Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Yates or Keenum, Schaub is out
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Houston Texans
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Pastor Dillon


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 7445
Location: Mountain Home, Arkansas
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texans02 wrote:
Pastor Dillon wrote:
Kubiak always has his project QB that he likes to have around just to mentor. Look at guys like Alex Brink, Case Keenum and the numerous other UDFA we have given a look at in the past. This is the first time he sever willingly put his project QB in a real game.


It's really got me concerned that we are throwing in the towel. With Yates we had a chance to get to the bye 3-4 but now we will be 2-5 and totally defeated


Again, what is so great about Yates? The pre-season numbers for Yates and Keenum were nearly identical. Yates has never been good at taking care of the ball and threw two redzone picks when he got playing time last week.

Your obstinate support for a guy who hasn't done well in the playing time he's been given while writing off an unknown quantity is annoying.


Yates is in his 3rd year in the system, he has won big games in tough places, while Keenum is not an unknown quantity. He was known enough to get passed by 32 teams 7 times. He was safe on our practice squad until we decided to keep 3 QBs.

QBs aren't like RBs. You can't find good ones in UDFA.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
EliteTexan80


Most Valuable Poster
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 38048
Location: Three time Mr. fanTASTic!
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pastor Dillon wrote:
QBs aren't like RBs. You can't find good ones in UDFA.


Jeff Garcia, Tony Romo, Warren Moon and Kurt Warner beg to differ. For the most part, I agree with you - but crazier things have happened in this league, you know? Nobody thought the names above would be anything more than warm bodies, and they've since went on to have productive careers (in the case of Moon and Warner, HoF careers).

The worst thing that can happen is that we lose and Keenum gets killed by this defense. Why risk your 1st and 2nd string guy against THIS pass rush, when you have a guy to take the hits in Keenum and - possibly - provide a spark that can propel this team out of this funk?

If you lose - you go into the bye week with a firm understanding of what you have and what you need to do to get out of this funk. If you win - you go into the bye week with a firm understanding of what you have, and what you need to do to build on momentum.
_________________

iPwn, Kempes and Flaccomania: The official sig makers for THE ET80!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Pastor Dillon


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 7445
Location: Mountain Home, Arkansas
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm worried that Keenum is gonna have flash backs to his Cougar days and throw it to the team in red
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Texans02


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 1758
Location: HOU+ATX
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pastor Dillon wrote:
I'm worried that Keenum is gonna have flash backs to his Cougar days and throw it to the team in red


Perfect touchdown pass. Deal with it.
_________________
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Couldn't we have Gallery Furniture "Saves You Money" day vs. Buffalo where everyone is given a stack of cash to throw as Mario exists the tunnel?


Yes please!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Texans02


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 1758
Location: HOU+ATX
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pastor Dillon wrote:
Yates is in his 3rd year in the system, he has won big games in tough places, while Keenum is not an unknown quantity. He was known enough to get passed by 32 teams 7 times. He was safe on our practice squad until we decided to keep 3 QBs.

QBs aren't like RBs. You can't find good ones in UDFA.


Name a game he won it a "tough place". Cincinnati is a blah venue with a blah team. Its laughable.

Yates was bad in college and bad in the pros. Keenum was good in college and has no pro experience whatsoever. I hope he lights it up. You won't hear the end of it anytime soon if he does.
_________________
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Couldn't we have Gallery Furniture "Saves You Money" day vs. Buffalo where everyone is given a stack of cash to throw as Mario exists the tunnel?


Yes please!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pastor Dillon


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 7445
Location: Mountain Home, Arkansas
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texans02 wrote:
Pastor Dillon wrote:
Yates is in his 3rd year in the system, he has won big games in tough places, while Keenum is not an unknown quantity. He was known enough to get passed by 32 teams 7 times. He was safe on our practice squad until we decided to keep 3 QBs.

QBs aren't like RBs. You can't find good ones in UDFA.


Name a game he won it a "tough place". Cincinnati is a blah venue with a blah team. Its laughable.

Yates was bad in college and bad in the pros. Keenum was good in college and has no pro experience whatsoever. I hope he lights it up. You won't hear the end of it anytime soon if he does.


Lol your acting like I have a personal vendetta against Kennum and don't want him to succeed. He's been pretty good in the first half and if he leads us to victory then great
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Texans02


Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 1758
Location: HOU+ATX
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pastor Dillon wrote:
Lol your acting like I have a personal vendetta against Kennum and don't want him to succeed. He's been pretty good in the first half and if he leads us to victory then great


EDIT too harsh, removing previous post.

