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Cowboys reportedly $31 million over 2014 cap.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Sportrac has us at 144. The cap last season was 123. Assuming it goes up ever a modest amount, we are looking at being 17-8m over. Add in the rookie pool and its ~23ish mil over.

Ware and Romo account for ~27m alone in salary. Just restructuring those alone puts us near/totally under the cap.


Didn't Romo just sign an extension? What are those restructures going to look like so that you can get rid of ~$20 million in cap space?


the cba allows for a signing bonus to be spread over 5 years. Dallas does their linger term (7 year) contracts so that the year two and three salaries can be converted into a bonus. It will reduce the cap hit of their salary by 80%. Restructuring those two alone will give us around 20m
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nagahide13 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Were more like 15-20m over. Romo and Ware restructure and we are under.


I won't bother going through all the numbers. Why? Because half of you are too ignorant to the cap to understand it (not being mean, its complicated and hard to understand). The other half of you already realize that this is highly over exaggerated.

this these is useless.


I mean, it's not something that's crippling. I fully expect Dallas to be at or just under the cap next year with a fairly intact team without doing much of anything but shedding bad contracts of useless players and restructuring/extending some core guys.

It's certainly not harmless either. It puts significant limitations on the team short term, and spreads out quite a bit of that damage in later years. If you don't think Dallas is a contender right now, this makes it harder for them to become one with their current roster. It delays a rebuild. That's the camp I'm in... I don't think the current roster has the potential to be elite. They're certainly not bad, but this iteration of the Cowboys won't ever break into contender status in my eyes.

If I were a Dallas fan, I'd want at least a subtle rebuild. That obviously isn't going to happen right now, and what the FO will have to do to get under the cap next year will sort of guarantee that the Dallas team we see right now will be around for a while longer.


I agree entirely with the first part if your post.


as for the second part, I disagree. The cowboys have replaced ~85% of the roster since Garrett took over two years ago. We did rebuild. The whole team is young and new except for Ware, witten and Romo.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
BaltimoreTerp wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Sportrac has us at 144. The cap last season was 123. Assuming it goes up ever a modest amount, we are looking at being 17-8m over. Add in the rookie pool and its ~23ish mil over.

Ware and Romo account for ~27m alone in salary. Just restructuring those alone puts us near/totally under the cap.


Didn't Romo just sign an extension? What are those restructures going to look like so that you can get rid of ~$20 million in cap space?


the cba allows for a signing bonus to be spread over 5 years. Dallas does their linger term (7 year) contracts so that the year two and three salaries can be converted into a bonus. It will reduce the cap hit of their salary by 80%. Restructuring those two alone will give us around 20m


So, let's break this out...

If you were to restructure Romo to turn his 13.5m salary in 2014 to be, let's just say $1m, and turn the $12.5m into a SB, you could spread it over the next 5 years, or $1.5m more into each year. So, you'd add that $12.5m to the $20m remaining on his SB pro-ration so get $32.5m over the next 5 years, or $6.5m/year. Is that correct?

So, his cap hits would look like so (rough estimates due to rounding)...

2014: $21.7m -> $10.8m ($1m salary + $6.5m SB + $3.3m other bonuses)
2015: $25.3m -> $26.7m (same as normal but + $1.5m more SB)
2016: $15.1m -> $16.6m (same as normal but + $1.5m more SB)
2017: $19m -> $20.5m (same as normal but + $1.5m more SB)
2018: $19.5m -> $26m ($19m salary + new $6.5m SB pro-ration)
2019: $20.5m base salary

Does that look correct to you?
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
BaltimoreTerp wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Sportrac has us at 144. The cap last season was 123. Assuming it goes up ever a modest amount, we are looking at being 17-8m over. Add in the rookie pool and its ~23ish mil over.

Ware and Romo account for ~27m alone in salary. Just restructuring those alone puts us near/totally under the cap.


