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Is Frazier the worst coach this franchise has ever had?
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, he is not the worst coach the team has had. Steckel was worse, as was Van Brocklin who decided to trade away Tarkenton out of personal spite before leaving the team.

it really bothers me when guys get excited and criticize Frazier for being "emotionless" and not animated enough on the sideline. who cares? do you really think if he was yelling at players the way Harbaugh does we would win more games?

sheesh.
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The Gnat


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vike daddy wrote:
no, he is not the worst coach the team has had. Steckel was worse, as was Van Brocklin who decided to trade away Tarkenton out of personal spite before leaving the team.

it really bothers me when guys get excited and criticize Frazier for being "emotionless" and not animated enough on the sideline. who cares? do you really think if he was yelling at players the way Harbaugh does we would win more games?

sheesh.


Yeah, the issue with Frazier has nothing to do with emotionless, it has everything to do with "Tubby Smithing" the players where he can't get any development nor does he adjust to the skills of the players but instead just does the same thing over and over again.
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milanb


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Frazier has a much better football mind than Rick Spielman or anyone else in the front office.

The impression I get though (and I could be totally wrong here) is that he's not assertive enough with the front office and not ruthless enough in terms of firing assistant coaches who are not getting the job done. He seems to be along for the ride and that's what's going to get him fired.
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El Raymundo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gnat wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
no, he is not the worst coach the team has had. Steckel was worse, as was Van Brocklin who decided to trade away Tarkenton out of personal spite before leaving the team.

it really bothers me when guys get excited and criticize Frazier for being "emotionless" and not animated enough on the sideline. who cares? do you really think if he was yelling at players the way Harbaugh does we would win more games?

sheesh.


Yeah, the issue with Frazier has nothing to do with emotionless, it has everything to do with "Tubby Smithing" the players where he can't get any development nor does he adjust to the skills of the players but instead just does the same thing over and over again.

Help me out here. What's "Tubby Smithing?" It sounds dark and frightening, like a sinister, bad apple on the family tree in a Stephen King novel. One's ankles are not smashed against the bedposts when one is Tubby Smithed, I hope?
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The Gnat


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Raymundo wrote:
The Gnat wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
no, he is not the worst coach the team has had. Steckel was worse, as was Van Brocklin who decided to trade away Tarkenton out of personal spite before leaving the team.

it really bothers me when guys get excited and criticize Frazier for being "emotionless" and not animated enough on the sideline. who cares? do you really think if he was yelling at players the way Harbaugh does we would win more games?

sheesh.


Yeah, the issue with Frazier has nothing to do with emotionless, it has everything to do with "Tubby Smithing" the players where he can't get any development nor does he adjust to the skills of the players but instead just does the same thing over and over again.

Help me out here. What's "Tubby Smithing?" It sounds dark and frightening, like a sinister, bad apple on the family tree in a Stephen King novel. One's ankles are not smashed against the bedposts when one is Tubby Smithed, I hope?


It's not getting any development or improvement out of your players no matter how long they are with the team. The Gophers had some very good talent like Rodney Smith on their basketball team, but were incapable of getting any progress from the players and incapable of fully utilizing the players talents.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gnat wrote:
vike daddy wrote:
no, he is not the worst coach the team has had. Steckel was worse, as was Van Brocklin who decided to trade away Tarkenton out of personal spite before leaving the team.

it really bothers me when guys get excited and criticize Frazier for being "emotionless" and not animated enough on the sideline. who cares? do you really think if he was yelling at players the way Harbaugh does we would win more games?

sheesh.


Yeah, the issue with Frazier has nothing to do with emotionless, it has everything to do with "Tubby Smithing" the players where he can't get any development nor does he adjust to the skills of the players but instead just does the same thing over and over again.


Wow, great post comparing him and Tubby. Exactly spot on.
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swiss_vike


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
I think Frazier has a much better football mind than Rick Spielman or anyone else in the front office.

