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this providence


Joined: 28 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How anyone could say that this offensive line is a talented unit truly escapes me. Especially when 2 of the 5 are Charlie Johnson and Brandon Fusco.

wcblack34 wrote:
Frazier hasn't done everything that I, a fan who posts on an internet forum, think he should have done. Therefore, I think he should be canned, and if the next one doesn't come on here to read my sage advice and act accordingly, he needs to go too.


Gosh, that was easy.

wcblack34 wrote:
You could hand Leslie Frazier the Broncos and they'd be a 6-10 team. The fact of the matter is that our coaching is just plain terrible. Great coaches make chicken salad out of chicken crap. Leslie Frazier takes chicken salad and turns it into a heaping pile of elephant dung.


Hyperbole sure is fun.
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Krauser


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
golf333333 wrote:


This is ridiculous. I could coach the Broncos to 13-3+ by staying out of the way. Coaching in the NFL is important, but much less so than any other division of football. These guys coach with what is put in front of them, and in this case, it's a terrible football team. Leslie coached this team to the playoffs last year with a horrid quarterback, no WRs, and a defense that no one was talking about. So which is it? Did he go from the best coach in the NFL to the worst? Give me a break.



That works both ways though. Has the talent dropped off so much from last year? I think we have below average talent and Frazier is a below average coach, but we're not so untalented and Frazier's not such a bad coach that with a few breaks we couldn't have a winning record.


Bum Phillips said about Bear Bryant: "He can take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n."

Does anyone sincerely think Frazier is such a good coach that you could say the same about him?

Does anyone think the Vikings are so untalented that 1-5 was the best possible outcome, no matter who was named their coach after the playoff loss last year?
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golf333333


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:
Right, that's why good defensive coaches (Belichick, Rex Ryan, etc) put together good to excellent squads every year even when playing converted WRs at CB. And the Vikings have 2 1st rounders, a 2nd rounder and a 3rd rounder in the secondary and can't stop a last minute drive to save their lives.


Rex Ryan was the odds on favorite at the beginning of the year to be the first coach fired, and his teams have been absolutely terrible recently. That is a horrible argument. Your Vikings argument is even worse...you have that much talent but they still can't tackle, can't cover...that's stuff you learn in high school, not stuff NFL coaches teach you. That's on drafting the wrong guys.

Krauser wrote:
Jeff Saturday made it on rep from fan voting as a long-time vet who used to play with Peyton Manning. Kalil made it as a rookie, named by the coaches based on his play. They're completely opposite situations. Kalil hasn't been great this year, he was bad against the Lions and the Giants (playing hurt last week). But he still hasn't given up a sack this year.


If you think Kalil has been even remotely above average this year, all your other arguments mean nothing. He is just like McKinnie, talented, but lazy. Fact is, they tried to bulk up Kalil so he could handle NFL football. He didn't have the frame for it. He has lost quickness, and has no drive. That is painfully obvious.

Krauser wrote:
They have a good offensive line that's not playing well together as a unit, making mistakes picking up blitzes and stunts. It's not a lack of talent, but a problem with on-field performance.

They have a defense that gets no pressure in part because they play a vanilla scheme where coaching adds nothing above the ability of their pass rushers to beat the man in front of them.

They have a bottom 5 secondary despite legitimate talent, drafted highly, that has played well as recently as this time last year, and that are nowhere near too old. They turned over a 36 year old slot corner who's currently still unemployed, replacing him with a rookie CB that was often mocked to go in the top 15 picks, who's been one of the best rookie CBs in the league this year. Where's the evidence that they're playing as well as they're capable of? What do you think happens to that unit's performance if we trade them all to the Patriots?


This part is my favorite. They can't pick up blitzes and stunts? I bet you have coached a ton of high level football in your life. These guys just flat out aren't good. I've seen our QBs get killed far too many times on 4 man rushes to blame scheme.

Note to armchair QBs everywhere: Schemes don't make a defense. Players make a defense. You, and every other delusional fan, call for all these exotic blitzes and what not. If you had your way, the team would blitz every play. Lining up and beating your man is how you win football games.

