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Ndaumkong Suh fined for hit on Brandon Weeden
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Nnivolcm


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DLF54927 wrote:
I do believe all 15 yard penalties are automatically reviewed for further discipline, if needed.


Suh didn't draw a flag, so even if that's the case, there wouldn't be an automatic review.
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DLF54927


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was referring to the Groves' hit.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nnivolcm wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
TimeForChange wrote:

So you fine someone for a legal play? How is that making the game safer?

Next time he makes an illegal or dirty play suspend him for 4 games or the rest of the season.

That would help him (maybe). How does fining someone who could be trying to play safe teach him anything? The only thing it is teaching him is that even if you play clean your past will always be what we base you on.


Well it was an illegal hit.

But you dont say such a stupid thing. Suh's hit wasnt even a case of Suh showing no regards to the rule. It was a perfectly good hit. Somebody help me but what part of Suh's hit makes it unsafe for the player hit?


It's only considered an illegal hit because it was Suh that made it.

Thank you incognito for linking the rule earlier.
incognito_man wrote:

From article 9:
Quote:
Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:
(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or
shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless
player by encircling or grasping him; and
(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of
the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.


The part that irks me is that in order for it to be against the rules, the hit with the helmet has to be considered forcible. If he had led with the helmet I could see the case, but he led with his hands/arms. His hand and arms are where the force from the hit comes from, after that it's pretty meager contact from the helmet.

It is a legal hit, both in common sense and in the rule book. No one else in the NFL even gets this hit looked at, let alone fined, let alone fined over the minimum.


And you have just effectively removed yourself from any logical discussion on the subject. Congrats.


You could try to make your point by bringing any evidence of me being wrong to the conversation.

Here is some evidence of my point, and I'll see if you can counter with anything other than an irrationally dismissive statement.

There was a nearly identical hit in the same game. Groves hit Stafford immediately after Stafford threw the ball. The hairline of the helmet and the facemask clearly come in contact with Stafford's chest and neck area, and Groves drives Stafford to the ground after the hit.



If the league would have reviewed the play, they wouldn't be able to ignore the similarities, or that this play was actually more of an illegal hit, and Groves would have been fined. There was no fine so there are two possible conclusions, either the NFL didn't review it, or they reviewed it and found it to be within the rules. If the NFL had found Groves hit within the rules, there is no way they could have found Suh's hit to be illegal.


So because the NFL didnt review that one hit (we are assuming, its safer to assume they did review it and decided for whatever reason to not fine Groves... perhaps a warning was issued?) that must mean the NFL never looks at any hits like it. Ever. Just when it's Suh. Laughing

If you desire a less dismissive response, try not being so dismissive of logic or reality. The NFL looks at hits like that constantly nowadays. I mean I dont even try and keep up with this, but didnt we JUST see a RB get fined for a crown of the helmet hit on a defender? And that RB was not flagged during the game. Is the NFL out to get Jackie Battle? Do they only look at hits he lays on defenders.

Use your head for something besides cracking walnuts. The NFL hands out fines like candy nowadays.
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Nnivolcm


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never seen anyone else get fined for this kind of hit, and I've never heard of anyone else getting looked at for this kind of hit either. If you have something to add to the conversation that disputes that, please add it. If not, I could do without your thinly veiled insults.
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Packerraymond


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nnivolcm wrote:
I've never seen anyone else get fined for this kind of hit, and I've never heard of anyone else getting looked at for this kind of hit either. If you have something to add to the conversation that disputes that, please add it. If not, I could do without your thinly veiled insults.


Bad fines happen in the NFL, Jermichael Finley was fined 16k this week for jacking up Terrell Suggs on a completely legal block. It's nothing to get bent out of shape over, I'm sure Suh will be able to pay his rent this month. Besides, it was a terrible fine, but it is 100% Suh's own fault for losing the benefit of the doubt with the NFL for past bone headed plays.
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TimeForChange


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packerraymond wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
I've never seen anyone else get fined for this kind of hit, and I've never heard of anyone else getting looked at for this kind of hit either. If you have something to add to the conversation that disputes that, please add it. If not, I could do without your thinly veiled insults.


Bad fines happen in the NFL, Jermichael Finley was fined 16k this week for jacking up Terrell Suggs on a completely legal block. It's nothing to get bent out of shape over, I'm sure Suh will be able to pay his rent this month. Besides, it was a terrible fine, but it is 100% Suh's own fault for losing the benefit of the doubt with the NFL for past bone headed plays.


Suh has earned being under the microscope for dirty plays and questionable decisions. He plays hard and sometimes he makes the wrong decision.

