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J-ALL-DAY


Joined: 17 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Davis is actually very soft considering his size and strength. A guy like McDonald will try to run you over, but Davis is taken relatively easy. It is hilarious how hesitant he gets at times when all he needs to do is lower his shoulders.
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steadypimpin


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember when VD scored his first TD against AZ and bowled like 2 guys over. I think after he broke his leg? He has been overly cautious.
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Kikuchiyo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Kikuchiyo wrote:
They can't put a CB on Vernon if they're in a base defense, because that forces a S to cover our #2 WR. Kyle Williams isn't particularly good, but he runs a 4.3 and would smoke just about any S in the league (minus maybe Earl Thomas).


But this is my point. Vernon IS smoking defenses. We don't have to speculate on whether he might or he would as you are doing with KW. You're saying don't adjust the defense to take away the one guy who you know is killing you because just maybe there is another guy who might hurt you just as bad. First, nothing in KW's career should cause any DC to worry overly much about him. Plus of course they could choose to put the S on the really slow Boldin rather than the faster KW. Or if their FS is not particularly good in pass coverage they could use a thrid CB. Lots of options. But more importantly every defense is put together to stop what the other team does best. In the rare case where that happens to be the TE going deep, they will indeed find a way to take that away.


And if they do that, they're asking for a week 1 type of performance from Boldin. VD is just a match-up nightmare. There are very few players in the league with the size, strength, and speed to stop him. And if a DC tries TOO hard to stop him, it will just open things up for other people on the offense.
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Chrissooner49er


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steadypimpin wrote:
I remember when VD scored his first TD against AZ and bowled like 2 guys over. I think after he broke his leg? He has been overly cautious.


Actually, it was his first catch ever and it went for a 35 yard TD with THREE DBs hanging on him...so yes, this one event must have stuck in my mind, but I was certain it wasn't the only time he had done such a thing.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kikuchiyo wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Kikuchiyo wrote:
They can't put a CB on Vernon if they're in a base defense, because that forces a S to cover our #2 WR. Kyle Williams isn't particularly good, but he runs a 4.3 and would smoke just about any S in the league (minus maybe Earl Thomas).


But this is my point. Vernon IS smoking defenses. We don't have to speculate on whether he might or he would as you are doing with KW. You're saying don't adjust the defense to take away the one guy who you know is killing you because just maybe there is another guy who might hurt you just as bad. First, nothing in KW's career should cause any DC to worry overly much about him. Plus of course they could choose to put the S on the really slow Boldin rather than the faster KW. Or if their FS is not particularly good in pass coverage they could use a thrid CB. Lots of options. But more importantly every defense is put together to stop what the other team does best. In the rare case where that happens to be the TE going deep, they will indeed find a way to take that away.


And if they do that, they're asking for a week 1 type of performance from Boldin. VD is just a match-up nightmare. There are very few players in the league with the size, strength, and speed to stop him. And if a DC tries TOO hard to stop him, it will just open things up for other people on the offense.


He's a matchup nightmare because teams continue trying to cover him in traditional ways. My point is that they will come to the conclusion sooner or later that something different is required for him. If you mean safeties or LBs can't stop him then I agree. But if you are including CBs then I disagree pretty strongly. His only true asset as a receiver is his speed, and teams deal with that all the time - just not out of the TE position. Strength has nothing to do with it since he doesn't fight off defenders to get open, he tries to avoid them and blow by them. Size has nothing to do with it since he has a particularly small throwing radius and is not going to outjump anyone for a ball. And quickness and moves have nothing to do with it since he has none of those. His asset as a receiver is his straight line speed, and lots and lots of dbs can deal with that. The problem is that teams still from time to time cover him with a LB, and often with a slow S.

As for a week 1 performance by Boldin, I don't know. He is the exact opposite of Vernon. Speed is not a concern with him; size and strength are. I'm not at all sure that he wouldn't be better covered by some safeties in the league then by some cbs. Unlike Vernon he does handfight and push his way down the field and lots of CBs are not strong enough to deal with that whereas, in theory at least, the safeties should be a little stronger.

