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Do you trust Rick Spielman to draft the next QB?
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Do you trust Rick Spielman to draft the next QB?
Yes
60%
 60%  [ 30 ]
No
22%
 22%  [ 11 ]
Depends on Freeman
18%
 18%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 50

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ktarinze


Joined: 08 Oct 2010
Posts: 1365
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd give him one more shot.
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disaacs


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
Of course you can trust things you don't have control over. I have no idea where that statement comes from. Do you trust your doctor? Do you trust the teachers of your kids? Do you trust your neighbor not to burn your house down? I really don't know what you are saying there, disaacs.


I'm confused by your confusion. I do have control over my doctor. If I don't trust him/her, I find someone else. If I don't trust my kids' teachers, I can do something about it. The same with the neighbor.

I probably didn't word it very well, but I don't think trust has anything to do with what the OP was trying to get at with the question. Trust implies that my fandom/enjoyment of the team is determined by the perceived relationship between Rick Spielman and myself...that whether I can rely on him to draft a good QB is going to determine whether I will support him or the team or not. It's a jaded question.

A more fair question is to ask whether Rick Spielman should be given another opportunity to draft a QB, not whether I trust him to draft one.
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since72


Joined: 16 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spielman has brought a lot of talent on to this team, especially in the past two years when he had full control of the draft. He's drafted five players in the first round in two years and all five look like solid starters.

He picked up Cassel and Freeman for pocket change and gave us some depth at QB. Last year, we had Ponder and Webb (and MBT on the practice squad).

I don't think the problem is Spielman. I think the problem is coaching.
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milanb


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:


Look at it this way, if you were a Ravens' fan in 2005, would you have questioned whether you trust Ozzie Newsome to draft another QB after having his first highly drafted QB fail miserably (his first draft pick was Kyle Boller)? He was given another opportunity and got it right the 2nd time around, because Newsome was the right guy to be GM. Therefore, I think the only reason why you'd ask the question on whether to trust Spielman is that you believe that he's not the right guy. That's a fair question to ask. I personally believe he is, because he's done enough things right to let the process play itself out.



I believe Joe Flacco was drafted in 2008. That was five years after Kyle Boller, who was basically Brian Billick's guy. Plus the Ravens still had an elite defence. QB was arguably the team's only glaring weakness. Flacco was a bit of a stretch with the 18th overall pick but only because he was making the leap from I-AA. His physical skillset was in another dimension compared to Ponder.

Spielman by comparison used the 12th overall pick on a guy who would have been a 3rd rounder almost any other year and wasn't a major upgrade over Joe Webb anyway. And Spielman had way more holes to fill on his roster than did Ozzie Newsome in 2008. Then Spielman pulled a Matt Millen by refusing to admit that the QB he drafted was a waste of space, and went into the 2013 season with Ponder and Cassel as his only options at QB. And as part of his effort to make Ponder look good, Spielman traded up into the 1st round to get a WR when the team had an aging DL and gaping holes to fill at LB and S.
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disaacs


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Spielman by comparison used the 12th overall pick on a guy who would have been a 3rd rounder almost any other year


I don't believe that's a fair argument, because at absolute worst, he was listed as a high 2nd rd pick. True, maybe he shouldn't have been drafted at #12...but neither should Blaine Gabbert have been taken #10 (having watched him at Mizzou, he never should have been taken until the late 20s at the earliest).
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Last edited by disaacs on Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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PrplChilPill


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

since72 wrote:
Spielman has brought a lot of talent on to this team, especially in the past two years when he had full control of the draft. He's drafted five players in the first round in two years and all five look like solid starters.

He picked up Cassel and Freeman for pocket change and gave us some depth at QB. Last year, we had Ponder and Webb (and MBT on the practice squad).

I don't think the problem is Spielman. I think the problem is coaching.


Not sure how drafting first round guys makes you good.....what makes you good is past round 1. And, while it is nice to have Walsh, I'm talking OGs, LB, DL, TE.....where are the good/great picks past round 1? Ellison is not playing this year, Robinson looks lost, where are these guys?
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SemperFeist


Joined: 13 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PrplChilPill wrote:
since72 wrote:
Spielman has brought a lot of talent on to this team, especially in the past two years when he had full control of the draft. He's drafted five players in the first round in two years and all five look like solid starters.

He picked up Cassel and Freeman for pocket change and gave us some depth at QB. Last year, we had Ponder and Webb (and MBT on the practice squad).

I don't think the problem is Spielman. I think the problem is coaching.


Not sure how drafting first round guys makes you good.....what makes you good is past round 1. And, while it is nice to have Walsh, I'm talking OGs, LB, DL, TE.....where are the good/great picks past round 1? Ellison is not playing this year, Robinson looks lost, where are these guys?

Why does Spielman get the blame for a player's lack of development? Isn't that the coach's job?

I will never understand why the GM is given credit or blame for a player's success or failure.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ellison was injured in the Bears game, and has only just recovered enough to play sparingly last week.
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milanb


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

disaacs wrote:
milanb wrote:
Spielman by comparison used the 12th overall pick on a guy who would have been a 3rd rounder almost any other year


I don't believe that's a fair argument, because at absolute worst, he was listed as a high 2nd rd pick. True, maybe he shouldn't have been drafted at #12...but neither should Blaine Gabbert have been taken #10 (having watched him at Mizzou, he never should have been taken until the late 20s at the earliest).