The impression I get though (and I could be totally wrong here) is that he's not assertive enough with the front office and not ruthless enough in terms of firing assistant coaches who are not getting the job done. He seems to be along for the ride and that's what's going to get him fired.


I rarely agree with you, but I think you probably are right here. He's too nice to really establish his ideas on the coaches _and_ on the players.

But that's a big part of being a HC: you have to be able to get your ideas across and you have to be able to take consequences. Frazier can't do that.

Not the one who has the most knowledge is a good coach, but the one who is able to transfer the most knowledge is.

I really like Frazier as a person...but don't like him as a HC anymore.
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Krauser


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
I think Frazier has a much better football mind than Rick Spielman or anyone else in the front office.


Based on what?

Frazier seems like a nice guy, calm, level-headed. I like him. I don't mind that he's stoic on the sidelines.

But I don't see one thing about his coaching style or the performance of the team that suggests he has a superior "football mind".

Is he good at clock management? No.
Coach's challenges? Not particularly.
Does the team play well in 2 minute drills? No.
Do they seem to make many halftime adjustments? No.
Is he aggressive on 4th downs or with 2 point conversion attempts? No.
Does the offense change tempo (incorporating no huddle)? No.
Does the offense show impressive variety in schemes or personnel? No.
Is play calling predictable? Oh yes.
Is the defensive scheme creative? No.
Is it effective in crucial situations (red zone, 3rd down)? No.
Any luck with trick plays, or defending against trickery? No.
Are personnel used in a way to maximize their potential? No.(There was some nice stuff done with Harvin as a gadget player but I tend to credit that to Musgrave)
Have promising young players reliably developed as promised? No.
Have any unheralded talents come from nowhere to surprise the league? No. (Maybe John Sullivan?)
What's his coaching record like after the bye week? Terrible.
In prime time? Terrible.
On the road? Terrible.
At the end of close games? Hit and miss at best.
Have they pulled off any surprising upsets? Not many (@Philadelphia with Joe Webb, the SF game last year).
Any dominating victories over good teams? Not really, maybe the Texans last year.
Have they been blown out in games they were expected to win, or at least compete, looking like they've mailed it in? Yep. Twice in a row now.

I get the sense that Frazier is a good leader in the sense of being a sincere and solid man in charge, but nothing about him says "football mind", not in terms of player development, or game planning, or in-game managerial skills. No one is ever going to write a book about his innovative coaching style.
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wcblack34


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:
milanb wrote:
I think Frazier has a much better football mind than Rick Spielman or anyone else in the front office.


Based on what?

Frazier seems like a nice guy, calm, level-headed. I like him. I don't mind that he's stoic on the sidelines.

But I don't see one thing about his coaching style or the performance of the team that suggests he has a superior "football mind".

Is he good at clock management? No.
Coach's challenges? Not particularly.
Does the team play well in 2 minute drills? No.
Do they seem to make many halftime adjustments? No.
Is he aggressive on 4th downs or with 2 point conversion attempts? No.
Does the offense change tempo (incorporating no huddle)? No.
Does the offense show impressive variety in schemes or personnel? No.
Is play calling predictable? Oh yes.
Is the defensive scheme creative? No.
Is it effective in crucial situations (red zone, 3rd down)? No.
Any luck with trick plays, or defending against trickery? No.
Are personnel used in a way to maximize their potential? No.(There was some nice stuff done with Harvin as a gadget player but I tend to credit that to Musgrave)
Have promising young players reliably developed as promised? No.
Have any unheralded talents come from nowhere to surprise the league? No. (Maybe John Sullivan?)
What's his coaching record like after the bye week? Terrible.
In prime time? Terrible.
On the road? Terrible.
At the end of close games? Hit and miss at best.
Have they pulled off any surprising upsets? Not many (@Philadelphia with Joe Webb, the SF game last year).
Any dominating victories over good teams? Not really, maybe the Texans last year.
Have they been blown out in games they were expected to win, or at least compete, looking like they've mailed it in? Yep. Twice in a row now.

