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Garrett and Co. - Defend them
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plan9misfit


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baixis wrote:
If we don't WIN a playoff game, I'm all for hiring Zimmer!


I'll never be in support of that.
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Northland wrote:
If mediocrity is your SuperBowl then Garrett is your Lombardi.
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hitstreak07


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

plan9misfit wrote:
Baixis wrote:
If we don't WIN a playoff game, I'm all for hiring Zimmer!


I'll never be in support of that.


I think with the effort they made to bring in Kiffen and Marinelli, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to bring in Zimmer.....
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The_Slamman


Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hitstreak07 wrote:
plan9misfit wrote:
Baixis wrote:
If we don't WIN a playoff game, I'm all for hiring Zimmer!


I'll never be in support of that.


I think with the effort they made to bring in Kiffen and Marinelli, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to bring in Zimmer.....


That's true. The obvious candidates are Lovie Smith and Jon Gruden if we want to keep Kiffen & Marinelli.

But, I think my preference is an offensive HC. In the past I've been against college HCs coming to the NFL. Now, I'd also be willing to look at some college HCs as well.
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If mediocrity is your SuperBowl then Garrett is your Lombardi.


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buddy_z34


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This guy, JG, has really got to go. Im sick and tired of the heartaches i have year after year with him as the HC. Losing games because of mismanaging time and timeouts, making no adjustements and most of all not having that killer mentality to close out a game.

This guy would rather play to not lose a game than play to win it. They say more games in the NFL are lost than actually won, well they must of had JG in mind.

Bring in the real JG (Jon Gruden), reunite him with his coaches from the Bucs and notice the turnaround. Dude already knows how to deal with an owner/GM. Sometimes you need a rah-rah guy and the fake JG isnt that.
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GeneralDissaray


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dallas94Ware wrote:
Everyone whined that we needed a new playcaller. We got one.

Everyone whined that Wade had to go, he did.

Everyone whined Bill had to go, he did.

At some point the whining has to stop. At some point the players have to be held accountable for bad plays. And they never are. Coaches tend to be the scapegoat, but in games like today, the players blew it. That blown coverage (or rather, that 8 or 9 blown coverages) vs Calvin Johnson cost us the game. To allow 320+ yards to one player is pathetic. We had guys on him on several of his big catches, and they failed to make a play - you have to get your hand in there, you have to get your shoulder on the ball, you have to do something, anything, to stop him from snagging it. Our guys didn't.

That isn't on the coaches.


So after 200 yards for Megatron, you wouldn't think you might need to change your strategy? Instead of making some scrub beat you, you think Carr can handle him. That's the right strategy.
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GeneralDissaray


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buddy_z34 wrote:
This guy, JG, has really got to go. Im sick and tired of the heartaches i have year after year with him as the HC. Losing games because of mismanaging time and timeouts, making no adjustements and most of all not having that killer mentality to close out a game.

This guy would rather play to not lose a game than play to win it. They say more games in the NFL are lost than actually won, well they must of had JG in mind.

Bring in the real JG (Jon Gruden), reunite him with his coaches from the Bucs and notice the turnaround. Dude already knows how to deal with an owner/GM. Sometimes you need a rah-rah guy and the fake JG isnt that.


I have no interest in Gruden. If Tyron Smith doesn't hold, Detroit has 20 secs to score a td. I can't put that on anybody but Smith.
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buddy_z34


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeneralDissaray wrote:

I have no interest in Gruden. If Tyron Smith doesn't hold, Detroit has 20 secs to score a td. I can't put that on anybody but Smith.


Or you could put it on Tanner. The one responsible for cutting the play to the outside when the play calls to be ran up the middle. Why was Tanner even in the game?? Dunbar was far more effective from what i saw. Tanner was stinking it up all game. So again it all points back to the HC. Putting your players in a position to win. He could have easily went over and told Tanner just run up the middle and kill some clock, they have no timeouts left. Sounds juvenile but isnt that why they scaled back JG's roles. To focus on situations like these???
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pierrepet


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dallas cannot and should not fire anyone from this coaching staff for at least another year. I too am dissapointed with the mediocrity, but successful organizations do not change coaches and philosophies every 3 years. Dallas has to give Garrett and Kiffing at least 4-5 years in my opinion.

Kiffin does not have the personell to run this defense.
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plan9misfit


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pierrepet wrote:
Dallas cannot and should not fire anyone from this coaching staff for at least another year. I too am dissapointed with the mediocrity, but successful organizations do not change coaches and philosophies every 3 years. Dallas has to give Garrett and Kiffing at least 4-5 years in my opinion.

Kiffin does not have the personell to run this defense.


Garrett has been in charge for 6 years now. He was the defacto head coach when he was the OC, and was the head coach for the last 3 seasons. That's more than enough time to prove whether you can get the job done or not. And he can't. I agree that none of the defensive coaches should go anywhere because the injuries to the defense - namely, the d-line - have been so horrific that it's impossible to determine how the new scheme will play out with a healthy group of personnel.
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Dallas94Ware


Joined: 20 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GeneralDissaray wrote:
Dallas94Ware wrote:
Everyone whined that we needed a new playcaller. We got one.

Everyone whined that Wade had to go, he did.

Everyone whined Bill had to go, he did.

At some point the whining has to stop. At some point the players have to be held accountable for bad plays. And they never are. Coaches tend to be the scapegoat, but in games like today, the players blew it. That blown coverage (or rather, that 8 or 9 blown coverages) vs Calvin Johnson cost us the game. To allow 320+ yards to one player is pathetic. We had guys on him on several of his big catches, and they failed to make a play - you have to get your hand in there, you have to get your shoulder on the ball, you have to do something, anything, to stop him from snagging it. Our guys didn't.