Didn't Romo just sign an extension? What are those restructures going to look like so that you can get rid of ~$20 million in cap space?


the cba allows for a signing bonus to be spread over 5 years. Dallas does their linger term (7 year) contracts so that the year two and three salaries can be converted into a bonus. It will reduce the cap hit of their salary by 80%. Restructuring those two alone will give us around 20m


So, let's break this out...

If you were to restructure Romo to turn his 13.5m salary in 2014 to be, let's just say $1m, and turn the $12.5m into a SB, you could spread it over the next 5 years, or $1.5m more into each year. So, you'd add that $12.5m to the $20m remaining on his SB pro-ration so get $32.5m over the next 5 years, or $6.5m/year. Is that correct?

So, his cap hits would look like so (rough estimates due to rounding)...

2014: $21.7m -> $10.8m ($1m salary + $6.5m SB + $3.3m other bonuses)
2015: $25.3m -> $26.7m (same as normal but + $1.5m more SB)
2016: $15.1m -> $16.6m (same as normal but + $1.5m more SB)
2017: $19m -> $20.5m (same as normal but + $1.5m more SB)
2018: $19.5m -> $26m ($19m salary + new $6.5m SB pro-ration)
2019: $20.5m base salary

Does that look correct to you?


I dont have the numbers in front of me - but a couple notes just by looking at what you did:

If you use 1M base and spread 12.5 its 2.5M/year for the next 5 years.

Not sure what your doing on 2018. He is already being paid the first year of his bonus this year. It should end 2017.

Romo will also get restructured next year; Just as an FYI. It will set it up were it will cost us ~10M if we cut him in 2018 (~30+ cap hit - 20M Salary). There will be a fairly large savings in 2019 to cut him. Of course, thats excluding the idea of cutting him June 1.

*That is going off memory from looking at it last year*
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
*Some historical perspective is also due. In 2011, Dallas faced “cap hell.’’ A “head-on collision with financial disaster.’’ Yessir, a “train wreck.’’ They were $18 million over the cap in July 2011. But … they never collided with a train. The Cowboys released Roy Williams, Marion Barber and Leonard Davis and restructured the contracts of Tony Romo, DeMarcus Ware and Miles Austin. Those moves allowed the re-signing of/extensions for players like Jason Witten, Doug Free and Jason Hatcher.

*In 2012? “Cap hell’’ once again was predicted due to $30 million of dead money. The how-to’s were so tricky that even owner Jerry Jones himself admitted to fearing “Armageddon.’’ But exec Stephen Jones oversaw moves that eventually allowed the over-the-cap Cowboys to sign Brandon Carr to a $50 million, five-year deal.

Not only was “Armageddon’’ avoided, but the Cowboys actually entered the season $12.6 mil under the cap.
*In 2013? Same song, different verse. The Cowboys started $20 million over the cap. But by the time the season arrived, they’d re-upped Romo and Sean Lee and left themselves plenty of room to also sign Brian Waters. (Oh, and I’m told they’ve also touched base with kicker Dan Bailey, with plans to retain him as well.)

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/10/21/is-alleged-cowboys-2014-cap-is-going-to-be-a-train-wreck/

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Dr. Philly


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dallas should be fine. They don't really need to spend in FA.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:

I dont have the numbers in front of me - but a couple notes just by looking at what you did:

If you use 1M base and spread 12.5 its 2.5M/year for the next 5 years.


Math fail on my part. So let's just add another $1m to each of those hits.
Quote:

Not sure what your doing on 2018. He is already being paid the first year of his bonus this year. It should end 2017.


This would be if he is restructured next off-season as well to move it to another 5 years.

Quote:
Romo will also get restructured next year; Just as an FYI. It will set it up were it will cost us ~10M if we cut him in 2018 (~30+ cap hit - 20M Salary). There will be a fairly large savings in 2019 to cut him. Of course, thats excluding the idea of cutting him June 1.


Yes, I could see it potentially being a $10m cap hit in 2018 if you cut him if you continue to restructure. But that's just the thing -- you're setting yourselves up for some big cap hits along the way (though, obviously less than the huge cap hits already scheduled) and then at the end, still taking a big dead money hit. And that's taking a big gamble that he'll even still be successful up through 2018.

