the same. It is a preference in front alignment, not the system being run. 43 is not a system, it's an alignment only. It's also fact that Carrol's defense is not a direct 43 or 34 defense. It is a hybrid front, with a lot of flexing and movement to disguise blitzes and coverages. If you don't believe me, ask the Seahawk fans over on their forum.

But if you still want credentions:

Played NCAA ball for Notre Dame from 1990 to 1993 before shredding my knee. Spent one year as an assistant player-coach for my respective position, offensive line.

Won a high school football city championship in 1988 while playing left tackle for the John Adams Spartans. Played four seasons there, with my initial freshman year spent at nose tackle before being moved back to offensive line, where I played the majority of my pop warner years.

I have coached my former High School team since their 2001 season. First as an offensive coach, then as head coach starting in 2003. A team which I still coach today, 10 years after taking over.

I study offenses and defenses as a hobby - not the players, not the good plays and high light reels, but the Xs and Os. While I have not done it as often since getting married a couple of years ago, I did it for long enough to spot things quickly on the television even though the camera only fixates on the QB.

Oh, and been a football fan since 1982. A cowboys fan since 1983.

Quote:
not only as a condescending know-it-all,

I know I can come off as such, so I don't take offense to this. I have a very type A personality, always outspoken and sharing what I know, even to the aggrevation of others. Thats why I apologized at the end of my initial post and explained I really did not intend to sound that way.
Quote:

but as one that actually knows less than most on this site.

You know, even those who always disagree with my opinions, probably wouldn't say this about me. In fact, it's those who often disagree with me, who might contend just the opposite of this with you. Anyone who's debated opinion with me definitely knows I know my stuff. I don't think anyone on here would say I don't know my stuff, even if they don't like or don't agree with what I say.

Quote:
You tend to give big, long, drawn out explanations of stuff, but half the stuff I've read from you sounds plain wrong, made up, or embellished.

I assure you, my big, long, drawn out posts are always because I know so much and wish to share it. My football FAQs and posts on schematics and Xs and Os always go over well because of how much knowledge I have to share on those subjects. I just have so much to say on some things and am also a published author (although in the subject of personality psychology, my recent return-to-college minor) - so I can tend to go on and on over things I've a lot to say about. It's not intended to insult or upset anyone, and certainly isn't made up nonsense. Sorry if you feel slighted by it.
Quote:
So unless you are some kind of coaching guru, and can prove it - yeah, you might want to slow your roll some. Your first paragraph - yeah, sounds very novice to me.


Guru? Naw. But I am a coach, with a lot of experience, and a lot of knowledge. Knowledge many people actually appreciate me sharing. You don't have to agree, you can post your opinions to the contrary of mine, but please do not insult my experience or abilities as a coach. Football has been my life and is currently one of two careers I am balancing - besides husband and father, that is - so insulting my abilities, experience or knowledge is a slap in the face and an insult to me personally.

I am pretty sure everyone on this forum and every other forum could tell you with certainty that every 43 front does not run the same system. That not every 43 alignment is the same. And that, just like with offenses, systems vary greatly. Just because two teams utilize a typical Strong I formation in their offense would not, at all, imply that both teams use the same system. Just the same formation. This very same concept works for defense.


First and foremost, I am going to address what you said about insulting you. I did no such thing! Please don't even go there when you know dang well I didn't! I QUESTIONED your KNOWLEDGE, but did NOT INSULT your experience or abilities - not sure I even mentioned those things. So get off the 'insulting' whine. Stick to the topics.

Second, it DOES sound like you have more knowledge and experience than most, and while nothing you said is technically PROOF, I will choose to accept it and give you your due. I myself played CB, FS, and WR in high school, but not in college (went to the Marines!). And I do not coach today because I have teen-agers and bills (though coaching defense or being an NFL scout would be my dream job), but I do study the game more than most for sure. What you said about all the different alignments has its truths, but that still doesn't mean that there is no difference between a 3-4 defense and a 4-3 defense, and saying that still sounds very novice. Just because a defense can go back and forth between their alignments, doesn't mean they are all interchangeable! You don't see Kiffin put his players into the same alignments that LeBeau uses, and definitely don't see the vice versa (it may happen a FEW plays a year, but not something common enough to even note)! You also don't see Teams like the Steelers target the same players that teams like Chicago do. Why?! Because there IS a difference between the two defenses! There is a FUNDAMENTAL difference, and then, depending on your personnel, it can be tweaked. But the BASE philosophies are different enough that defensive coaches most often get described as EITHER 3-4 or 4-3. Case in point: How long have we here screamed about getting a true NT and moving Rat to DE, or going back to the 4-3 so Rat could play the Sapp role?

My original point was that since we have gone back to a 4-3 base philosophy, Zimmer would be a good choice, IMO. What I thought was obvious in that statement was that he would be a good choice, as compared to, a coach like LeBeau, Phillips, and Capers. It's a pretty simple concept, and saying that us playing a 4-3 doesn't matter, just doesn't make sense, because it DOES. It would be totally counter productive to do everything we've done this year, just to turn around and hire Capers next year - BECAUSE he is a 3-4 guy and approaches everything from that pov. Anyway, thanks for the conversation.
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do think Zimmer is a good choice, running a zone heavy defense like we have installed this year. And not having to switch fronts again is a plus. But I will continue to say that it is fact not all 43 and not all 34 fronts are alike.

Bill Parcells 34 Zone defense, very much like Mike Zimmer's 43 Zone defense. Even though they both use different fronts, their method of attack, their gameplan, their coverage schemes, the way they go after blockers, are all very much similar. Those systems are more alike than Carrols defense and our defense, even if both use a 43 front. Well, when Carrol calls for a 43 front, anyway.
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably shouldn't but I'm opening this up again under a new heading.

Pretty simple. Defend Garrett and Co.
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Desperado82


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WizardHawk wrote:
Probably shouldn't but I'm opening this up again under a new heading.

Pretty simple. Defend Garrett and Co.


Garrett got things going in the right direction. He hasn't lost the team, but I don't think he's the guy to get us over the hump.

I do think that if healthy, and with another solid draft devoted to the trenches, this team CAN be competitive. They have shown flashes. I just don't believe in Garrett anymore to be THAT guy to get us there. He and Callahan need to go, and if the new head guy comes in and wants a new DC...find, let Kiffin go - so long as we keep Marinelli.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we make the playoffs Garrett will get a pass. If we don't let the debate begin as to who should be the next HC.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Northland wrote:
If we make the playoffs Garrett will get a pass. If we don't let the debate begin as to who should be the next HC.


Pretty much.
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