I get the sense that Frazier is a good leader in the sense of being a sincere and solid man in charge, but nothing about him says "football mind", not in terms of player development, or game planning, or in-game managerial skills. No one is ever going to write a book about his innovative coaching style.


Preach it Brother Krauser!
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milanb


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:
milanb wrote:
I think Frazier has a much better football mind than Rick Spielman or anyone else in the front office.


Based on what?

Frazier seems like a nice guy, calm, level-headed. I like him. I don't mind that he's stoic on the sidelines.

But I don't see one thing about his coaching style or the performance of the team that suggests he has a superior "football mind".

Is he good at clock management? No.
Coach's challenges? Not particularly.
Does the team play well in 2 minute drills? No.
Do they seem to make many halftime adjustments? No.
Is he aggressive on 4th downs or with 2 point conversion attempts? No.
Does the offense change tempo (incorporating no huddle)? No.
Does the offense show impressive variety in schemes or personnel? No.
Is play calling predictable? Oh yes.
Is the defensive scheme creative? No.
Is it effective in crucial situations (red zone, 3rd down)? No.
Any luck with trick plays, or defending against trickery? No.
Are personnel used in a way to maximize their potential? No.(There was some nice stuff done with Harvin as a gadget player but I tend to credit that to Musgrave)
Have promising young players reliably developed as promised? No.
Have any unheralded talents come from nowhere to surprise the league? No. (Maybe John Sullivan?)
What's his coaching record like after the bye week? Terrible.
In prime time? Terrible.
On the road? Terrible.
At the end of close games? Hit and miss at best.
Have they pulled off any surprising upsets? Not many (@Philadelphia with Joe Webb, the SF game last year).
Any dominating victories over good teams? Not really, maybe the Texans last year.
Have they been blown out in games they were expected to win, or at least compete, looking like they've mailed it in? Yep. Twice in a row now.


Did Frazier inherit a bad football team? Yes.
Did he lead that team to a 10-6 record and a playoff berth last year? Yes.
Does he have the worst QB situation in the NFL? Yes.
Does he have any player talent on defence? No.
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swiss_vike


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Did Frazier inherit a bad football team? Yes.


An aging team. Yes.

milanb wrote:
Did he lead that team to a 10-6 record and a playoff berth last year? Yes


Yes. On the back of the best RB since Barry Sanders that had a season for the ages...with a favorable schedule to boot with. Still, it was an impressive run.

milanb wrote:
Does he have the worst QB situation in the NFL? Yes.


No. Jags have it worse, much worse. Browns are similar...I would describe it worse. It's bad, but not worst.

milanb wrote:
Does he have any player talent on defence? No.


Disagree. Talent is there. Our D-Line is till above average and our secondary has some promise when healthy.

I would add to your statements:

Does he have one of the worst offensive coordinators in the league? Yes.
Does he have one of the worst defensive coordinators in the lequge? Yes.

I'm convinced that a good coach would have this team competing for the division title.
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milanb


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swiss_vike wrote:
milanb wrote:
Did Frazier inherit a bad football team? Yes.


An aging team. Yes.

milanb wrote:
Did he lead that team to a 10-6 record and a playoff berth last year? Yes


Yes. On the back of the best RB since Barry Sanders that had a season for the ages...with a favorable schedule to boot with. Still, it was an impressive run.



The Vikings weren't exactly blowing anyone last year. It takes a tremendous amount of mental toughness, discipline and team unity to win that many close games.

I don't think Frazier gets nearly enough credit for squeezing 10 wins out of the team he had last year. Remember, he also had to deal with Percy Harvin's injury and subsequent meltdown, and some brutal QB play by Ponder for most of the year.

swiss_vike wrote:


milanb wrote:
Does he have the worst QB situation in the NFL? Yes.