It's a very, very risky play and puts your team in a very, very tough spot to continue to restructure. Not to mention you'll likely have to do something similar with Ware just to stay under the cap. And then on top of that, start to lose key pieces that you A) aren't able to re-sign due to these, or B) rely heavily on drafting immediate contributors to fill the shoes of guys you release/let walk.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Quote:
*Some historical perspective is also due. In 2011, Dallas faced “cap hell.’’ A “head-on collision with financial disaster.’’ Yessir, a “train wreck.’’ They were $18 million over the cap in July 2011. But … they never collided with a train. The Cowboys released Roy Williams, Marion Barber and Leonard Davis and restructured the contracts of Tony Romo, DeMarcus Ware and Miles Austin. Those moves allowed the re-signing of/extensions for players like Jason Witten, Doug Free and Jason Hatcher.

*In 2012? “Cap hell’’ once again was predicted due to $30 million of dead money. The how-to’s were so tricky that even owner Jerry Jones himself admitted to fearing “Armageddon.’’ But exec Stephen Jones oversaw moves that eventually allowed the over-the-cap Cowboys to sign Brandon Carr to a $50 million, five-year deal.

Not only was “Armageddon’’ avoided, but the Cowboys actually entered the season $12.6 mil under the cap.
*In 2013? Same song, different verse. The Cowboys started $20 million over the cap. But by the time the season arrived, they’d re-upped Romo and Sean Lee and left themselves plenty of room to also sign Brian Waters. (Oh, and I’m told they’ve also touched base with kicker Dan Bailey, with plans to retain him as well.)

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/10/21/is-alleged-cowboys-2014-cap-is-going-to-be-a-train-wreck/


Yes -- nobody is arguing that they'll be unable to get under the cap. But, these constant restructures put the team in a very tight spot moving forward. The Jets were able to do the same for a few seasons but it inevitably catches up.

It's akin to paying off credit cards with credit cards.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You cant restructure the SB. So it shouldnt be 6.5M in 2018 (again, working so I am too lazy to look up the numbers).


That said - the accounting loopholes the Cowboys use work. It makes since financially in how they structure it. Where you can get screwed is when you make a mistake like the Jets did and give Sanchizes too much $$.

We did that with a few players, but we are out of most of those contracts. The only 'Bad' contract on the books is Austin; and he is still an asset. If he was (ever) healthy, he would be valuable.

Right now, it looks like he will be traded or cut after June 1. We just have too many good WRs and he cant stay healthy.
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the way they got out of cap hell last time was releasing multiple starters?

Yeah, that is not a sustainable way to build a team.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
You cant restructure the SB. So it shouldnt be 6.5M in 2018 (again, working so I am too lazy to look up the numbers).


That said - the accounting loopholes the Cowboys use work. It makes since financially in how they structure it. Where you can get screwed is when you make a mistake like the Jets did and give Sanchizes too much $$.

We did that with a few players, but we are out of most of those contracts. The only 'Bad' contract on the books is Austin; and he is still an asset. If he was (ever) healthy, he would be valuable.

Right now, it looks like he will be traded or cut after June 1. We just have too many good WRs and he cant stay healthy.


There aren't "accounting loopholes" that are being used -- you're simply pushing money into future years. And history has shown it's not a good long-term strategy. Like I said, it's similar to paying off credit card bills with other credit cards.

And ok, I had the SB off. So, based on your responses, here's Romo's numbers... He has $5m SB pro-rated over next 4 seasons (since it started this year). As well, again given the assumption that he will go down to $1m salary this year, he has an additional $2.5m SB pro-ration for the next 5.

2014: $21.7m -> $11.8m ($1m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.3m other bonuses)
2015: $25.3m -> $27.7m ($17m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.3m other bonuses)
2016: $15.1m -> $17.6m ($8.5m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $1.6m other bonuses)
2017: $19m -> $21.5m ($14m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB)
2018: $19.5m -> $22m ($19.5m salary + $2.5m SB)
2019: $20.5m base salary

If you do it again after the 2014 season, it'll be $3.2m SB over 5 years...