You've been awfully negative about Keenum. Its very disingenuous that you are fine with him now.
_________________
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Couldn't we have Gallery Furniture "Saves You Money" day vs. Buffalo where everyone is given a stack of cash to throw as Mario exists the tunnel?


Yes please!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pastor Dillon


Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 7445
Location: Mountain Home, Arkansas
PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texans02 wrote:
Pastor Dillon wrote:
Lol your acting like I have a personal vendetta against Kennum and don't want him to succeed. He's been pretty good in the first half and if he leads us to victory then great


EDIT too harsh, removing previous post.

You've been awfully negative about Keenum. Its very disingenuous that you are fine with him now.


Am I not suppose to admit that he is playing better than I thought? I still think Yates was the smarter choice for this game, and I still don't think that Kennum us a viable option this season
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Taylor916


Joined: 26 Oct 2008
Posts: 277
Location: Nebraska
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My opinion may not be welcome here but Case Keenum played better against our defense than any QB all season. I think it is obvious who your starter should be. At least for the rest of this year or until if and when he regresses.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Apollo Stallion


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 5462
Location: Battle Red State
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taylor916 wrote:
My opinion may not be welcome here but Case Keenum played better against our defense than any QB all season. I think it is obvious who your starter should be. At least for the rest of this year or until if and when he regresses.


Keenum ended all debate in my eyes. He completed passes that have been woefully missing from this offense for at least a year.

The 42 yard pass to AJ DOES NOT happen with Schaub at QB as:
a) he concedes the sack
b) throws it away
c) or throws it to the opponent.

The 42 yarder to Posey doesn't happen with Schaub at QB because:
a) Schaub doesn't even look down field on 2nd downs
b) Kubiak has trained him to just look for TEs for 5 yard gains.
c) Schaub doesn't look to #2 WR's better yet #4.

The 29 yard TD to Hopkins doesn't happen with Schaub at QB
a) because he doesn't look to his #2 WRs
b) he hasn't dropped a pass in a WR's breadbasket like that in ages.
c) Because the celebration afterwards is an excitement long beaten out of him

I stayed with Schaub as long as possible because we thought this was a Super Bowl team and ultimately him reconnecting with the quality QB he was in early 2011 and 2012 was our best route to complete the mission. The mission is clearly different at this point as we are looking at a top 5 overall draft pick vs. punching a playoff ticket. There is no point in rolling Schaub out there in a season that is officially lost, so you might as well let the kid give it his best shot since he still has something to play for. Resigning Schaub in 2012 was the right move for where the team was in it's cycle, but clearly Keenum is in a better place mentally and yesterday confirmed that he has a skillset that can translate to success on the field the rest of the way.
_________________


12 Year Texans Season Ticket Holder
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lumberjackchris


Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 4232
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Taylor916 wrote:
My opinion may not be welcome here but Case Keenum played better against our defense than any QB all season. I think it is obvious who your starter should be. At least for the rest of this year or until if and when he regresses.


Keenum ended all debate in my eyes. He completed passes that have been woefully missing from this offense for at least a year.

The 42 yard pass to AJ DOES NOT happen with Schaub at QB as:
a) he concedes the sack
b) throws it away
c) or throws it to the opponent.

The 42 yarder to Posey doesn't happen with Schaub at QB because:
a) Schaub doesn't even look down field on 2nd downs
b) Kubiak has trained him to just look for TEs for 5 yard gains.
c) Schaub doesn't look to #2 WR's better yet #4.

The 29 yard TD to Hopkins doesn't happen with Schaub at QB
a) because he doesn't look to his #2 WRs
b) he hasn't dropped a pass in a WR's breadbasket like that in ages.
c) Because the celebration afterwards is an excitement long beaten out of him

I stayed with Schaub as long as possible because we thought this was a Super Bowl team and ultimately him reconnecting with the quality QB he was in early 2011 and 2012 was our best route to complete the mission. The mission is clearly different at this point as we are looking at a top 5 overall draft pick vs. punching a playoff ticket. There is no point in rolling Schaub out there in a season that is officially lost, so you might as well let the kid give it his best shot since he still has something to play for. Resigning Schaub in 2012 was the right move for where the team was in it's cycle, but clearly Keenum is in a better place mentally and yesterday confirmed that he has a skillset that can translate to success on the field the rest of the way.