The NFL Network gave Ponder a 6.5, which is a 3rd Round grade:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/christian-ponder?id=2495215#tab=1

Trent Dilfer took a lot of heat in this forum because of his post-Draft remarks on Ponder but Mike Mayock, Brian Billick, Michael Lombardi et al on the NFL Network were saying basically the same thing: Ponder was a workout warrior. A guy who looked like a mid-round talent based on his game tape but saw his stock shoot up at the Scouting Combine.
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Last edited by milanb on Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SemperFeist


Joined: 13 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
Spielman by comparison used the 12th overall pick on a guy who would have been a 3rd rounder almost any other year and wasn't a major upgrade over Joe Webb anyway. And Spielman had way more holes to fill on his roster than did Ozzie Newsome in 2008. Then Spielman pulled a Matt Millen by refusing to admit that the QB he drafted was a waste of space, and went into the 2013 season with Ponder and Cassel as his only options at QB. And as part of his effort to make Ponder look good, Spielman traded up into the 1st round to get a WR when the team had an aging DL and gaping holes to fill at LB and S.

The Vikings gave up on Ponder after 29 starts, that's about as fast as any GM/coach have given up on a quarterback. Not to mention Ponder improved drastically over the last 4 games of the season, having the best game of his career in his last game, so why wouldn't the team give him another shot? As for the receiver in the first. Are you kidding me? 99% of Vikings' fans were screaming for a wide receiver and said it was the team's biggest need. Now you're upset because he made an aggressive move and added a dangerous and talented young receiver? He used the team's first pick to draft a defensive lineman to help the aging line, he drafted two linebackers later in the draft, and with the way that Sanford played in 2012, safety was not seen as a gaping hole.
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milanb


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SemperFeist wrote:

The Vikings gave up on Ponder after 29 starts, that's about as fast as any GM/coach have given up on a quarterback. Not to mention Ponder improved drastically over the last 4 games of the season, having the best game of his career in his last game, so why wouldn't the team give him another shot? As for the receiver in the first. Are you kidding me? 99% of Vikings' fans were screaming for a wide receiver and said it was the team's biggest need. Now you're upset because he made an aggressive move and added a dangerous and talented young receiver? He used the team's first pick to draft a defensive lineman to help the aging line, he drafted two linebackers later in the draft, and with the way that Sanford played in 2012, safety was not seen as a gaping hole.


The Vikings benched Tarvaris Jackson two games into his 3rd season, and Jackson at the time was not playing anywhere near as poorly Ponder has been so far this year. I don't agree that Ponder hasn't been given a chance.

As for the Patterson pick, the Vikings had already gone out and signed Greg Jennings, Jerome Simpson was healthy again, and Jarius Wright was a year older. The need to add another WR this year was not that great.
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PrplChilPill


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SemperFeist wrote:
PrplChilPill wrote:
since72 wrote:
Spielman has brought a lot of talent on to this team, especially in the past two years when he had full control of the draft. He's drafted five players in the first round in two years and all five look like solid starters.

He picked up Cassel and Freeman for pocket change and gave us some depth at QB. Last year, we had Ponder and Webb (and MBT on the practice squad).

I don't think the problem is Spielman. I think the problem is coaching.


Not sure how drafting first round guys makes you good.....what makes you good is past round 1. And, while it is nice to have Walsh, I'm talking OGs, LB, DL, TE.....where are the good/great picks past round 1? Ellison is not playing this year, Robinson looks lost, where are these guys?

Why does Spielman get the blame for a player's lack of development? Isn't that the coach's job?

I will never understand why the GM is given credit or blame for a player's success or failure.


coaches can only do so much.....it is mostly about picking the right guy in the first place, imo. Some guys are good football players, some are not, and some are in between. The great GM finds the first ones more often than not.

Though, I do agree, in this case, there is plenty of blame to go around.

Oh, and I agree, WR was 100% not a need once you had signed Jennings. Not like LB and OL and DB, where they clearly had holes. Not a team built to run first, with lots of 3 TE sets.
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SemperFeist


Joined: 13 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

milanb wrote:
SemperFeist wrote:

The Vikings gave up on Ponder after 29 starts, that's about as fast as any GM/coach have given up on a quarterback. Not to mention Ponder improved drastically over the last 4 games of the season, having the best game of his career in his last game, so why wouldn't the team give him another shot? As for the receiver in the first. Are you kidding me? 99% of Vikings' fans were screaming for a wide receiver and said it was the team's biggest need. Now you're upset because he made an aggressive move and added a dangerous and talented young receiver? He used the team's first pick to draft a defensive lineman to help the aging line, he drafted two linebackers later in the draft, and with the way that Sanford played in 2012, safety was not seen as a gaping hole.


The Vikings benched Tarvaris Jackson two games into his 3rd season, and Jackson at the time was not playing anywhere near as poorly Ponder has been so far this year. I don't agree that Ponder hasn't been given a chance.

As for the Patterson pick, the Vikings had already gone out and signed Greg Jennings, Jerome Simpson was healthy again, and Jarius Wright was a year older. The need to add another WR this year was not that great.

Jackson was playing much worse than Ponder that's not even debatable. And I never said Ponder wasn't given a chance, of course he was, but he also played his best at the end so of course the team was going to give him another chance.

As for the receivers, no one had any faith in Simpson, most people were upset when Spielman resigned him, and Wright was never seen as a starter. Hell, most of the mock drafts on this site had the team drafting Patterson as early as their first pick, and if not Patterson had the team at least drafting a wide receiver in the 2nd round.

Stop using hindsight and remember what was going on during the actual decisions.
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Last edited by SemperFeist on Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jackson was playing just as bad as Ponder was at the beginning of LAST season.

Then, he did exactly the same thing that Ponder did and had his best games of his career near the end of the 2008 season.
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ktarinze


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
Jackson was playing just as bad as Ponder was at the beginning of LAST season.

Then, he did exactly the same thing that Ponder did and had his best games of his career near the end of the 2008 season.


Yep, we pretty much had the exact same thing. Both are very similar to each other.
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