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vikesnewcoach11


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
Posts: 1592
Location: Watertown, New York
PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SodakViking wrote:
golf333333 wrote:
vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
I agree Arknad, very good point. The coaching staff should be blamed for 95% of this debacle because Spielman puts the talent in front of these guys and they're stupid enough to waste it and put these players in difficult positions.

A quote from The Bronx Tale: "My Dad always says, there's nothing worse in life than wasted talent"

^Our coaching staff should watch that movie. Laughing


Blaming the coaching is such a tin-man fallacy. These guys got you to the playoffs last year against all odds.


Except Adrian Peterson got us to the playoffs.

Quote:

I agree they have made some questionable decisions but it's not their fault.

You blame the coaches for development? This is the NFL, development is highly overrated. Either you have it, or you don't. This isn't college. How can you really say this team has talent? It's laughable.


uhh...I would say the NFL is all about development and how you use your players (schemes).

Quote:


Lets look at some examples of people you guys love who are terrible:

Kalil: Dude has graded out horribly this year, and it shows on the field. You're really going to use the Pro Bowl argument? An injured and awful Jeff Saturday made it over John Sullivan. It means literally nothing.


Kalil will be fine. He played much better last year, but the whole unit played much better than this year. Claiborne hasn't looked that great, and Blackmon never sees the field.
Quote:

Greenway: Are you serious? Him, and all of our other linebackers have been disgustingly bad this year. Greenway is fine running straight downhill, but sideline to sideline and in coverage it's almost laughable how bad he's been this year.

Secondary: Outside of Harrison Smith, there isn't a single other player who would start in the NFL.


uh...what? THIS is laughable.

Quote:

To blame this on coaching is fine to an extent, but to say they have been given any talent is a joke. We have no quarterback, one of the worst offensive lines in football, a defense who gets zero pressure, the worst linebackers in the NFL, and a bottom 5 secondary. And that's on coaching? Give me a break.


so, if we have no talent, how did we get to the playoffs last year? Peterson got us there the last half, but you have also have to be able to block, unlike they're doing this year, and be able to stop teams on defense, which they aren't doing this year.

The talent disappeared after another draft and little turnover? What happened if it's not the coaches?


This sums up pretty much everything I was going to say to you golf. Don't sit there and say that these coaches helped us get to the playoffs. That drives me crazy. 28 got us there plain and simple. Just like he got Frerotte and Jackson there in 08.

Also with all this "we have no talent" crap....I would say we have more talent this year than last year.

QB- pretty much the same as last year
RB- same, he's still underutilized in my eyes.
FB- same
WR- more talent now by adding Jennings and Patterson, and having a healthy Simpson. Don't even mention harvin because we went on a 4 game win streak WITHOUT him and he only played half the year.
TE- same, Rudolph is wayyyy underutilized this year
OL- same, minus Schwartz but who cares
DL- added Floyd
LB- I'd rather have Brinkley in there in place of Mitchell right now
CB- lost Winfield which I admit was a killer but add Rhodes which helps somewhat
Safety- same

I'm not getting into ST. But as you can see, we make the playoffs last year with pretty much the same guys and adding 3 first rounders and Greg Jennings. If anything, you would think that makes our team better but instead it got much worse and it comes down to poor coaching
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golf333333


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
This sums up pretty much everything I was going to say to you golf. Don't sit there and say that these coaches helped us get to the playoffs. That drives me crazy. 28 got us there plain and simple. Just like he got Frerotte and Jackson there in 08.

Also with all this "we have no talent" crap....I would say we have more talent this year than last year.

