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Early Impressions Of The '12 and '13 Draft Classes
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Donut


Joined: 13 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
Sooner or later I think the Pats are gonna transition back to more 3-4 looks with Hightower as the strongside edge guy and Chandler as the weakside elephant.


I believe Chandler is almost as pure a 4-3 DE as we've had in a while. It seems strange to me that at pick 21, BB decided we'd go 4-3 and at pick 25 decided we'd switch back to a 3-4.

I think that Chandler would be wasted in the 3-4 and clearly Hightower isn't suited for the 4-3.

Still angry that we didn't get Cameron Jordan that draft (and Justin Houston) - I should be a scout. Cool

Jones can play in a 3-4. i said it when he was at Cuse and I still believe it. He's a very athletic guy. he's better suited since he never has had to learn to cover.

And Hightower isn't "clearly" not suited for a 4-3. He's definitely playing out of position. MLB is where he's best bet in the 4-3 and all he's gotten the opportunity to do is play OLB.

And yeah I also liked Cam Jordan. Wanted him over Solder at 17. But iN NO he definitely was not suited to play in a 4-3 and was plauing much better this yr in a 3-4
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TomRalph


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donut wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
Sooner or later I think the Pats are gonna transition back to more 3-4 looks with Hightower as the strongside edge guy and Chandler as the weakside elephant.


I believe Chandler is almost as pure a 4-3 DE as we've had in a while. It seems strange to me that at pick 21, BB decided we'd go 4-3 and at pick 25 decided we'd switch back to a 3-4.

I think that Chandler would be wasted in the 3-4 and clearly Hightower isn't suited for the 4-3.

Still angry that we didn't get Cameron Jordan that draft (and Justin Houston) - I should be a scout. Cool

Jones can play in a 3-4. i said it when he was at Cuse and I still believe it. He's a very athletic guy. he's better suited since he never has had to learn to cover.

And Hightower isn't "clearly" not suited for a 4-3. He's definitely playing out of position. MLB is where he's best bet in the 4-3 and all he's gotten the opportunity to do is play OLB.

And yeah I also liked Cam Jordan. Wanted him over Solder at 17. But iN NO he definitely was not suited to play in a 4-3 and was plauing much better this yr in a 3-4


But at the time before Hightower was selected, when the drafting of Jones had made it apparent we were going for a 4-3 alignment, we had Mayo moving from MLB to WLB and Spikes manning the MLB position. We essentially already had a MLB moving positions to accommodate another MLB and then we go and draft yet another MLB. Confusing to say the least.

Also, totally forgot that Cameron Jordan (and Houston) were 2011 draft, not 2012 draft Embarassed
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TomRalph


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feeling a little better about the '13 Class since I originally created this thread (which was made in response to the Bengals loss IIRC.) Logan Ryan and Duron Harmon have seen extensive PT and have been making a lot of impressive plays and if Collins can continue to perform as he did yesterday going forward, we've got another player who is capable of making a big impact on games (should the game plan dictate) Dobson, of course has shown a little more consistency in recent weeks but still disappointed with a lack of Boyce on the field.

2012 Class is still leaving a lot to be desired though. Wink
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Jones and Dennard continue to start and play well, I'd say the '12 class remains a net win, even if Hightower continues to disappoint once he's back at his natural position.

The '13 class has pretty much come as advertised so far. If Dobson continues to improve, it'll be one of the better classes of the last decade.
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Deadpulse


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:
Donut wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
Sooner or later I think the Pats are gonna transition back to more 3-4 looks with Hightower as the strongside edge guy and Chandler as the weakside elephant.


I believe Chandler is almost as pure a 4-3 DE as we've had in a while. It seems strange to me that at pick 21, BB decided we'd go 4-3 and at pick 25 decided we'd switch back to a 3-4.

I think that Chandler would be wasted in the 3-4 and clearly Hightower isn't suited for the 4-3.

Still angry that we didn't get Cameron Jordan that draft (and Justin Houston) - I should be a scout. Cool

Jones can play in a 3-4. i said it when he was at Cuse and I still believe it. He's a very athletic guy. he's better suited since he never has had to learn to cover.

