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Is Frazier the worst coach this franchise has ever had?
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since72


Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 3441
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Raymundo wrote:
So we have this, in my humble opinion:

Tier I - Bud Grant
Tier II - Jerry Burns, Dennis Greene
Tier III - Mike Tice, Brad Childress
Tier IV - Norm Van Brocklin, Les Steckel, Leslie Frazier

Thoughts?


I would definitely concur with this. I'd rank them...

Grant
Green
Burns
Childress
Tice
Van Brocklin
Frazier
Steckel

In that order.

While Frazier and Steckel were both 3-13 in their first season, it was clear Steckel had completely lost the team and could not have continued. For that reason, Steckel was the worst ever.

I was too young when Van Brocklin was coaching but I don't hear any praise for him from anywhere.

Tice was not HC material. He was a great position coach.

Does a coach bring out the best in his players? Green started out with a lot less talent than Frazier has and yet had mostly winning seasons. Childress had to be given a squad of Pro Bowlers and future HOF'ers before he could win. I was never impressed by his "play to not lose" approach.

Frazier belongs near the bottom. Look at how he's developed Carlson, Harvin, Webb, Jennings, {insert any defensive lineman}, {insert any defensive back}. The offensive line has regressed. Ponder is playing like a rookie.

If we are going to have another 3-13 season, I'd rather have the HC talk about "taking the hill" than "we need to look at the tape".
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Boda


Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 750
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
I don't know.

Frazier is held in very high regard throughout the NFL.

He coached a bad football team to a 10-6 record last year.

This team just doesn't have a lot of talent, and the organization as a whole is dysfunctional. The QB situation is an absolute disaster too, and Frazier has little control over that.

In any event, he's a much better coach than Mike Tice ever was.

I don't agree with Frazier being a much better coach than Tice was. I really believe Tice gets a lot of blame that he shouldn't. How many coaches/assistants was Tice allowed again? I just remember that Tice had very little to work with and took a lot of blame he shouldn't have. Now Frazier is clearly much better than Brad Childress was.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Childress, Tice and Steckel were worse than Frazier. The record may say otherwise, though.
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Eric dunn


Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frazier is not the worst, but he is definately in over his head. Not to mention his whole coaching staff and coordinators are clueless.

IF we had a legit coach like John Harbaugh coaching this team, there is no doubt in my mind that we would be 4-2 right now..

The talent is there, imo. Sure the secondary is bad, but Joe Woods and Alan Williams have alot to do with that imo.

I think if we can get a good HC this offseason, we can turn it around like the Cheifs did this year. Maybe not so drastically by going 7-0, but you get the point. Add a few free agents, CB (Browner) , G(Asomoah) , NT (Joseph). And if you get the opportunity to add a top flight QB like Teddy, you jump on it. That alone would drastically improve this team. IF not you take BPA, which could very well be Clowney.
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Boda


Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 750
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
I think Childress, Tice and Steckel were worse than Frazier. The record may say otherwise, though.

Was Tice ever really given a chance to succeed though?
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ktarinze


Joined: 08 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tbh Mike Tice wasn't that bad compared to childress and frazier lol, but he is not the worst. Just another bad coach in the long line of them.
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this providence


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been a fan of Frazier since the hire. Above all else, learning the position on the job, in the NFL no less, is never a good recipe for success.

However, given the 3 year make-up of this team and their performances (3-13, 10-6, lots'o losses), he must have done an adequate job last season if he coached this roster to a play-off berth. Even if it was on the back of a historic season. For that reason alone, he's not the worst.
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Freakout


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked Childress better than Fraizer. His attitude did wear on people. That was his biggest problem but he wasn't a bad coach. He believed in building from the trenches and our lines (outside of right tackle) was our strengths. I have little doubt that he was the driving force behind signing Hutchinson. Spielman hasn't shown any desire to spend much on the guard position. Plus at least Childress had a bit of a clue when he brought in Bevell and Tomlin.