QB- pretty much the same as last year
worse. awful GM can't decide who his guy is
RB- same, he's still underutilized in my eyes.
Peterson still best ever, but a year older
FB- same
year older, Spielman's picks haven't worked out here
WR- more talent now by adding Jennings and Patterson, and having a healthy Simpson. Don't even mention harvin because we went on a 4 game win streak WITHOUT him and he only played half the year.
We got rid of one of the top 10 WRs in football, overpaid Jennings, Patterson is raw. No.
TE- same, Rudolph is wayyyy underutilized this year
One decent TE in an offense that needs 2
OL- same, minus Schwartz but who cares
Same awful players, seeing their flaws now that Peterson isn't god mode. statistics show how bad these guys are
DL- added Floyd
added Floyd, every other player on the tail end of their career. Are you seeing the trend here? all our impact players are aging with zero viable replacements.
LB- I'd rather have Brinkley in there in place of Mitchell right now
somehow our worst unit last year got even worse. One average player here, the rest all very below average
CB- lost Winfield which I admit was a killer but add Rhodes which helps somewhat
got significantly worse. SIGNIFICANTLY.
Safety- same
same starters, but Smith down once again shows that this team has drafted zero depth. look at the Packers. Hate them with all the venom in the world, but their guys go down and they don't miss a beat. They are truly "next man up". We haven't drafted well enough to be a next man up type team

I'm not getting into ST. But as you can see, we make the playoffs last year with pretty much the same guys and adding 3 first rounders and Greg Jennings. If anything, you would think that makes our team better but instead it got much worse and it comes down to poor coaching
Note: teams add picks EVERY YEAR. Not everyone can get better. Lost Harvin and Winfield, huge losses. Cut Kluwe for Locke who has been terrible. I don't see how you continue to logically make your arguments, they are brutal.



You literally just said that Peterson was the only reason we got to the playoffs....this is quite possibly the worst argument I have ever seen. You go on to say that we got to the playoffs because of one guy's historic season, then argue that there's talent all over the board? There isn't. You can't compare this year's team to last year's team after saying it was a 1 man show.

I'm going to guess you're in high school or college, am I correct? Note: when you try to make an argument, the worst possible thing to do is make your leading not only contradict your point, but have nothing to do with the rest of your argument. I used to be the same way.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore because that's not the point of this board or post, and because it's akin to arguing with a child.

EDIT: Fixed quote formatting
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disaacs


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No team gets to the playoffs solely on the basis of 1 person. This isn't the NBA.
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swiss_vike


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah golf, that was so mature.

You mention the Packers and how great their depth is. To me, that's a testament of good coaching. Coaching is not how great you make the most talented (the greater the talent, the less coaching is needed), it's how you make the average and below average capable. This, of course, has it's limits, because no coach is carving Manning out of Tebow.

You need both, good talent and good coaching, but with bad coaching no amount of talent will help you in football.
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since72


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think golf makes some interesting points.

Our "best" cornerback was let go this year for salary cap reasons and where is he now? Starting for which team?

Interesting debate. How would our players fare with other teams?

I've been a fan of Spielman, but I really don't know. Frazier is so out of touch with reality, he was saying after the Giants game they were "one play" from winning the game. GM, coaches, players. Everybody gets some blame when you're 1-5. Anyone want to throw Zygi in the mix? He's the one hiring the coach.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Focus the topic of the debate on the GM(s), do not discuss or call out other posters
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twslhs20


Joined: 28 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the end of the day players have execute. They aren't at major key positions. I believe that is why Musgrave has shrunk his play book.

Everyone called for Bevell's head multiple times with Jackson until Farve prove it wasn't him. People want to place blame on the coached because they want to feel like the guy drafting the team isn't a complete idiot.

FA don't want to come here, so Spielman gives out big contacts to awful players like Carlson and Loadholt like they are candy. Even Jenning contract was a bit much. He cut a standup guy like Winny without so much as a phone call to him first.

I think the coach staff is bad, but to say it is 95% on them, and next to nothing on Spielman or the players is a flat joke.
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Eric dunn


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry Angelo anyone? Laughing

of course im kidding, lets be real Spielman isnt going anywhere. 2 drafts, 5 first round picks. And has also had some late rounders that have stuck with the team and have potential. He has given the coaching staff talent, but they just have no clue. Cordarrelle Patterson would be putting up BIG numbers right now if he was playing in Dal, NE, Den, GB, Det, or NO. He is a special talent, you can see it when he plays. But Musgrave doesnt know how to get him the ball beyond the line of scrimmage. As he didnt with Percy.

