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My Opinion for Lack of Success on 3rd Down...
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dwaye50


Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Posts: 159
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:33 am    Post subject: Re: My Opinion for Lack of Success on 3rd Down... Reply with quote

daintrain28 wrote:
I remember making a similar argument in 2009 and being shot down by many on this website. I honestly think that my thoughts are coming true.

Green Bay throws the ball WAY too much on short yardage situations. What is even more frustrating is the formations we use. I guess I'll give MM credit for being consistent, but they make no sense.

How many times do we see 3rd and short and Rodgers is in the shotgun? Sometimes with an empty backfield? If we do run in those situations, we go with our lightest back in tosses and draws. More often than not we throw and then cannot figure out why we can't move the chains.

Why not use a goal line offense? 2-3 TEs, Eddie Lacy in the backfield, god-forbid a FB (or maybe even the inverted wishbone we used to see. Bigs on bigs, and put your head down and get 1-2 yards.

To me, this is common sense.


I agree 100% and this is why McCarthy's playcalling upsets me. Stop trying to spread out the field on 3 and short, go old school football and pound the rock with Lacy. Same thing on the goal line, anything inside 5 yards we shouldn't be in the shotgun.
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Pugger


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more Lacy shows he can get the tough 2 or 3 yards the more MM will give him the rock. We have to remember MM and AR aren't used to having a legit running game around here. Wink
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vang_evo9


Joined: 13 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not too concerned about the play call or formation if they at least convert most of them, but game after game it seems they go for vertical routes or obvious run situations which creates the most run blocking problems for our o line when the d-line isn't disciplined.
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Revel8


Joined: 14 Aug 2013
Posts: 771
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: My Opinion for Lack of Success on 3rd Down... Reply with quote

daintrain28 wrote:
I remember making a similar argument in 2009 and being shot down by many on this website. I honestly think that my thoughts are coming true.

Green Bay throws the ball WAY too much on short yardage situations. What is even more frustrating is the formations we use. I guess I'll give MM credit for being consistent, but they make no sense.

How many times do we see 3rd and short and Rodgers is in the shotgun? Sometimes with an empty backfield? If we do run in those situations, we go with our lightest back in tosses and draws. More often than not we throw and then cannot figure out why we can't move the chains.

Why not use a goal line offense? 2-3 TEs, Eddie Lacy in the backfield, god-forbid a FB (or maybe even the inverted wishbone we used to see. Bigs on bigs, and put your head down and get 1-2 yards.

To me, this is common sense.



That's partially true and I largely agree, but the Packers 3rd down % has been good since 2009. This year we've been transitioning to more of a ball control offense and are still working out the kinks. There have also been several 3rd downs this season that were either flat out drops or missed calls by the refs.
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ArodFanboy


Joined: 29 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe now that Cobb is out and Jones may not play, McCarthy will be forced to use Lacy on more short yardage situations. He's had two big games in a row now off of a concussion, absolutely proving his worth at an early stage, which says a lot about what he can be with an offseason in an NFL weight room. Mac is pretty stubborn, but at this point he needs to see what he has there. Especially considering our line has run blocked well lately.
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gizmo2012


Joined: 11 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When the Packers find a really good 3rd down RB they will improve on 3rd down conversions. The Packers have not found their Sproles, or Edelman, or other solid 3rd down backs in the league. The Packers have not had a solid 3rd down back since Brandon Jackson - you know the year they won the SB.
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nfldraftguru1


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ideal way to run in short yardage is to spread the field and run it from under center. A singleback 3 WR form makes the D respect the pass enough that you should have at least one running land provided the line doesn't poop itself.
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Dunderhead


Joined: 13 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I think it's amazing that folks are getting angry about this. The last two years I don't think anyone complained about 3rd downs and all we did was pass the ball.

I think this anger is coming from a good place. I think we're all starting to see a change in this Packer team to a more physical brand of football over the arena ball we've gotten used to. And now that we're down Wrs, I expect to see some big payoffs in the coming weeks.

If Rodgers just gets a bit more efficient in some tight spots I don't think there will be one complaint about how many points the Pack puts up or 3rd down conversions.
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Frank-O


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NormSizedMidget wrote:
I'd agree. My issue would be the second we do this with Lacy and we get no push and get stopped, then MM was too obvious.

I really feel like the man can't win.

When he makes a great play call. It was execution or Rodgers or Lacy or the OL.

When a play doesn't work, it wasn't anyone's fault but his play call.

I never blame a coach for running the ball with the goalline formation when it's a short yardage situation. To me it's all about the players and getting the push. Man on man type of play, who's going to be better. Another obvious play in the goalline formation is a PA bootleg....Get Rodgers outta the pocket and let him run or pass.
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daintrain28


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank-O wrote:
NormSizedMidget wrote:
I'd agree. My issue would be the second we do this with Lacy and we get no push and get stopped, then MM was too obvious.

I really feel like the man can't win.

When he makes a great play call. It was execution or Rodgers or Lacy or the OL.

When a play doesn't work, it wasn't anyone's fault but his play call.