He and no player should earn being fined simply to send a message. This play wasn't the right time to do that.
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J Pep 4 Step


Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nnivolcm wrote:
I've never seen anyone else get fined for this kind of hit, and I've never heard of anyone else getting looked at for this kind of hit either. If you have something to add to the conversation that disputes that, please add it. If not, I could do without your thinly veiled insults.


By "this kind of hit" you mean what, exactly? Hits involving the crown of the helmet? Hits we have all on this site questioned and argued back and forth for a couple years now about how "thats not the crown of the helmet" and "this is where initial contact was made" and what constitutes a defenseless player and how it doesnt matter to the rules and what constitutes "launching" etc etc? We have been arguing for and against fines of this nature for hits of this nature for a couple years now, lamenting about how soft the game has become. Please stop trying to play the pity card here. It's a league wide issue. Not a Suh issue. The only way this is even remotely unique is the size of the fine. Which is easily explained by Suh's history.
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detfan782004


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
TimeForChange wrote:

So you fine someone for a legal play? How is that making the game safer?

Next time he makes an illegal or dirty play suspend him for 4 games or the rest of the season.

That would help him (maybe). How does fining someone who could be trying to play safe teach him anything? The only thing it is teaching him is that even if you play clean your past will always be what we base you on.


Well it was an illegal hit.

But you dont say such a stupid thing. Suh's hit wasnt even a case of Suh showing no regards to the rule. It was a perfectly good hit. Somebody help me but what part of Suh's hit makes it unsafe for the player hit?


It's only considered an illegal hit because it was Suh that made it.

Thank you incognito for linking the rule earlier.
incognito_man wrote:

From article 9:
Quote:
Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:
(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or
shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless
player by encircling or grasping him; and
(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of
the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.


The part that irks me is that in order for it to be against the rules, the hit with the helmet has to be considered forcible. If he had led with the helmet I could see the case, but he led with his hands/arms. His hand and arms are where the force from the hit comes from, after that it's pretty meager contact from the helmet.

It is a legal hit, both in common sense and in the rule book. No one else in the NFL even gets this hit looked at, let alone fined, let alone fined over the minimum.


And you have just effectively removed yourself from any logical discussion on the subject. Congrats.


You could try to make your point by bringing any evidence of me being wrong to the conversation.

Here is some evidence of my point, and I'll see if you can counter with anything other than an irrationally dismissive statement.

There was a nearly identical hit in the same game. Groves hit Stafford immediately after Stafford threw the ball. The hairline of the helmet and the facemask clearly come in contact with Stafford's chest and neck area, and Groves drives Stafford to the ground after the hit.



If the league would have reviewed the play, they wouldn't be able to ignore the similarities, or that this play was actually more of an illegal hit, and Groves would have been fined. There was no fine so there are two possible conclusions, either the NFL didn't review it, or they reviewed it and found it to be within the rules. If the NFL had found Groves hit within the rules, there is no way they could have found Suh's hit to be illegal.


So because the NFL didnt review that one hit (we are assuming, its safer to assume they did review it and decided for whatever reason to not fine Groves... perhaps a warning was issued?) that must mean the NFL never looks at any hits like it. Ever. Just when it's Suh. Laughing

If you desire a less dismissive response, try not being so dismissive of logic or reality. The NFL looks at hits like that constantly nowadays. I mean I dont even try and keep up with this, but didnt we JUST see a RB get fined for a crown of the helmet hit on a defender? And that RB was not flagged during the game. Is the NFL out to get Jackie Battle? Do they only look at hits he lays on defenders.

Use your head for something besides cracking walnuts. The NFL hands out fines like candy nowadays.


Sure you can manage to not insult him and still get your point across no matter how weak it is.

There is obvious double standard and the guy admitted to it so if Suh fights this those quotes alone should win it for him.
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GSUeagles14


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packerraymond wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
I've never seen anyone else get fined for this kind of hit, and I've never heard of anyone else getting looked at for this kind of hit either. If you have something to add to the conversation that disputes that, please add it. If not, I could do without your thinly veiled insults.


Bad fines happen in the NFL, Jermichael Finley was fined 16k this week for jacking up Terrell Suggs on a completely legal block. It's nothing to get bent out of shape over, I'm sure Suh will be able to pay his rent this month. Besides, it was a terrible fine, but it is 100% Suh's own fault for losing the benefit of the doubt with the NFL for past bone headed plays.