No. Jags have it worse, much worse. Browns are similar...I would describe it worse. It's bad, but not worst.



The Vikings QBs have been terrible every single game other than the Steelers game, which they won. They could easily be 4-2 if Ponder had done a decent job of taking care of the ball.

The decision to bring in Freeman in mid-season and hand him the starter's job was bizarre, and almost certainly came from the front office. The Vikings had no chance against the Giants given Freeman's level of play. Meanwhile the move has undermined the relationship between Frazier and his incumbent QBs, and probably divided the locker room too.


swiss_vike wrote:

milanb wrote:
Does he have any player talent on defence? No.


Disagree. Talent is there. Our D-Line is till above average and our secondary has some promise when healthy.



Kevin Williams and Jared Allen are nearing the end of their careers. They're nowhere near the dominant players they were even two years ago. Brian Robison has never been more than a barely-average DE who took advantage of the mismatches that Williams and Allen have created on the on the other side of the line. Letroy Guion? Please. Floyd looks promising as Williams' eventual replacement but he's a very raw rookie at this point in time.

The linebackers are a disaster. Chad Greenway is pushing 30 now and is nowhere near the Pro Bowl LB he was a couple of years ago. Everyone else is strictly bottom-of-the-depth chart material on most teams.

Don't even get me started on the secondary. Harrison Smith was the only player on defence who was playing at a high level and he's probably gone for the season. Rhodes, like Floyd, has talent but is still very raw. Everyone else is just awful.
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Krauser


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Did Frazier inherit a bad football team? Yes.
Did he lead that team to a 10-6 record and a playoff berth last year? Yes.
Does he have the worst QB situation in the NFL? Yes.
Does he have any player talent on defence? No.


He's not a terrible coach, he was a good choice after things fell apart with Childress. He's a good leader. He's maintained excellent discipline on and off the field. The players seem to like him. Until recently, they've played hard for him. Until this year, I would have supported him being given the job long-term.

That still doesn't mean he's got a "much better football mind" than Spielman or anyone else. The kinds of things that good "football minds" (Belichick, Walsh, etc) produce are exactly the kinds of things his team has never been particularly good at. And as this season has soured week by week he's done nothing obviously creative or impressive to try to turn it around.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, close games are mostly won and lost by luck, not mental toughness. Otherwise teams would keep winning close games the following year, which the math shows is not generally true.
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swiss_vike


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
I don't think Frazier gets nearly enough credit for squeezing 10 wins out of the team he had last year. Remember, he also had to deal with Percy Harvin's injury and subsequent meltdown, and some brutal QB play by Ponder for most of the year.


yet, fails to squeeze out a win against the terrible Giants...and all but one win in 6 contests.

milanb wrote:
The Vikings QBs have been terrible every single game other than the Steelers game, which they won. They could easily be 4-2 if Ponder had done a decent job of taking care of the ball.


Ponder left the field winning in 2 of three games. The defense gave up long drives twice...by playing horribly soft.

milanb wrote:
The decision to bring in Freeman in mid-season and hand him the starter's job was bizarre, and almost certainly came from the front office. The Vikings had no chance against the Giants given Freeman's level of play. Meanwhile the move has undermined the relationship between Frazier and his incumbent QBs, and probably divided the locker room too.


I agree it was a suspect move by Spielman. But a serious question here: do you think that throwing 53 times and running 13 times is a good gameplan when bringing in a new QB from the street?

milanb wrote:
The linebackers are a disaster. Chad Greenway is pushing 30 now and is nowhere near the Pro Bowl LB he was a couple of years ago. Everyone else is strictly bottom-of-the-depth chart material on most teams.


Was it coaches decision to put Erin in the middle? Was it Spielmann? Or did they have no choice?
We have 2 LB coaches and this is the result?
Why do you put them in space when everybody around the league know that this is their exact weakness?
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