I completely agree Apollo, and if Kub even thinks about start Schaub in 2 weeks (if healthy) then I fully believe the city of Houston and all Texans fans will riot.
_________________
^Kempes on the sick sig^
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grasspike


Moderator
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
Posts: 5098
Location: Davidson College
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Taylor916 wrote:
My opinion may not be welcome here but Case Keenum played better against our defense than any QB all season. I think it is obvious who your starter should be. At least for the rest of this year or until if and when he regresses.


Keenum ended all debate in my eyes. He completed passes that have been woefully missing from this offense for at least a year.

The 42 yard pass to AJ DOES NOT happen with Schaub at QB as:
a) he concedes the sack
b) throws it away
c) or throws it to the opponent.

The 42 yarder to Posey doesn't happen with Schaub at QB because:
a) Schaub doesn't even look down field on 2nd downs
b) Kubiak has trained him to just look for TEs for 5 yard gains.
c) Schaub doesn't look to #2 WR's better yet #4.

The 29 yard TD to Hopkins doesn't happen with Schaub at QB
a) because he doesn't look to his #2 WRs
b) he hasn't dropped a pass in a WR's breadbasket like that in ages.
c) Because the celebration afterwards is an excitement long beaten out of him

I stayed with Schaub as long as possible because we thought this was a Super Bowl team and ultimately him reconnecting with the quality QB he was in early 2011 and 2012 was our best route to complete the mission. The mission is clearly different at this point as we are looking at a top 5 overall draft pick vs. punching a playoff ticket. There is no point in rolling Schaub out there in a season that is officially lost, so you might as well let the kid give it his best shot since he still has something to play for. Resigning Schaub in 2012 was the right move for where the team was in it's cycle, but clearly Keenum is in a better place mentally and yesterday confirmed that he has a skillset that can translate to success on the field the rest of the way.


You're completely right about point 1. You're right about point 2, but not because of any reason you listed. He threw a six-yard stick route to Posey, which Posey should get the credit for making the defender miss and getting YAC. Schaub wouldn't have thrown that because Kubiak wouldn't have called a stick-run play--that's something that would be right at home with the Eagles or 49ers offense. Point 3 is entirely speculation, but I do think Schaub is less likely to throw the alert than to go throught the normal progression.

I think the point everyone is missing is that without Schaub, Kubiak opened up the offense entirely and added a lot of Air Raid concepts to make Keenum comfortable. I'm pretty excited about that, because it means that we could conceivably draft a good modern college QB and he wouldn't have nearly as steep of a learning curve.
_________________

Sig by matthouston91
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Apollo Stallion


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 5462
Location: Battle Red State
PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grasspike wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Taylor916 wrote:
My opinion may not be welcome here but Case Keenum played better against our defense than any QB all season. I think it is obvious who your starter should be. At least for the rest of this year or until if and when he regresses.


Keenum ended all debate in my eyes. He completed passes that have been woefully missing from this offense for at least a year.

The 42 yard pass to AJ DOES NOT happen with Schaub at QB as:
a) he concedes the sack
b) throws it away
c) or throws it to the opponent.

The 42 yarder to Posey doesn't happen with Schaub at QB because:
a) Schaub doesn't even look down field on 2nd downs
b) Kubiak has trained him to just look for TEs for 5 yard gains.
c) Schaub doesn't look to #2 WR's better yet #4.

The 29 yard TD to Hopkins doesn't happen with Schaub at QB
a) because he doesn't look to his #2 WRs
b) he hasn't dropped a pass in a WR's breadbasket like that in ages.
c) Because the celebration afterwards is an excitement long beaten out of him

I stayed with Schaub as long as possible because we thought this was a Super Bowl team and ultimately him reconnecting with the quality QB he was in early 2011 and 2012 was our best route to complete the mission. The mission is clearly different at this point as we are looking at a top 5 overall draft pick vs. punching a playoff ticket. There is no point in rolling Schaub out there in a season that is officially lost, so you might as well let the kid give it his best shot since he still has something to play for. Resigning Schaub in 2012 was the right move for where the team was in it's cycle, but clearly Keenum is in a better place mentally and yesterday confirmed that he has a skillset that can translate to success on the field the rest of the way.


You're completely right about point 1. You're right about point 2, but not because of any reason you listed. He threw a six-yard stick route to Posey, which Posey should get the credit for making the defender miss and getting YAC. Schaub wouldn't have thrown that because Kubiak wouldn't have called a stick-run play--that's something that would be right at home with the Eagles or 49ers offense. Point 3 is entirely speculation, but I do think Schaub is less likely to throw the alert than to go throught the normal progression.

