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Is Frazier the worst coach this franchise has ever had?
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joru1000


Joined: 23 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Is Frazier the worst coach this franchise has ever had? Reply with quote

...and is this the worst coaching staff when Musgrave and Williams are included?
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're clearly not old enough to have experienced the Les Steckel season.
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Vikefan79


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
You're clearly not old enough to have experienced the Les Steckel season.


I was 4 years old and had no idea what a Viking was Laughing
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milanb


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know.

Frazier is held in very high regard throughout the NFL.

He coached a bad football team to a 10-6 record last year.

This team just doesn't have a lot of talent, and the organization as a whole is dysfunctional. The QB situation is an absolute disaster too, and Frazier has little control over that.

In any event, he's a much better coach than Mike Tice ever was.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was about 10 years old during the Les Steckel season, and Frazier's staff can coach circles around Steckel.

The only thing I can say is overall, Steckel probably did have better coordinators, future Vikings' HC Jerry Burns was the OC, and future Titans' GM Floyd Reese was the DC. However, to me it's clear that the Steckel season was worse than this, because Jerry Burns literally quit a month before the season was even over.

You could ask Scott Studwell, as he was there. Here's a quote I found:

"He alienated a lot of people and it was getting pretty ugly around here...He wanted everybody to conform to his way of thinking instead of building his program around the team."

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=x6YRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=s-kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3052,1306728&dq=les+steckel+vikings&hl=en
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Last edited by disaacs on Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SublimeViking


Joined: 22 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Frazier the worst coach this franchise has ever had? Reply with quote

joru1000 wrote:
...and is this the worst coaching staff when Musgrave and Williams are included?


No the worst coaching staff was Frazier, Musgrave and Pagac Laughing
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disaacs


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Frazier the worst coach this franchise has ever had? Reply with quote

SublimeViking wrote:
joru1000 wrote:
...and is this the worst coaching staff when Musgrave and Williams are included?


No the worst coaching staff was Frazier, Musgrave and Pagac Laughing


What I think this comes back to is not even really Musgrave, Frazier, or Williams. It's some of the position coaches. As I said recently even, I have no idea why Joe Woods is still coaching here. He was bad under Childress...he hasn't improved. Pagac the same. Pagac is better than Woods, but that's not saying a whole lot. We saw improvement in the O-Line once Pat Morris and that other guy under Childress were ushered out the door. The same should be done with Woods and Pagac.
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El Raymundo


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to bring Tice back as OL coach.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. Steckel was worse.

There have been several pretty bad head coaches, and some really good ones, and some under and over rated ones, imo.

But, I think this is one of the worst ones ever, and also, one of the worst in the NFL today. Regardless if they are the worst or not, or how they compare to the other "worsts" in the league, I believe they are not good enough to lead a team to greatness. Not even close.
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El Raymundo


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going from memory - I don't think I missed anyone here - these are the names of the men who have been head coaches for the Vikings, listed in chronological order (leaving out Bud Grant's second tenure):

Norm Van Brocklin
Bud Grant
Les Steckel
Jerry Burns
Dennis Greene
Mike Tice
Brad Childress
Leslie Frazier

From that group, Van Brocklin, Steckel, and Frazier have not fared well at all. (I'm of the opinion that the team vastly over-achieved last year and didn't really deserve to be in the playoffs.) So I would put those guys in the bottom tier.

Childress and Tice I consider about the same - with neither being as bad as the preceding three but neither being as good as the next two either. Tice has nothing to work with, staff-wise, and all sorts of off-the-field issue to handle. Childress created problems. Both had some success, but mostly not.

Dennis Greene and Jerry Burns go in another group. Then, to top them all, we have Bud.

So we have this, in my humble opinion:

Tier I - Bud Grant
Tier II - Jerry Burns, Dennis Greene
Tier III - Mike Tice, Brad Childress
Tier IV - Norm Van Brocklin, Les Steckel, Leslie Frazier

Thoughts?
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x0x


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Historically, I saw Van Brocklin produced only 1 winning season in 6 seasons but this included starting from square one.


With regards to Mike Tice, he squandered what I think was a talented team for 2002-2004. Those teams could have easily posted 10+ wins. But who the hell knows how they would have fared in playoffs.

Frazier's record is abysmal any way you look at it and if this team goes 3-13 or similar he's gone.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As many of you know, I think not being allowed to hire an OC kind of hurt Tice.....give him this owner, this money, and a chance to build a staff, and he has this squad with a winnig record, imo.
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x0x


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

El Raymundo wrote:

Childress and Tice I consider about the same - with neither being as bad as the preceding three but neither being as good as the next two either. Tice has nothing to work with, staff-wise, and all sorts of off-the-field issue to handle. Childress created problems. Both had some success, but mostly not.


I'd consider Childress above Tice for having less to work with talent wise for majority seasons and putting it together in 2009 when having the right pieces.

Mike Tice had a top team in 2003 and failed miserably, not just the 6-0 start but overall that team was 11-5 at worst. In 2002 he could not maintain leads late, otherwise that's easily a playoff team. Then in 2004 when he makes playoffs at 8-8, that team also lost several close games and could have been put in a better position.
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joru1000


Joined: 23 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Frazier the worst coach this franchise has ever had? Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
SublimeViking wrote:
joru1000 wrote:
...and is this the worst coaching staff when Musgrave and Williams are included?


No the worst coaching staff was Frazier, Musgrave and Pagac Laughing


What I think this comes back to is not even really Musgrave, Frazier, or Williams. It's some of the position coaches. As I said recently even, I have no idea why Joe Woods is still coaching here. He was bad under Childress...he hasn't improved. Pagac the same. Pagac is better than Woods, but that's not saying a whole lot. We saw improvement in the O-Line once Pat Morris and that other guy under Childress were ushered out the door. The same should be done with Woods and Pagac.


I don't know. We have a DC who still thinks a successful defense can be achieved using a scheme and philosophy that should by all accounts have died 5+ years ago.

We have an OC who can't adjust his gameplan at any point in the game.

And to top if off we have an emotionless HC that I can't imagine garners real respect by a single player on the team.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

x0x wrote:
El Raymundo wrote:

Childress and Tice I consider about the same - with neither being as bad as the preceding three but neither being as good as the next two either. Tice has nothing to work with, staff-wise, and all sorts of off-the-field issue to handle. Childress created problems. Both had some success, but mostly not.


I'd consider Childress above Tice for having less to work with talent wise for majority seasons and putting it together in 2009 when having the right pieces.

Mike Tice had a top team in 2003 and failed miserably, not just the 6-0 start but overall that team was 11-5 at worst. In 2002 he could not maintain leads late, otherwise that's easily a playoff team. Then in 2004 when he makes playoffs at 8-8, that team also lost several close games and could have been put in a better position.


you have forgotten they were well under the cap, and he was not allowed to hire an OC.....I am baffled that anyone thinks he had mega resources at all.
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