I agree that this isnt going to bankrupt Suh, its the fact the that Hanks basically recognizes that its over the top is the problem.
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J Pep 4 Step


Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

detfan782004 wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
J Pep 4 Step wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
TimeForChange wrote:

So you fine someone for a legal play? How is that making the game safer?

Next time he makes an illegal or dirty play suspend him for 4 games or the rest of the season.

That would help him (maybe). How does fining someone who could be trying to play safe teach him anything? The only thing it is teaching him is that even if you play clean your past will always be what we base you on.


Well it was an illegal hit.

But you dont say such a stupid thing. Suh's hit wasnt even a case of Suh showing no regards to the rule. It was a perfectly good hit. Somebody help me but what part of Suh's hit makes it unsafe for the player hit?


It's only considered an illegal hit because it was Suh that made it.

Thank you incognito for linking the rule earlier.
incognito_man wrote:

From article 9:
Quote:
Prohibited contact against a player who is in a defenseless posture is:
(1) Forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or
shoulder, regardless of whether the defensive player also uses his arms to tackle the defenseless
player by encircling or grasping him; and
(2) Lowering the head and making forcible contact with the top/crown or forehead/”hairline” parts of
the helmet against any part of the defenseless player’s body.


The part that irks me is that in order for it to be against the rules, the hit with the helmet has to be considered forcible. If he had led with the helmet I could see the case, but he led with his hands/arms. His hand and arms are where the force from the hit comes from, after that it's pretty meager contact from the helmet.

It is a legal hit, both in common sense and in the rule book. No one else in the NFL even gets this hit looked at, let alone fined, let alone fined over the minimum.


And you have just effectively removed yourself from any logical discussion on the subject. Congrats.


You could try to make your point by bringing any evidence of me being wrong to the conversation.

Here is some evidence of my point, and I'll see if you can counter with anything other than an irrationally dismissive statement.

There was a nearly identical hit in the same game. Groves hit Stafford immediately after Stafford threw the ball. The hairline of the helmet and the facemask clearly come in contact with Stafford's chest and neck area, and Groves drives Stafford to the ground after the hit.



If the league would have reviewed the play, they wouldn't be able to ignore the similarities, or that this play was actually more of an illegal hit, and Groves would have been fined. There was no fine so there are two possible conclusions, either the NFL didn't review it, or they reviewed it and found it to be within the rules. If the NFL had found Groves hit within the rules, there is no way they could have found Suh's hit to be illegal.


So because the NFL didnt review that one hit (we are assuming, its safer to assume they did review it and decided for whatever reason to not fine Groves... perhaps a warning was issued?) that must mean the NFL never looks at any hits like it. Ever. Just when it's Suh. Laughing

If you desire a less dismissive response, try not being so dismissive of logic or reality. The NFL looks at hits like that constantly nowadays. I mean I dont even try and keep up with this, but didnt we JUST see a RB get fined for a crown of the helmet hit on a defender? And that RB was not flagged during the game. Is the NFL out to get Jackie Battle? Do they only look at hits he lays on defenders.

Use your head for something besides cracking walnuts. The NFL hands out fines like candy nowadays.


Sure you can manage to not insult him and still get your point across no matter how weak it is.

There is obvious double standard and the guy admitted to it so if Suh fights this those quotes alone should win it for him.


Just like the guy "admitted to" there being no foul in the quotes, right?

detfan782004 wrote:
He admitted nothing wrong with hit.


Once again we see a fans willingness to see whatever he wants to see.

As we circle this carousel once again, I will point out that if you are uncomfortable with that type of "double standard" than you are uncomfortable with almost any aspect of crime and punishment, from parenting to the courtroom. Your personal history matters. No parent, no judge, no boss is going to ignore extenuating and mitigating circumstances and treat everyone exactly the same in every case. Nobody is going to treat a first time offender the same as a repeat offender. Expecting that type of "consistency" is laughable.

Keep in mind I am not here to argue whether the fine was warranted. Just that this isnt "poor little Suh getting picked on by the big bad NFL". It was a ticky tack fine. Watching the play I can absolutely see where the contact that led to the fine was made. But, again, it was rather ticky tack. That being said, we see ticky tack fines levied all the time. We have been complaining about it for the better part of the last 3 years.
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BlackandBlue


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

J Pep, do you think the fine was warranted or not?
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BlackandBlue wrote:

So Mark Sanchez was a better player last season than Russel Wilson?

Depends on what you are looking for. Breaking down defenses I would take Sanchez no doubt.
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BlackandBlue


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Packerraymond wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
I've never seen anyone else get fined for this kind of hit, and I've never heard of anyone else getting looked at for this kind of hit either. If you have something to add to the conversation that disputes that, please add it. If not, I could do without your thinly veiled insults.


