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Do you trust Rick Spielman to draft the next QB?
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Do you trust Rick Spielman to draft the next QB?
Yes
60%
 60%  [ 30 ]
No
22%
 22%  [ 11 ]
Depends on Freeman
18%
 18%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 50

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milanb


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 6132
Location: Ottawa, Ontario
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SemperFeist wrote:

Jackson was playing much worse than Ponder that's not even debatable.


Actually it is debatable.

Ponder has thrown for more yards but he has also turned the ball over a lot more.

Jackson had one INT and one lost fumble through two games in 2008. Ponder has five INTs and two lost fumbles in three games this year.

Jackson was also missing his only good receiver (Sidney Rice), and was benched after narrow losses to two of the league's best teams (Green Bay and Indy). I believe Shiancoe dropped an easy TD pass in the Indy game, which turned out to be the difference in the game.

In any event, the issue here is Rick Spielman as GM. And it's Rick Spielman who went out and signed Josh Freeman in mid-season with the intent of handing Freeman the starter's job, basically pulling the rug out from Christian Ponder's feet.
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disaacs


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Jackson was also missing his only good receiver (Sidney Rice), and was benched after narrow losses to two of the league's best teams (Green Bay and Indy). I believe Shiancoe dropped an easy TD pass in the Indy game, which turned out to be the difference in the game.


I was there. People may have forgot that Tarvaris could have and should have put the game away, but his failure to ever get TDs cost them. Instead of being up 15-0, they should have been up by over 30. Tarvaris' inability to do anything left Peyton within striking distance...and Adrian ran for more yards than Tarvaris passed for. To me, it's not debatable. Tarvaris was worse...although, this season, Ponder closed that gap.
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milanb


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
milanb wrote:
Jackson was also missing his only good receiver (Sidney Rice), and was benched after narrow losses to two of the league's best teams (Green Bay and Indy). I believe Shiancoe dropped an easy TD pass in the Indy game, which turned out to be the difference in the game.


I was there. People may have forgot that Tarvaris could have and should have put the game away, but his failure to ever get TDs cost them. Instead of being up 15-0, they should have been up by over 30. Tarvaris' inability to do anything left Peyton within striking distance...and Adrian ran for more yards than Tarvaris passed for. To me, it's not debatable. Tarvaris was worse...although, this season, Ponder closed that gap.


Well, it's largely immaterial for the purposes of this thread.

Spielman's the one who drafted Ponder in 2011, Spielman's the one who signed Cassel, and Spielman is the one who threw both of them under the bus with the Freeman signing.

And really, the Freeman signing is an act of desperation. There's no other way to put it. I don't recall the last time an NFL team went out and signed a QB off the street in mid-season and started him ahead of a healthy incumbent starter and healthy backup. It's a tacit admission that entering the 2013 season with Ponder and Cassel as the only QB options was a major, major front office blunder.
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SodakViking


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^when was the last time a quarterback like Josh Freeman was released 4 weeks into the season?
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SemperFeist


Joined: 13 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
It's a tacit admission that entering the 2013 season with Ponder and Cassel as the only QB options was a major, major front office blunder.

Or it says that there was no better option going into the 2013 season, and once an option presented itself, the General Manager made the move.
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Boda


Joined: 21 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SemperFeist wrote:
milanb wrote:
It's a tacit admission that entering the 2013 season with Ponder and Cassel as the only QB options was a major, major front office blunder.

Or it says that there was no better option going into the 2013 season, and once an option presented itself, the General Manager made the move.

I think this is more spot on than anything else
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PrplChilPill


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SemperFeist wrote:
milanb wrote:
It's a tacit admission that entering the 2013 season with Ponder and Cassel as the only QB options was a major, major front office blunder.

Or it says that there was no better option going into the 2013 season, and once an option presented itself, the General Manager made the move.


which has actually been the case for some time......unless you knew Russell Wilson was going to be this good, or even Kaep. Really, there have not been a lot of good options. There are a lot of teams without good QBs.....there is a pretty limited supply of really good QBs in the world.

oh, can we get off the TJack/Ponder argument.....and just talk about the GM?
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milanb


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boda wrote:
SemperFeist wrote:
milanb wrote:
It's a tacit admission that entering the 2013 season with Ponder and Cassel as the only QB options was a major, major front office blunder.

Or it says that there was no better option going into the 2013 season, and once an option presented itself, the General Manager made the move.

I think this is more spot on than anything else


Hmm, let's see.

Of the 2012 starting QBs who were available this past off season, Alex Smith went to KC, Carson Palmer went to Arizona and Ryan Fitzpatrick went to Tennessee. Any of these guys is a major upgrade over Matt Cassel.

Geno Smith was available in the 2nd Round of the Draft if the Vikings really wanted him (they gave up a lot more to get Cordarrelle Patterson).

I don't agree that there were zero options. I think the Vikings front office simply fooled themselves into thinking that Ponder had turned some sort of corner last December, and that Cassel was a serviceable QB on a bad team in KC.
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swiss_vike


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that on offense, Spielmann really put together a very talented team. Carlson is probably tge worst signing there. But this team is loaded and should play much better than it is. For the offense, i put the blame mainly on the coaches.