And to my favorite part, "Bottom 5 secondary despite talent". What in the world has shown you that this secondary has talent? Seriously question.

These arguments about "oh a guy was drafted high so he's talented and is being misued by the coaching staff" is the biggest joke I've ever heard. Take note, every team in the NFL has the same opportunites in the draft. Barring trades, everyone gets a pick in every round. This isn't college football where one team gets whoever they want and others are left with the scraps. Everyone has 1st and 2nd round picks all over on both sides of the field, ours are just worse than others. And that's on coaching.

If you're telling me you could put Belicheck in charge of our defense and be anything better than average, you're kidding yourself. Look how unflattering his teams were without a franchise QB and without actual talent drafted on defense. Congratulations on the worst post I have ever seen on this topic.
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golf333333


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:
Bum Phillips said about Bear Bryant: "He can take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n."

Does anyone sincerely think Frazier is such a good coach that you could say the same about him?

Does anyone think the Vikings are so untalented that 1-5 was the best possible outcome, no matter who was named their coach after the playoff loss last year?


Again, statistically speaking we were projected to be one of the worst teams in the NFL this season. No one should be surprised and no one should blame coaching. Last season's 10-6 was 100% Adrian Peterson. No players has single handedly dominated a season like he did in a long time.

Fact of the matter is, there is very very little talent here compared to other NFL teams:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Football_Outsiders_projects_that_Vikings_could_be_worst_team_in_NFL090513
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this providence


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:
[Does anyone think the Vikings are so untalented that 1-5 was the best possible outcome, no matter who was named their coach after the playoff loss last year?


Based on what they have at the QB position and what this league has turned into, absolutely.

There's very few coaches in the NFL that are going to make a marked improvement on what they're currently getting out this team based on the pieces available to them. Given the chances of finding one of types of coaches are pretty slim based on the turnover at the position, I believe it's much more likely this team would hypothetically be in the same position.

Speaking in relative player terms, I view Frazier and his staff as replacement level and likely a little below. I believe they could hire anyone that's qualified and generally get what we've seen out of this roster. However, at the same token, this team is so poor at the positions that matter, an above average to elite staff isn't going to see large gains either.

Which is why I, more than anything, place this franchise's shortcomings largely on the staff that assembled what we see before us every Sunday. People can say coaching until they're blue in the face, but this team's where they are because of how it's been built. Headlined by a QB blunder that's already wasted 3 years and counting.
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Worm Guts


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this providence wrote:
Krauser wrote:
[Does anyone think the Vikings are so untalented that 1-5 was the best possible outcome, no matter who was named their coach after the playoff loss last year?


Based on what they have at the QB position and what this league has turned into, absolutely.



That's obviously not true. We're probably 2 plays away from 3-3. If you believe that the coach has any influence, then you have to believe a better coach gets those plays made.
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this providence


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
this providence wrote:
Krauser wrote:
[Does anyone think the Vikings are so untalented that 1-5 was the best possible outcome, no matter who was named their coach after the playoff loss last year?


Based on what they have at the QB position and what this league has turned into, absolutely.



That's obviously not true. We're probably 2 plays away from 3-3. If you believe that the coach has any influence, then you have to believe a better coach gets those plays made.


And they're 1 play away from 0-6...

Bad teams find ways to lose games. The same is true in every sport.
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swiss_vike


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
this providence wrote:
Krauser wrote:
[Does anyone think the Vikings are so untalented that 1-5 was the best possible outcome, no matter who was named their coach after the playoff loss last year?


Based on what they have at the QB position and what this league has turned into, absolutely.



That's obviously not true. We're probably 2 plays away from 3-3. If you believe that the coach has any influence, then you have to believe a better coach gets those plays made.


A better coach would not play a soft prevent defense on the last drive when he knows that the defense will break.

A better coach would call timeout when a player waves because he sees a horrible mismatch.

Sure, players could have made plays. Better players would make better plays.

But good coaches don't put players in bad position. And that's what our coaches are doing almost every week.