Being a WVU fan, signing Fraizer has always reminded me of when WVU overreacted and signed Bill Stewart after the Rich Rodriguez fiasco. It was a hire made on emotion rather than ability.
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chuck44


Joined: 17 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
You're clearly not old enough to have experienced the Les Steckel season.


that was a dark time...i cringe hearing the name Les Steckle
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perrynoid


Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck44 wrote:
disaacs wrote:
You're clearly not old enough to have experienced the Les Steckel season.


that was a dark time...i cringe hearing the name Les Steckle


In SE MN, I actually remember seeing "Less Steckel" bumper stickers.
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ArcticNorseman


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my book, Frazier is better than Von Brocklin, Steckle, Burns, and Childress. Obviously, he's not as good as Bud.

So, to me he fits somewhere in between/around Tice and Green. I whole-heartedly believe that if Tice would've been allowed to sign Jevon Kearse and another couple defensive starters as FAs, that Vikings squad would've been really good.

That said, Tice got the job because he convinced a tightwad owner that he could win cheap. It was a receipe for disaster. Similarly, Green would not draft stud defensive players much less keep good coordinators, but he was money on offense.

In Frazier's case, he needs to prove he has some survival instinct. Firing Singletary, Woods, and Musgrave would go a long way to cementing him as the top dog not to be messed with. I think he's being pinched behind enemy lines by friendly fire and he's not handling it well. The only way for him to survive this is to win games . . . and the only way to get that done is to execute someone on the staff.
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swiss_vike


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tice might have been crazy...but his teams came to play each day and he maximized his talents.

Can't say that much for Frazier anymore. He starts loosing it, protecting his coaching staff and throwing players under the bus....that's a clear sign of a coach loosing the locker room....and it's out of character for Frazier.

Frazier's trouble is mostly due to his biggest personal strenghts: loyality. He's extremely loyal to his coaches and players (...but see above)...by going as far as having 2 LB coaches instead of releasing one. He does not demand changes and adjustements of his coordinators. Making adjustements is probably the most important thing in this league as a coach.

He might be better than Steckel, but not better than any other coach we have had.
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vikingshomer


Joined: 01 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
I don't know.

Frazier is held in very high regard throughout the NFL.

He coached a bad football team to a 10-6 record last year.

This team just doesn't have a lot of talent, and the organization as a whole is dysfunctional. The QB situation is an absolute disaster too, and Frazier has little control over that.

In any event, he's a much better coach than Mike Tice ever was.

As more time goes on this year, it's becoming clear that last year's record was a fluke and nothing else. Frazier is terrible.
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El Raymundo


Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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Location: Northern Virginia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

swiss_vike wrote:
[Frazier] starts loosing it, protecting his coaching staff and throwing players under the bus....that's a clear sign of a coach loosing the locker room....and it's out of character for Frazier.


I haven't seen or heard of this happening (see bolded text). Do you have some examples?

vikingshomer wrote:
As more time goes on this year, it's becoming clear that last year's record was a fluke and nothing else.


This is how I feel. Adrian Peterson had an epic, spectacular, probably never to be repeated run of games that propelled us into the post-season. The rest of the team had less to do with it. And I think the coaching contributed less than that.
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swiss_vike


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Raymundo wrote:
swiss_vike wrote:
[Frazier] starts loosing it, protecting his coaching staff and throwing players under the bus....that's a clear sign of a coach loosing the locker room....and it's out of character for Frazier.


I haven't seen or heard of this happening (see bolded text). Do you have some examples?



Press conference this monday, he stated that he and the coaching couldn't possibly prepare better for the game against the giants (refusing to take responsibility) and that turnovers and lack of turnovers were responsible for the defeat (in other words, fully blaming the players for the loss).

After the Browns game, he said something similar, in that his coordinators are not the ones executing the plays.

I agree that he does not call out anybody in particular, but by a) refusing to take responsibility for his coaching duties and b) only blaming execution, he throws his players under the bus. That's not something a leader of a team should do publicly.
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