On defense, he failed to replace Phat Pat. There's no excuse that someone as pedestrian as guion is still on this team. That's a huge hole right there. He is also responsible for not recoggnizing that Erin, given all aspects, is simply not suited to play the mike...it looks like spielmanb gave thecoaches not alot of choices there....but he drafted Cole and Mauti, who looked good in preseason, and despite the glaring wwakness, our coaches don't adapt. It's a tie there. At db, letting winfield go was just stupid. While the coaches get some blame because of hoe tgey play to the players weaknesses, tge combination of winfiekd abd robinson (clearly his guy) are on him.

Overall i'd give him a slightly above average grade because i'm a firm believer that the right coaching staff would resurrect this franchise.
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Krauser


Joined: 20 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Boda wrote:
SemperFeist wrote:
milanb wrote:
It's a tacit admission that entering the 2013 season with Ponder and Cassel as the only QB options was a major, major front office blunder.

Or it says that there was no better option going into the 2013 season, and once an option presented itself, the General Manager made the move.

I think this is more spot on than anything else


Hmm, let's see.

Of the 2012 starting QBs who were available this past off season, Alex Smith went to KC, Carson Palmer went to Arizona and Ryan Fitzpatrick went to Tennessee. Any of these guys is a major upgrade over Matt Cassel.

Geno Smith was available in the 2nd Round of the Draft if the Vikings really wanted him (they gave up a lot more to get Cordarrelle Patterson).

I don't agree that there were zero options. I think the Vikings front office simply fooled themselves into thinking that Ponder had turned some sort of corner last December, and that Cassel was a serviceable QB on a bad team in KC.


Alex Smith was traded for the #34 pick. He's playing almost exactly as well for KC this year as Ponder played for the Vikings last year: YPA 6.28, 7/4 TD/INT ratio, passer rating of 79, no 300 yard games.

You would be happier with that if we'd traded an early pick for him?

Carson Palmer was traded for a late round pick. He has a 2 year $16M contract, earning double what Cassel will make with $10M guaranteed. His stats in 2013 are no better than Ponder's: 6.55 YPA, 8/13 TD/INT ratio. He's had only 1 game with a passer rating higher than Ponder finished with in 2012 (81) and has a passer rating of 69.5, almost as bad as Ponder in 2013.

You would be happier paying Carson Palmer as the starter this year?

Ryan Fitzpatrick (seriously? as an upgrade on Cassel?) signed for 2 years and $6.5M with the Titans. He has a passer rating of 61.2 (worse than Ponder this year), with 2 TDs 4 INTs and a completion percentage barely above 50%. The Titans lost both of his starts and were so happy with what he did that they rushed Jake Locker back even though he can't run yet.

You'd be happier with Ryan Fitzpatrick?

...

There's no evidence that Spielman had any illusions that Ponder was a sure thing (even though they supported him publicly until they benched him -- that was PR). They did what they could to build up the O-line and improve the WRs, and waited to see if he would develop. Spielman said he'd get 25-30 games to prove himself, and that's what he got. It was a fair chance.

Then they benched Ponder and went to plan B, Cassel. When the chance to sign Freeman unexpectedly came up, they jumped on it (one of 10 teams to try to sign him, must be a lot of desperation around these days).

If Freeman plays well enough that he's worth signing as a long-term starter, so much the better. If not, the team will have a high 1st round pick to try to find a new QB.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the Vikes to have acquired Alex Smith, they would have had to trade the 25th overall pick or a 2nd, 3rd and 4th round pick. Not worth it to me.
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milanb


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Krauser wrote:




Ryan Fitzpatrick (seriously? as an upgrade on Cassel?) signed for 2 years and $6.5M with the Titans. He has a passer rating of 61.2 (worse than Ponder this year), with 2 TDs 4 INTs and a completion percentage barely above 50%. The Titans lost both of his starts and were so happy with what he did that they rushed Jake Locker back even though he can't run yet.

You'd be happier with Ryan Fitzpatrick?



Yes, I'd be happier with Fitzpatrick than Cassel. Not because Fitzpatrick is any good, but because he was way better than Cassel was the last two years. So were Palmer and Alex Smith. And that's just sad.

The Chiefs were 32nd in the NFL in team passing last year. Cassel for his part had 6 TD, 12 INT and a passer rating of 66.7, and he wasn't much better in 2011.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of any of these guys, but Spielman went into the season with the starting QBs of the two worst passing attacks in the NFL last year. The disaster that has unfolded so far at the position was 100% predictable.
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SteelKing728


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spielman or Freeman won't be around next year, so whats it matter?
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PrplChilPill


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A screen?

edit: sorry, wrong thread......

Again, this team just lost to one of the worst teams in NFL history, and people think the GM is awesome at his job? I don't get it.

Lots of players on the roster from recent drafts, but that does not make them good players.....outside of the round 1 guys (three of whom we really know nothing about yet), and Walsh, what does he have to show? Plus, John Carlson....I will never get over that*

*as a fan, I'm totally over it from a really mattering perspective.
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Last edited by PrplChilPill on Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Lil Uno


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This loss was on Spielman/Frazier. Freeman shouldn't have started. The pressure from the front office to get him on the field made it tough for Leslie. However, Leslie fails at having this team prepared.
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