2015: $25.3m -> $15m ($1m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB + $3.3m other bonuses)
2016: $15.1m -> $20.8m ($8.5m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB + $1.6m other bonuses)
2017: $19m -> $24.7m ($14m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB)
2018: $19.5m -> $25.2m ($19.5m salary + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB)
2019: $20.5m -> $23.7m ($20.5m salary + $3.2m SB)

Those are still some very hefty cap numbers over the next 6 years for a guy who is already 33 years old.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
So the way they got out of cap hell last time was releasing multiple starters?

Yeah, that is not a sustainable way to build a team.


They got rid of the bad contracts given to those players.

But, like Matts said, they don't really have any of those to dump now -- so, in all actuality, it will be even worse because they will have to dump players who are actually contributing.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:


2015: $25.3m -> $15m ($1m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB + $3.3m other bonuses)
2016: $15.1m -> $20.8m ($8.5m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB + $1.6m other bonuses)
2017: $19m -> $24.7m ($14m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB)
2018: $19.5m -> $25.2m ($19.5m salary + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB)
2019: $20.5m -> $23.7m ($20.5m salary + $3.2m SB)

Those are still some very hefty cap numbers over the next 6 years for a guy who is already 33 years old.


So its a 4M cap savings if cut in 2017, 14M cap savings if cut in 2018 and a 17M cap savings if cut in 2019.


I personally think that Romo will be on the team until 2018. I think the contract is structured that way. Until that point, he is going to count roughly $20m/yr against the cap. That is what most top 10 QBs count against their teams caps.


Ware will be an interesting situation. He was signed when DE's were getting 100M contracts. Now they arent.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
91jmay wrote:
So the way they got out of cap hell last time was releasing multiple starters?

Yeah, that is not a sustainable way to build a team.


They got rid of the bad contracts given to those players.

But, like Matts said, they don't really have any of those to dump now -- so, in all actuality, it will be even worse because they will have to dump players who are actually contributing.


91 - We got rid of a bunch of old vets who weren't good enough to start with us, or any other team. Almost all of them are out of the league. So we got rid of bad contracts, still signed who we wanted, and it never hurt us.

Flacco - We only have a few big contracts on the books (sans Austin, who will be gone soon). Romo - who is getting market value for the next 4 years. Ware, who could be overpaid. And Lee, who is the cornerstone of our Def and just signed.

We are fine. We have some talented players, hence we will be tight against the cap. Most talented teams are.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:


2015: $25.3m -> $15m ($1m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB + $3.3m other bonuses)
2016: $15.1m -> $20.8m ($8.5m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB + $1.6m other bonuses)
2017: $19m -> $24.7m ($14m salary + $5m SB + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB)
2018: $19.5m -> $25.2m ($19.5m salary + $2.5m SB + $3.2m SB)
2019: $20.5m -> $23.7m ($20.5m salary + $3.2m SB)

Those are still some very hefty cap numbers over the next 6 years for a guy who is already 33 years old.


So its a 4M cap savings if cut in 2017, 14M cap savings if cut in 2018 and a 17M cap savings if cut in 2019.


I personally think that Romo will be on the team until 2018. I think the contract is structured that way. Until that point, he is going to count roughly $20m/yr against the cap. That is what most top 10 QBs count against their teams caps.


Ware will be an interesting situation. He was signed when DE's were getting 100M contracts. Now they arent.


Yes, those are the savings based on his cap numbers. It's a nice way to spin it to show that you can save money. But, it's the same as saying he's $19.6m in dead money if cut in 2017, $8.9m dead money if cut in 2018, and $3.2m dead money if cut in 2019.

Again, it's a very risky play and relies on Romo continuing to play as a top 10 QB well into his late 30s. If he starts to lose it in the next 2-3 years, you're essentially screwed hardcore.
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