Bad fines happen in the NFL, Jermichael Finley was fined 16k this week for jacking up Terrell Suggs on a completely legal block. It's nothing to get bent out of shape over, I'm sure Suh will be able to pay his rent this month. Besides, it was a terrible fine, but it is 100% Suh's own fault for losing the benefit of the doubt with the NFL for past bone headed plays.


If it's a terrible fine, then it's not his fault. Do you see where this line of reasoning is going? What if the NFL decides to fine Suh the next time he jumps offsides? Would that be Suh's fault as well?
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detfan782004 wrote:
BlackandBlue wrote:

So Mark Sanchez was a better player last season than Russel Wilson?

Depends on what you are looking for. Breaking down defenses I would take Sanchez no doubt.
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reckless123


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
I've never seen anyone else get fined for this kind of hit, and I've never heard of anyone else getting looked at for this kind of hit either. If you have something to add to the conversation that disputes that, please add it. If not, I could do without your thinly veiled insults.


Bad fines happen in the NFL, Jermichael Finley was fined 16k this week for jacking up Terrell Suggs on a completely legal block. It's nothing to get bent out of shape over, I'm sure Suh will be able to pay his rent this month. Besides, it was a terrible fine, but it is 100% Suh's own fault for losing the benefit of the doubt with the NFL for past bone headed plays.


If it's a terrible fine, then it's not his fault. Do you see where this line of reasoning is going? What if the NFL decides to fine Suh the next time he jumps offsides? Would that be Suh's fault as well?


His history got him fined but it doesnt his latest fine his fault. I agree with you. My issue is that the Suh hit was not a clear disobedience to health and safety. He led with his hands and he managed to hit him with his head but in the mid section. Please tell me how thats detrimental to health and safety? If anything, its detrimental to Suh's safety more than anything else.

These rules lack common sense.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
J Pep, do you think the fine was warranted or not?


That's a tough question to answer. And it's really not my intention to argue whether it is or not. I am tired of arguing over these fines after so many of them. But here's my 2 cents, absolutely free of charge.

I think it was a ricky tick fine. I think in a vacuum I would call that fine utter garbage. Yes, there was some contact with the crown of the helmet under the chin in my view. But certainly not enough to warrant a fine. It wasnt a jarring hit. It didnt phase Weeden. It's football, let it go. For the love of god, let them play.

But this isnt a vacuum, so I look at the same play and, because of Suh's personal history, I am forced to look at the play under the microscope. Just like the NFL is. Just like the NFL rightfully should. And when you do, you see that Suh is being Suh. Trying to get a lick in. That's what he does. Which isnt necessarily bad in and of itself. That's football. But the NFL has put him on notice. Getting a lick in will draw scrutiny and if its even questionable, theyre going to probably nail him. Becaquse they want him to be smarter and safer when getting those licks in.

So in the end, yeah, I think it was warranted. I see the logic behind it. And I probably agree with it more than disagree with it. Based more on Suh's history than the play itself. And, as I have said before, I like Suh. Well, most of the time. He's a throwback. A relic born too late. Butkus is celebrated to this day for the same kind of play style. Lots of players are. Suh plays football with a nasty streak. And, as an old school fan, that makes me a fan. But unfortunately, this isnt the 70's. New rules, new focus, new style.

Just like Rick James, Suh is a perpetual line stepper. And the NFL has to check him. Like it or not, that's the NFL now. You make contact with a chinstrap with the crown of your helmet, you better believe the NFL is going to take a look at it. And if you are Suh, you better expect a fine.
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J Pep 4 Step


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlackandBlue wrote:
Packerraymond wrote:
Nnivolcm wrote:
I've never seen anyone else get fined for this kind of hit, and I've never heard of anyone else getting looked at for this kind of hit either. If you have something to add to the conversation that disputes that, please add it. If not, I could do without your thinly veiled insults.


Bad fines happen in the NFL, Jermichael Finley was fined 16k this week for jacking up Terrell Suggs on a completely legal block. It's nothing to get bent out of shape over, I'm sure Suh will be able to pay his rent this month. Besides, it was a terrible fine, but it is 100% Suh's own fault for losing the benefit of the doubt with the NFL for past bone headed plays.


If it's a terrible fine, then it's not his fault. Do you see where this line of reasoning is going? What if the NFL decides to fine Suh the next time he jumps offsides? Would that be Suh's fault as well?


Fining Suh for jumping offsides would be unprecedented. Fining him for that type of hit isnt.
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