And Hightower isn't "clearly" not suited for a 4-3. He's definitely playing out of position. MLB is where he's best bet in the 4-3 and all he's gotten the opportunity to do is play OLB.

And yeah I also liked Cam Jordan. Wanted him over Solder at 17. But iN NO he definitely was not suited to play in a 4-3 and was plauing much better this yr in a 3-4


But at the time before Hightower was selected, when the drafting of Jones had made it apparent we were going for a 4-3 alignment, we had Mayo moving from MLB to WLB and Spikes manning the MLB position. We essentially already had a MLB moving positions to accommodate another MLB and then we go and draft yet another MLB. Confusing to say the least.

Also, totally forgot that Cameron Jordan (and Houston) were 2011 draft, not 2012 draft Embarassed


Hightower was drafted for his versatility. Yes, he hasn't been great at every position, but he hasn't been horrible flip flopping between all 3 roles as a second year player in a complicated defense. The mere fact that he CAN play every LB position in this defense, albeit inconsistently in some areas, is impressive to me for a second year player. It is still FAR too early to judge Hightower given how much he has had to learn, never spending long in one role (partly because Spikes keeps falling in and out of favor), and only being in the league for a season and a half. LB's rarely come in and are instant successes in this league.

For that matter, WR is another that rarely comes in and dominates. Moss was an exception, but even Calvin wasn't stellar his rookie year. Dobson just needs 13 catches and 250 yards to match CJ's rookie season.
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jones and Hightower are the best 1-2 first round selections in a long time. Both guys are amazingly talented, and make New England's defense a quality unit. They provide the versatility Bill loves.

Love em both - and I hate the Pats :p
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terbo559


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest I'm a bit disappointed in Hightower. So far he's shown inability to cover well in man or zone, which I think isn't his best skill set anyways, but also he hasn't been able to put pressure on the QB much when blitz are called, and he's been bad choosing the right gaps on runs. There have been many times this season where he anticipated the wrong gap and it resulted in some chunks of yards. Well it could also be that I'm expecting too much from him taking over Mayo's spot. One positive thing I can take from him is that he is a sure tackler, he doesn't let many tackles slip from him.

So far, I've been impressed by Logan Ryan. He's been covering quite well, especially man-to-man. Plus he can play a bit physical a the line, and against receivers. I can see him becoming a solid starter if he is put in that position.
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TomRalph


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

terbo559 wrote:
I think Logan Ryan would be a solid starter if we let Talib walk and he is given the opportunity to take the spot.


With Dennard and Ryan as starting CB's that's a severe lack of athleticism at the CB position. I could see it working though, but I think the ability to put a CB on an athletic TE would be diminished without a CB above 5'11".
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TomRalph


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deadpulse wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
Donut wrote:
TomRalph wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
Sooner or later I think the Pats are gonna transition back to more 3-4 looks with Hightower as the strongside edge guy and Chandler as the weakside elephant.


I believe Chandler is almost as pure a 4-3 DE as we've had in a while. It seems strange to me that at pick 21, BB decided we'd go 4-3 and at pick 25 decided we'd switch back to a 3-4.

I think that Chandler would be wasted in the 3-4 and clearly Hightower isn't suited for the 4-3.

Still angry that we didn't get Cameron Jordan that draft (and Justin Houston) - I should be a scout. Cool

Jones can play in a 3-4. i said it when he was at Cuse and I still believe it. He's a very athletic guy. he's better suited since he never has had to learn to cover.

And Hightower isn't "clearly" not suited for a 4-3. He's definitely playing out of position. MLB is where he's best bet in the 4-3 and all he's gotten the opportunity to do is play OLB.

And yeah I also liked Cam Jordan. Wanted him over Solder at 17. But iN NO he definitely was not suited to play in a 4-3 and was plauing much better this yr in a 3-4


But at the time before Hightower was selected, when the drafting of Jones had made it apparent we were going for a 4-3 alignment, we had Mayo moving from MLB to WLB and Spikes manning the MLB position. We essentially already had a MLB moving positions to accommodate another MLB and then we go and draft yet another MLB. Confusing to say the least.