I think the point everyone is missing is that without Schaub, Kubiak opened up the offense entirely and added a lot of Air Raid concepts to make Keenum comfortable. I'm pretty excited about that, because it means that we could conceivably draft a good modern college QB and he wouldn't have nearly as steep of a learning curve.


Please don't use "modern" and Kubiak in the same paragraph. This is a guy who started Kevin Walter for 6 seasons opposite Andre Johnson because of his "blocking skills." It's pretty stinking clear he has no idea what to do with Deandre Hopkins as the only success he's had is when he's playing the AJ role or Keenum is creating off script. In 7 seasons we still don't feature a slot receiver which didn't exist when Kubiak stole Shanny's 1995 playbook (who stole it from Bill Walsh).

People give Kubiak way too much credit for what Denver created with Elway, Rod Smith, Ed McAffery who were there when he got there and developed by Shanny with Kubiak essentially holding the same clipboard he held when backing up Elway. At best, he gets credit for the 03-05 Jake Plummer era there which was defined by regular season success and playoff failure largely due to an inability to teach Jake to protect the football. He also is a guy who was a part of decision making that had backup quality starters like Brian Griese, Bubby Brister, Gus Frerotte, Chris Miller, Steve Beuerlien, Danny Kanell, and Jarious Jackson starting games between the Elway and Cutler eras (sound familiar?).

When Kubiak finally shed his QB coach title for OC title presumably being trusted to actually call plays after 8 years, he presided over a season in 03 where they had no receiver eclipse 900 yards or catch more than 3 tds (sound familiar?). In 04 WRs started putting up quality numbers again, but he couldn't rid Jake Plummer of his interception problems that eclipsed 20 and they got throttled by Indy in the playoffs for a 2nd straight one and done (sound familiar). In 05 it was right back to their conservative ways with Rod Smith getting 6 Tds and no other WR even getting 2! The Steelers came to town and shut down the run and predictably Jake threw away the game. Understand, they actually started 1 WR, 2 TEs, and a FB in this game in 2005 (not 1965). Jake was out of the league entirely after 06 proving Kubiak and Shanny were apparently the only one's who thought he was a starting QB.

The lone WR Kubiak "developed" was Ashley Lelie who put up 1 whole 1,000 yard season in 4 seasons as Denver's #1 pick with the other 3 a dead ringer for Kevin Walter and his 40 catch / 600 yard afterthought status. He basically presided over an era that ran Rod Smith and Ed McAfffery out their despite their diminishing skills and replaced Hall of Famer Sterling Sharpe with the likes of Jeb Putzier, Stephen Alexander, and Duane Carswell while running the same playbook.

Kubiak's time has come and gone. He got us to the next level, but somebody else is going to have to finish the job. Texan fans should want him nowhere close to the selection of our next QB unless you think Devier Posey and Keyshawn Martin were inspired picks to provide a credible threat opposite AJ in 2012.
_________________


12 Year Texans Season Ticket Holder
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grasspike


Moderator
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
Posts: 5098
Location: Davidson College
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Grasspike wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Taylor916 wrote:
My opinion may not be welcome here but Case Keenum played better against our defense than any QB all season. I think it is obvious who your starter should be. At least for the rest of this year or until if and when he regresses.


Keenum ended all debate in my eyes. He completed passes that have been woefully missing from this offense for at least a year.

The 42 yard pass to AJ DOES NOT happen with Schaub at QB as:
a) he concedes the sack
b) throws it away
c) or throws it to the opponent.

The 42 yarder to Posey doesn't happen with Schaub at QB because:
a) Schaub doesn't even look down field on 2nd downs
b) Kubiak has trained him to just look for TEs for 5 yard gains.
c) Schaub doesn't look to #2 WR's better yet #4.

The 29 yard TD to Hopkins doesn't happen with Schaub at QB
a) because he doesn't look to his #2 WRs
b) he hasn't dropped a pass in a WR's breadbasket like that in ages.
c) Because the celebration afterwards is an excitement long beaten out of him

I stayed with Schaub as long as possible because we thought this was a Super Bowl team and ultimately him reconnecting with the quality QB he was in early 2011 and 2012 was our best route to complete the mission. The mission is clearly different at this point as we are looking at a top 5 overall draft pick vs. punching a playoff ticket. There is no point in rolling Schaub out there in a season that is officially lost, so you might as well let the kid give it his best shot since he still has something to play for. Resigning Schaub in 2012 was the right move for where the team was in it's cycle, but clearly Keenum is in a better place mentally and yesterday confirmed that he has a skillset that can translate to success on the field the rest of the way.