People will say ahh Spielman has just overlooked getting interior oline, LBs, good DBs, and cant find a franchise QB. Well the guy has only been in charge fully for 2 years with this team, and it was a trainwreck when he took over. He has addressed alot of positions where we were very weak at. Rebuilding cant just happen in one offseason. You cant just plug all of your holes in one season. A few years ago people were screaming bloody murder for a new Left Tackle cause we needed on, and what does he do? Selects LT Matt Kalil, after pulling off a nifty trade. And everyone was sick of the atrocious safteys we had playing back there, so what does he do? Takes STUD safety Harrison Smith. Then finishes off the draft by taking Robinson, Wright, Childs, WALSH, and Cole. All of whom have potential or in Walsh's case are great, which is about all you can ask for with late picks.

Last year evvveryone wanted a new WR core, and Spiel brought in two of the best playmakers available in Fa and the draft. While also drafting BPA in Rhodes and Floyd. Whom should be studs. Then adding guys like Hodges, Mauti and Baca. Who all could eventually start.

As for the QB situation, its almost impossible to find a true franchise QB unless you have a top 2 pick, get lucky on a 2nd/3rd rounder or make a whacky trade. So id say Rick is doing the best he can with what he's got. He is addressing the weaknesses, and its the coaches job to use the talent thats been given to them. Mark my words, if we get a legit HC, OC, and DC next season. We are going to see players blossum.
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twslhs20


Joined: 28 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Musgrave isn't the one throwing passes to our "talented" WR core. QB is going to hold us down until we find one. We don't have any on the roster.

I'll give you Patterson only getting manufactured touches. That's a little sad.

However, until Speilmanm makes a bold move to get us a top QB, it won't matter who the OC is.
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Eric dunn


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

twslhs20 wrote:
Musgrave isn't the one throwing passes to our "talented" WR core. QB is going to hold us down until we find one. We don't have any on the roster.

I'll give you Patterson only getting manufactured touches. That's a little sad.

However, until Speilmanm makes a bold move to get us a top QB, it won't matter who the OC is.


This will be there year, UNLESS Ponder or Freeman play out of their minds. Highly unlikely.
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would consider signing Freeman and starting him two weeks later, bold

Just not the good kind.
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British


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric dunn wrote:
Jerry Angelo anyone? Laughing

of course im kidding, lets be real Spielman isnt going anywhere. 2 drafts, 5 first round picks. And has also had some late rounders that have stuck with the team and have potential. He has given the coaching staff talent, but they just have no clue. Cordarrelle Patterson would be putting up BIG numbers right now if he was playing in Dal, NE, Den, GB, Det, or NO. He is a special talent, you can see it when he plays. But Musgrave doesnt know how to get him the ball beyond the line of scrimmage. As he didnt with Percy.

People will say ahh Spielman has just overlooked getting interior oline, LBs, good DBs, and cant find a franchise QB. Well the guy has only been in charge fully for 2 years with this team, and it was a trainwreck when he took over. He has addressed alot of positions where we were very weak at. Rebuilding cant just happen in one offseason. You cant just plug all of your holes in one season. A few years ago people were screaming bloody murder for a new Left Tackle cause we needed on, and what does he do? Selects LT Matt Kalil, after pulling off a nifty trade. And everyone was sick of the atrocious safteys we had playing back there, so what does he do? Takes STUD safety Harrison Smith. Then finishes off the draft by taking Robinson, Wright, Childs, WALSH, and Cole. All of whom have potential or in Walsh's case are great, which is about all you can ask for with late picks.