A small example: of course, Floyd was stupid to carry the ball on the punt. Sure, a better and smarter player wouldn't do that. I completely agree. But good coaches would never let that happen...especially since it was obvious that they will avoid Sherels and the game is still within reach.

Blame can be put on both sides, but it's usually the good coaches coming on top vs the good players.
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Worm Guts


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this providence wrote:
Worm Guts wrote:
this providence wrote:
Krauser wrote:
[Does anyone think the Vikings are so untalented that 1-5 was the best possible outcome, no matter who was named their coach after the playoff loss last year?


Based on what they have at the QB position and what this league has turned into, absolutely.



That's obviously not true. We're probably 2 plays away from 3-3. If you believe that the coach has any influence, then you have to believe a better coach gets those plays made.


And they're 1 play away from 0-6...

Bad teams find ways to lose games. The same is true in every sport.


My point was that it's hard to argue that a different coach couldn't have better results. 1-5 isn't the ceiling for where this team could be. I agree it's not the floor either.
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this providence wrote:
How anyone could say that this offensive line is a talented unit truly escapes me. Especially when 2 of the 5 are Charlie Johnson and Brandon Fusco.


Having a good line isn't about having great talent across the board. It's about how they work together as a unit. Right now, there's no cohesion.
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Today, I will guarantee you that 3 QBs will NOT be the first 3 picks of the 2014 NFL Draft, nor will there be 3 QBs taken in the Top 10.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:
this providence wrote:
How anyone could say that this offensive line is a talented unit truly escapes me. Especially when 2 of the 5 are Charlie Johnson and Brandon Fusco.


Having a good line isn't about having great talent across the board. It's about how they work together as a unit. Right now, there's no cohesion.


I agree.

And in reviewing the Football Outsiders grading of the offensive line this year, it appears that actually Fusco is doing a pretty decent job this year as the mid-guard and RT sides' ALY (adjusted line yards) are ranked #8 and #9 in the entire NFL. It's the left side of the line, most notably Kalil, that is struggling mightily. While Johnson isn't highly talented, before the last 2 games, he was reasonably competent. They could certainly upgrade him, however.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how long Kalil has had back issues this season. He just hasn't looked right out there all season.
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El Raymundo


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worm Guts wrote:
golf333333 wrote:


This is ridiculous. I could coach the Broncos to 13-3+ by staying out of the way. Coaching in the NFL is important, but much less so than any other division of football. These guys coach with what is put in front of them, and in this case, it's a terrible football team. Leslie coached this team to the playoffs last year with a horrid quarterback, no WRs, and a defense that no one was talking about. So which is it? Did he go from the best coach in the NFL to the worst? Give me a break.



That works both ways though. Has the talent dropped off so much from last year? I think we have below average talent and Frazier is a below average coach, but we're not so untalented and Frazier's not such a bad coach that with a few breaks we couldn't have a winning record.

Or an epic series of games from Peterson.
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El Raymundo


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:
Bum Phillips said about Bear Bryant: "He can take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n."

Does anyone sincerely think Frazier is such a good coach that you could say the same about him?

Does anyone think the Vikings are so untalented that 1-5 was the best possible outcome, no matter who was named their coach after the playoff loss last year?

He actually said that about Don Shula, but the point stands.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

golf333333 wrote:
Krauser wrote:
Bum Phillips said about Bear Bryant: "He can take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n."

Does anyone sincerely think Frazier is such a good coach that you could say the same about him?

Does anyone think the Vikings are so untalented that 1-5 was the best possible outcome, no matter who was named their coach after the playoff loss last year?


Again, statistically speaking we were projected to be one of the worst teams in the NFL this season. No one should be surprised and no one should blame coaching. Last season's 10-6 was 100% Adrian Peterson. No players has single handedly dominated a season like he did in a long time.

Fact of the matter is, there is very very little talent here compared to other NFL teams:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Football_Outsiders_projects_that_Vikings_could_be_worst_team_in_NFL090513

By the same token, that same study has the 7-0 Chiefs as the 4th worst team in the league.
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