You're completely right about point 1. You're right about point 2, but not because of any reason you listed. He threw a six-yard stick route to Posey, which Posey should get the credit for making the defender miss and getting YAC. Schaub wouldn't have thrown that because Kubiak wouldn't have called a stick-run play--that's something that would be right at home with the Eagles or 49ers offense. Point 3 is entirely speculation, but I do think Schaub is less likely to throw the alert than to go throught the normal progression.

I think the point everyone is missing is that without Schaub, Kubiak opened up the offense entirely and added a lot of Air Raid concepts to make Keenum comfortable. I'm pretty excited about that, because it means that we could conceivably draft a good modern college QB and he wouldn't have nearly as steep of a learning curve.


Please don't use "modern" and Kubiak in the same paragraph. This is a guy who started Kevin Walter for 6 seasons opposite Andre Johnson because of his "blocking skills." It's pretty stinking clear he has no idea what to do with Deandre Hopkins as the only success he's had is when he's playing the AJ role or Keenum is creating off script. In 7 seasons we still don't feature a slot receiver which didn't exist when Kubiak stole Shanny's 1995 playbook (who stole it from Bill Walsh).

People give Kubiak way too much credit for what Denver created with Elway, Rod Smith, Ed McAffery who were there when he got there and developed by Shanny with Kubiak essentially holding the same clipboard he held when backing up Elway. At best, he gets credit for the 03-05 Jake Plummer era there which was defined by regular season success and playoff failure largely due to an inability to teach Jake to protect the football. He also is a guy who was a part of decision making that had backup quality starters like Brian Griese, Bubby Brister, Gus Frerotte, Chris Miller, Steve Beuerlien, Danny Kanell, and Jarious Jackson starting games between the Elway and Cutler eras (sound familiar?).

When Kubiak finally shed his QB coach title for OC title presumably being trusted to actually call plays after 8 years, he presided over a season in 03 where they had no receiver eclipse 900 yards or catch more than 3 tds (sound familiar?). In 04 WRs started putting up quality numbers again, but he couldn't rid Jake Plummer of his interception problems that eclipsed 20 and they got throttled by Indy in the playoffs for a 2nd straight one and done (sound familiar). In 05 it was right back to their conservative ways with Rod Smith getting 6 Tds and no other WR even getting 2! The Steelers came to town and shut down the run and predictably Jake threw away the game. Understand, they actually started 1 WR, 2 TEs, and a FB in this game in 2005 (not 1965). Jake was out of the league entirely after 06 proving Kubiak and Shanny were apparently the only one's who thought he was a starting QB.

The lone WR Kubiak "developed" was Ashley Lelie who put up 1 whole 1,000 yard season in 4 seasons as Denver's #1 pick with the other 3 a dead ringer for Kevin Walter and his 40 catch / 600 yard afterthought status. He basically presided over an era that ran Rod Smith and Ed McAfffery out their despite their diminishing skills and replaced Hall of Famer Sterling Sharpe with the likes of Jeb Putzier, Stephen Alexander, and Duane Carswell while running the same playbook.

Kubiak's time has come and gone. He got us to the next level, but somebody else is going to have to finish the job. Texan fans should want him nowhere close to the selection of our next QB unless you think Devier Posey and Keyshawn Martin were inspired picks to provide a credible threat opposite AJ in 2012.


Regardless of Kubiak's prior history, the Texans ran a more modern offense in this last game, and that's a great step in the right direction.

Despite Kubiak's flaws, I still think the odds of him being fired this season are low, and the odds of him being fired and the franchise actually making a great coaching hire are even lower. Wishful thinking aside, the proven good coaches are not going anywhere, and for every Harbaugh or Sean Payton hired from the coordinator ranks, there are ten Steve Spagnuolos or Scott Linehans.
_________________

Sig by matthouston91
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
lumberjackchris


Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 4232
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ian Rapaport is reporting Schaub has torn ligaments in his ankle and will attempt to play through it, although we won't be "right" the rest of the season.

1) Matt have the surgery, make your millions and ride off into the sunset.

2) Kub, if you start an immobile QB with a bum ankle, you should be fired immediately
_________________
^Kempes on the sick sig^
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Houston Texans All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group