Last year evvveryone wanted a new WR core, and Spiel brought in two of the best playmakers available in Fa and the draft. While also drafting BPA in Rhodes and Floyd. Whom should be studs. Then adding guys like Hodges, Mauti and Baca. Who all could eventually start.

As for the QB situation, its almost impossible to find a true franchise QB unless you have a top 2 pick, get lucky on a 2nd/3rd rounder or make a whacky trade. So id say Rick is doing the best he can with what he's got. He is addressing the weaknesses, and its the coaches job to use the talent thats been given to them. Mark my words, if we get a legit HC, OC, and DC next season. We are going to see players blossum.


I agree with much of this.

Interesting question about where franchise QBs can be found.

Of the 32 current NFL starters these 9 franchise QBs were gettable without a top 10 pick.

Flacco - round 1/pick 18
Cutler - 1/11
Romo - undrafted
Rodgers - 1/24
Brady - 6/199
Brees - 2/32
Roethlisberger - 1/11
Kaepernick - 2/36
Wilson - 3/75

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_starting_quarterbacks
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Eric dunn


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of those QBs. Romo, Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Kaep, and Wilson are the only players we had a chance to get without trading up.

Nobody thought Romo or Brady were gonna be good, hints the draft status. When we passed on Arod and Brees, I THINK we had a QB in place. (Culpepper) So that leaves 2 QBs in Kaep and Wilson, one seen as a project and the other seen as a potential backup/future starter.

Just trying to justify passing on Rodgers for two players that are out of the NFL already. Crying or Very sad
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vikesnewcoach11


Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

golf333333 wrote:
vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
This sums up pretty much everything I was going to say to you golf. Don't sit there and say that these coaches helped us get to the playoffs. That drives me crazy. 28 got us there plain and simple. Just like he got Frerotte and Jackson there in 08.

Also with all this "we have no talent" crap....I would say we have more talent this year than last year.

QB- pretty much the same as last year
worse. awful GM can't decide who his guy is
RB- same, he's still underutilized in my eyes.
Peterson still best ever, but a year older
FB- same
year older, Spielman's picks haven't worked out here
WR- more talent now by adding Jennings and Patterson, and having a healthy Simpson. Don't even mention harvin because we went on a 4 game win streak WITHOUT him and he only played half the year.
We got rid of one of the top 10 WRs in football, overpaid Jennings, Patterson is raw. No.
TE- same, Rudolph is wayyyy underutilized this year
One decent TE in an offense that needs 2
OL- same, minus Schwartz but who cares
Same awful players, seeing their flaws now that Peterson isn't god mode. statistics show how bad these guys are
DL- added Floyd
added Floyd, every other player on the tail end of their career. Are you seeing the trend here? all our impact players are aging with zero viable replacements.
LB- I'd rather have Brinkley in there in place of Mitchell right now
somehow our worst unit last year got even worse. One average player here, the rest all very below average
CB- lost Winfield which I admit was a killer but add Rhodes which helps somewhat
got significantly worse. SIGNIFICANTLY.
Safety- same
same starters, but Smith down once again shows that this team has drafted zero depth. look at the Packers. Hate them with all the venom in the world, but their guys go down and they don't miss a beat. They are truly "next man up". We haven't drafted well enough to be a next man up type team

I'm not getting into ST. But as you can see, we make the playoffs last year with pretty much the same guys and adding 3 first rounders and Greg Jennings. If anything, you would think that makes our team better but instead it got much worse and it comes down to poor coaching
Note: teams add picks EVERY YEAR. Not everyone can get better. Lost Harvin and Winfield, huge losses. Cut Kluwe for Locke who has been terrible. I don't see how you continue to logically make your arguments, they are brutal.



You literally just said that Peterson was the only reason we got to the playoffs....this is quite possibly the worst argument I have ever seen. You go on to say that we got to the playoffs because of one guy's historic season, then argue that there's talent all over the board? There isn't. You can't compare this year's team to last year's team after saying it was a 1 man show.