That isn't on the coaches.


So after 200 yards for Megatron, you wouldn't think you might need to change your strategy? Instead of making some scrub beat you, you think Carr can handle him. That's the right strategy.


Where did I once say I would leave Carr on him?

And first of all, you are completely naive to our defense if you think Carr was manned up on Calvin that often. Because he wasn't. We played a ton of zone and rolled the zones to Calvin's side.

Personally, I would have told my guys to tackle low and hobble Calvin if they can, after 200 yards receiving. But then I would likely get banned and fined. I'm old school, though. And old school football, if someone's beating you badly, you hobble 'em up and slow them down. Hit them hard, hit them high, hit them low, just smash them every chance you get. At the very least he will think twice before making that next catch.
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Baixis


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

plan9misfit wrote:
Baixis wrote:
If we don't WIN a playoff game, I'm all for hiring Zimmer!


I'll never be in support of that.


No surprise, as you and I RARELY agree on anything (except the OL love probably). But could you at least say WHY? I know there have to be at least a few people interested in your thinking on this.

From my pov - Zimmer runs a 4-3 (which we now run) that has looked great for many years! And I would argue that Cincy has had less talent that we have too. I believe I've read a number of times in various places that Zimmer's 4-3 and Carroll's 4-3 are similar to Kiffin's - but better from everything I can see! He's primed for a HC gig. He's been here before and JJ liked him. We had the #1 defense the year before bill showed up with Zim running the D. Zim actually is good enough too to adapt his style and have a solid defense, in a system he had never coached before (that's studly!). So why would you not be in favor of this.

Lastly, I would take a defensive HC over an offensive coach almost any day. Offensive guys tend to get too wrapped up in their 'offensive genius' while the rest of the team suffers. Zimmer at HC, with Marinelli at DC, and a young stud at OC, and I would be happy. That being said, if we win 9-10 games AND win a playoff game, I might be ok with Red being around for another year.
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buddy_z34


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Zimmer and Carroll run more man based defenses while Kiffin is more zoned based.
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Baixis


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

buddy_z34 wrote:
I think Zimmer and Carroll run more man based defenses while Kiffin is more zoned based.


Which suites our CBs more for sure!
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buddy_z34


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baixis wrote:
buddy_z34 wrote:
I think Zimmer and Carroll run more man based defenses while Kiffin is more zoned based.


Which suites our CBs more for sure!


Rex Ryan played more man as well and that didnt help. The Cover 2 fits the players well on D, imo. The d-line lost 3 starters. An in the Tampa 2 the dline needs to create a push and allow the fast linebackers to run side to side for the kill.
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baixis wrote:
plan9misfit wrote:
Baixis wrote:
If we don't WIN a playoff game, I'm all for hiring Zimmer!


I'll never be in support of that.


No surprise, as you and I RARELY agree on anything (except the OL love probably). But could you at least say WHY? I know there have to be at least a few people interested in your thinking on this.

From my pov - Zimmer runs a 4-3 (which we now run) that has looked great for many years! And I would argue that Cincy has had less talent that we have too. I believe I've read a number of times in various places that Zimmer's 4-3 and Carroll's 4-3 are similar to Kiffin's - but better from everything I can see! He's primed for a HC gig. He's been here before and JJ liked him. We had the #1 defense the year before bill showed up with Zim running the D. Zim actually is good enough too to adapt his style and have a solid defense, in a system he had never coached before (that's studly!). So why would you not be in favor of this.

Lastly, I would take a defensive HC over an offensive coach almost any day. Offensive guys tend to get too wrapped up in their 'offensive genius' while the rest of the team suffers. Zimmer at HC, with Marinelli at DC, and a young stud at OC, and I would be happy. That being said, if we win 9-10 games AND win a playoff game, I might be ok with Red being around for another year.


That part in bold makes ZERO sense, man.

Running a 34 and 43 front makes only a difference in the front alignment. The overalll concepts remain the same. It makes no difference if you run a cover 2 with a 43 front or a 34 front. Parcells and Belichick ran a 34 front with a cover 2 defense. Kiffin runs a 43 front cover 2. But overall it doesn't matter. It makes no difference if Zimmer runs a 43, because, while we do deploy a 4-3 front alignment, we run a cover 2 defense - which is what Zimmer runs as well. That is what matters. Just because we run a 43 front now, does not mean all the coaches that run a 43 front is a good fit. A 4-3 defensive front alignment is NOT a type of defense, it is simply how your players line up to play your actual scheme.

And Carrol doesn't run a 4-3. Nor does he run a 3-4. He runs a hybrid, which is very similar to a 4-3 with an under package alignment - that is, 4 down linemen, with 3 linebackers, with your weakside linebacker lined up on the line of scrimmage, in a 2 point (stand up) stance ready to rush the passer. He also deploys full blown 3-4 fronts, and has made use of a 3-3 front nickel defense, and even a 2-4 nickel. Carrol's defense is complicated, because of how many fronts he utilizes.

And overall, Carrol's coverage and run stop schemes are just as complicated. He is not as simple as Kiffin or Zimmer. Carrol uses a lot of man-zone packages, where there is man and zone in each play. He also has a wide array of corner blitzes and other zone blitzes, but yet still makes use of the classic man under/zone deep defenses. He runs it all, makes use of it all, and has one of the more complicated defenses in the league right now. Which is why he is widely considered one of the better defensive minds in coaching today.

Sorry if I seem like I'm condescending, just seemed very uneducated to say what you said and I had to explain and elaborate Razz
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