I never blame a coach for running the ball with the goalline formation when it's a short yardage situation. To me it's all about the players and getting the push. Man on man type of play, who's going to be better. Another obvious play in the goalline formation is a PA bootleg....Get Rodgers outta the pocket and let him run or pass.


Yes!! And bingo was his name-o!!

It's not that I am against passing the ball on 3rd down, it's the asinine formations. No lead blockers, 3-4 WRs, how many times in the MM era have we seen Rodgers line up in an empty backfield on 3rd and short.

Deception is the name of the game. On the TD last Sunday to Nelson, GB was in a running formation with 3 TEs. Big surprise Jordy got behind the DBs bc he was probably thinking run.

In Super Bowl XLV, GB was in a running formation on 3rd and short when they got their first TD also to Nelson.

I think we can do smarter, higher percentage things on 3rd down that will go a long way toward sustaining drives and ultimately scoring more points.

What MM is doing right now is rather pigheaded.
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dcerb44


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

daintrain28 wrote:
Frank-O wrote:
NormSizedMidget wrote:
I'd agree. My issue would be the second we do this with Lacy and we get no push and get stopped, then MM was too obvious.

I really feel like the man can't win.

When he makes a great play call. It was execution or Rodgers or Lacy or the OL.

When a play doesn't work, it wasn't anyone's fault but his play call.

I never blame a coach for running the ball with the goalline formation when it's a short yardage situation. To me it's all about the players and getting the push. Man on man type of play, who's going to be better. Another obvious play in the goalline formation is a PA bootleg....Get Rodgers outta the pocket and let him run or pass.


Yes!! And bingo was his name-o!!

It's not that I am against passing the ball on 3rd down, it's the asinine formations. No lead blockers, 3-4 WRs, how many times in the MM era have we seen Rodgers line up in an empty backfield on 3rd and short.

Deception is the name of the game. On the TD last Sunday to Nelson, GB was in a running formation with 3 TEs. Big surprise Jordy got behind the DBs bc he was probably thinking run.

In Super Bowl XLV, GB was in a running formation on 3rd and short when they got their first TD also to Nelson.

I think we can do smarter, higher percentage things on 3rd down that will go a long way toward sustaining drives and ultimately scoring more points.

What MM is doing right now is rather pigheaded.


True to a degree Dain, but I can also see why a coach would love to split it out in shotgun there too.

Goaline formation reduces the amount of WR by adding TE's. Most defenses then are able to bunch up, masking their play call as you expect a run, bootleg or play action pass.

However, when you line up in shotgun formation you are effectively stretching the defense. You can still run, pass and play action out of it but the biggest advantage is how much easier it makes it for the team to create mismatches and easier for Rodgers to read how the defense reacts as it isn't so easy to mask the defensive call.

So I can see why a coach would be apt to call a shotgun there considering its advantages especially if they weren't totally comfortable with their o-line and running game. You are putting the ball in the hands of your best player increasing your odds that he makes the right choice.

Football will always be a game very similar to that of a complex round of chess but the most important aspect that many people forget is execution. Inherently no call is bad as long as executed properly though that isn't always the case. Sometimes they mess up, sometimes the defense executes better than the offense and other times it works out.
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This should definitely be McCarthy's swan song. If we're lucky Bret Bielema will come back to this state and coach the Pack next year.
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spilltray


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also keep in mind that this is primarily a zone line. Man up power in tight spaces isn't the strength of this line. Going to a goal line or heavy type formation limits the stretch the line can get to make something pop. Like everything else there are advantages and weaknesses and even the great ZBS run blocking OLs if they've had a major weakness, it's inherently been in short yardage.
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NormSizedMidget


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank-O wrote:
NormSizedMidget wrote:
I'd agree. My issue would be the second we do this with Lacy and we get no push and get stopped, then MM was too obvious.

I really feel like the man can't win.

When he makes a great play call. It was execution or Rodgers or Lacy or the OL.

When a play doesn't work, it wasn't anyone's fault but his play call.

I never blame a coach for running the ball with the goalline formation when it's a short yardage situation. To me it's all about the players and getting the push. Man on man type of play, who's going to be better. Another obvious play in the goalline formation is a PA bootleg....Get Rodgers outta the pocket and let him run or pass.


Agreed on the bootlegs so much. I'm asking for it every time we get in those situations.
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Joyride15


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The formation is the most bothering.

If your going to pass.... fine, but we don't even show a threat to run in the formations we are putting out there.
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MrBobGray


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest reason you see Rodgers take shots downfield on 3rd and short is simple: it's the only time we consistently see one-high safety. Rodgers has complete faith in being able to beat man coverage down the field when there's no safety over the top, so often in 3rd and 1 or 2 you'll see him check to a pass with receivers going deep on the sidelines. It's not a bad idea, but it kills drives as often as it scores and as the Pack transition to a ball control team Rodgers will have to learn to control that urge to always be looking for the big play. The thing is, this is a relatively recent development; Lacy is the first RB the Packers have had that has really been worth losing that chance for a kill shot. Give it time, Rodgers and MM will get better.
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