I'm going to guess you're in high school or college, am I correct? Note: when you try to make an argument, the worst possible thing to do is make your leading not only contradict your point, but have nothing to do with the rest of your argument. I used to be the same way.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore because that's not the point of this board or post, and because it's akin to arguing with a child.

EDIT: Fixed quote formatting


^Maybe thats why you should continue to NOT post on here.

Funny how you're in that 5% of people in this thread that blame this on Spielman. If you dont see talent on this roster and can admit coaching is our biggest problem than you are clearly blind. Just about everyone can admit AP brought us to the playoffs. Did other guys help at times? Sure.

-You said the "GM" cant pick a QB but in one of Fraziers last press conferences he said that he himself and the coaching staff made that decision to start Freeman. Not Spielman. You should actually watch them...maybe you'll have more knowledge on the subject. I would love to hear what your "genius" plan at QB would be this year pal.

-Peterson being a year older has nothing to do with this. His play isnt declining at this stage of his career.

-This one kills me the most. You complain about Harvin but how's he doing bud??? He hasnt played a game since week 9 of last season and was a cancer so what good was he doing us? If we currently had him, he still wouldnt have seen the field this year. And you're saying my argument is ridiculous???? This guys hasnt even been on the field this year and didnt help us go on a 4 game win streak last year. But yeah I would love to be paying him ridiculous money right now to basically rehab. Rolling Eyes

-When your RB has a record breaking season, why would you make OL a top priority?? There were bigger holes on this team at the time. What are you going to do....release 2 O-lineman after your RB nearly breaks the single season record or draft one with one of those first picks when we needed a DT, WR, and CB. Spielman assessed OG as quick as he could in the draft. Also would love to hear your "genius" plan on that one.

-Is Griffen near the end of his career? What about Robison (is 30 but still a solid veteran)? Fred Evans? No, No, and No. He then adds Floyd to the mix. That right there might be the starting line for us next year, depending on what he does for NT. Thats still a good defensive line.

-The LB's werent good last year and they arent much different this year. He also assessed this as quick as he could in the draft

-He drafts Rhodes to help out our d-backfield but it still hurts not having Winfield in the slot I agree. What else do you want here??? A 7 million dollar a year guy?? Winfield shouldnt have been let go but with his contract it would have been tough to keep him.

-Sendejo has actually been doing pretty good filling in for Smith so I'm fine with that.

Rick Spielman doesnt tell Leslie Frazier who to start and how to run this offense, defense and special teams. All he does is provide the TALENT for the coaches to utilize and what do they do??? Waste it.

-They arent giving Peterson the carries he should get
-They are trying to force our QBs to look good by having them throw 100 times
-They dont utilize Greg Jennings and Cordarralle Patterson like they should. CP is easily the 2nd most explosive player on this team behind AP. Jennings is sure handed but for some odd reason our main focus is Jerome Simpson. Just awful.
-When Rudolph has Drew Brees throwing to him in the pro bowl, (granted its the pro bowl but still) he looks like the next Jimmy Graham and wins MVP. Now we're throwing to him on check downs 4 times a game if that
-They dont look to utilize either of our rookie LB's in place of the awful Marvin Mitchell.
-They have Josh Robinson on the outside covering teams better WR's instead of Rhodes. Another awful decision.
-Oh and did I mention our ST coordinator has half a brain and allows Devin Hester and the Browns special teams beat us. Clear stupidity.
-I wont even get into how bad Bill Musgrave is.

I mean these are all just horrid, horrid coaching decisions. Spielman puts these guys in front of this coaching staff and they dont utilize them like they should and in turn, we're playing awful because of it.

P.S. Im actually 26 years old and have been following the Vikings my whole life. So no you're not correct....once again. Oh and the "child" remarks??? Come on man...you're sitting behind a computer screen. Are you sure you arent in high school or college? Lets be civil here.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

back to the original topic of the thread, who is an available GM candidate that would be an upgrade from Spielman?
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