Also, totally forgot that Cameron Jordan (and Houston) were 2011 draft, not 2012 draft Embarassed


Hightower was drafted for his versatility. Yes, he hasn't been great at every position, but he hasn't been horrible flip flopping between all 3 roles as a second year player in a complicated defense. The mere fact that he CAN play every LB position in this defense, albeit inconsistently in some areas, is impressive to me for a second year player. It is still FAR too early to judge Hightower given how much he has had to learn, never spending long in one role (partly because Spikes keeps falling in and out of favor), and only being in the league for a season and a half. LB's rarely come in and are instant successes in this league.


Can it be considered versatility if he can't play well at the other positions he's supposed to be versatile enough to play in though? Any player is versatile if that's the case. We could play Sopoaga as a FS, he'd be terrible, but if he's playing there, that mean's he's playing 2 positions - does that mean he's versatile?

Note: Obviously an extreme example, obviously Dont'a isn't that bad, but he's not exactly great. Also, Soap at FS? I would pay to see that.
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Dallas94Ware


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When a guy is drafted for versatility, and played in multiple spots and asked to do many, many things in a single game, and made to fit several roles on a unit, the turnover is usually slow going.

It's hard to learn one role or one task coming from the college game to the pros. Trying to learn multiple roles and do several tasks is even harder. ALl things considered, Hightower has performed fairly well in all the roles asked of him. Give him some more time before you really see what he can do.

And again, this is coming from a guy who can't stand your team.
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry fellas. I'm gonna pimp Ryan out until you guys call me his jock strap.

Cool Cool

patsfan25 wrote:
rabbisson wrote:
patsfan25 wrote:
Rab, can you explain to me why you don't like Ryan? Serious question....


When I watched him, I just thought that he was insanely slow and he didn't impress me at all athletically. The other corner, Marcus Cooper, actually impressed me more.

I think he works for our defense though, so I'll deal with it. A CB corps of Talib, Dennard, Dowling, Arrington, Ryan, and Cole works for me. For now, I still believe in Ras-I.


His fit in our scheme maximizes his potential. I directly had an association with the Patriots when I watched him, which made me like him for us so much schematically and from a personnel standpoint. We don't play much man with no tops. I don't think Ryan's inability to cover over the top will be exposed much here based on that. His ability to cover the first half of the defense is invaluable though. Just very instinctive with great anticipation.

BTW, his Combine 40 was 4.57, which isn't even 3/4ths bad.




patsfan25 wrote:


Logan Ryan (CB) - Rutgers : 5'11/6' ~190 lbs.

I think we will acquire additional picks in the 2nd/3rd and use one of them for this guy. Hell, BB may just nab him with our first pick. I like what I see from Ryan. He's probably the best run support CB in this draft, as he's always nosing in to stop the edge. Has superb athleticism for his position. Named All-American and acquires great ball skills. Mirrors route runners really well and has all the tools to be successful at the NFL level. Great attitude and is very well-written. Smart kid who understands the nuances of his position. BB has a fetish for Rutgers DBs, and he has a tying relationship with Devin McCourty.



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On Logan Ryan, pre-draft:
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Logan Ryan will be the steal of the draft.


Aite,

peace.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Collins, Ryan and Harmon all playing extremely well as of late.

Hopefully Dobson can make that year 2 leap as well.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:

Can it be considered versatility if he can't play well at the other positions he's supposed to be versatile enough to play in though? Any player is versatile if that's the case. We could play Sopoaga as a FS, he'd be terrible, but if he's playing there, that mean's he's playing 2 positions - does that mean he's versatile?


Which LB spot has he played poorly in?
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patsfan25


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
Collins, Ryan and Harmon all playing extremely well as of late.

Hopefully Dobson can make that year 2 leap as well.


I was extremely disappointed in Dobson today. Brady probably threw his best ball of the season on that deep ball and he miss played it so poorly. I think he needs a little work with his adjustments and ball location.
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On Logan Ryan, pre-draft:
patsfan25 wrote:
Logan Ryan will be the steal of the draft.


Aite,

peace.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

patsfan25 wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
Collins, Ryan and Harmon all playing extremely well as of late.

Hopefully Dobson can make that year 2 leap as well.


I was extremely disappointed in Dobson today. Brady probably threw his best ball of the season on that deep ball and he miss played it so poorly. I think he needs a little work with his adjustments and ball location.
Looked to me like he couldn't get his arm up.
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