Bottom line - most teams have two relatively fast WRs, maybe even with one who is not great but has really good straight line speed, and then they have a TE who is slower but uses his big body to get free. We have a WR who is more like many teams TE and a TE that is more like many teams WR. Not sure why it seems so unreasonable to you to think about doing what most teams always do - use the two CBs on the two fast recievers, including the one with great straight line speed, and use the S on the big-bodied but slower receiver. Or simply use an extra corner to cover Vernon - and you don't need to take out a d-lineman or LB to do that, you could take out one of the safeties. That still leaves 7 up front to stop the run and gives you good cover guys for two WRs and for Vernon, and still leaves a S to help with the run or roam deep on pass plays.
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Kikuchiyo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
He's a matchup nightmare because teams continue trying to cover him in traditional ways. My point is that they will come to the conclusion sooner or later that something different is required for him. If you mean safeties or LBs can't stop him then I agree. But if you are including CBs then I disagree pretty strongly. His only true asset as a receiver is his speed, and teams deal with that all the time - just not out of the TE position. Strength has nothing to do with it since he doesn't fight off defenders to get open, he tries to avoid them and blow by them. Size has nothing to do with it since he has a particularly small throwing radius and is not going to outjump anyone for a ball. And quickness and moves have nothing to do with it since he has none of those. His asset as a receiver is his straight line speed, and lots and lots of dbs can deal with that. The problem is that teams still from time to time cover him with a LB, and often with a slow S.


VD is not just a receiver though. He's a TE. That means half of his job is to help out in the blocking game, and we run the ball as much as any team in the league. If you put a CB on him, that CB will be on his back all game long and Gore will be going absolutely crazy out there. They need to match him up with someone whose at least as strong as Vernon so they won't get pushed around so bad in the run game. I mean, we have the 31st ranked passing attack in the league and the 3rd ranked rushing attack in the league. Which do you think DCs are more afraid of?

Quote:
As for a week 1 performance by Boldin, I don't know. He is the exact opposite of Vernon. Speed is not a concern with him; size and strength are. I'm not at all sure that he wouldn't be better covered by some safeties in the league then by some cbs. Unlike Vernon he does handfight and push his way down the field and lots of CBs are not strong enough to deal with that whereas, in theory at least, the safeties should be a little stronger.


Boldin may not be the fastest receiver out there, but he makes up for it by being an excellent route-runner with great ball skills. There aren't many safeties in the league with good enough man coverage skills to stick with him. He's averaging 70 yards a game this year with most team's #1 CB focusing on him and you think a S would do a better job of covering him?
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kikuchiyo wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
He's a matchup nightmare because teams continue trying to cover him in traditional ways. My point is that they will come to the conclusion sooner or later that something different is required for him. If you mean safeties or LBs can't stop him then I agree. But if you are including CBs then I disagree pretty strongly. His only true asset as a receiver is his speed, and teams deal with that all the time - just not out of the TE position. Strength has nothing to do with it since he doesn't fight off defenders to get open, he tries to avoid them and blow by them. Size has nothing to do with it since he has a particularly small throwing radius and is not going to outjump anyone for a ball. And quickness and moves have nothing to do with it since he has none of those. His asset as a receiver is his straight line speed, and lots and lots of dbs can deal with that. The problem is that teams still from time to time cover him with a LB, and often with a slow S.


VD is not just a receiver though. He's a TE. That means half of his job is to help out in the blocking game, and we run the ball as much as any team in the league. If you put a CB on him, that CB will be on his back all game long and Gore will be going absolutely crazy out there. They need to match him up with someone whose at least as strong as Vernon so they won't get pushed around so bad in the run game. I mean, we have the 31st ranked passing attack in the league and the 3rd ranked rushing attack in the league. Which do you think DCs are more afraid of?

Quote:
As for a week 1 performance by Boldin, I don't know. He is the exact opposite of Vernon. Speed is not a concern with him; size and strength are. I'm not at all sure that he wouldn't be better covered by some safeties in the league then by some cbs. Unlike Vernon he does handfight and push his way down the field and lots of CBs are not strong enough to deal with that whereas, in theory at least, the safeties should be a little stronger.


Boldin may not be the fastest receiver out there, but he makes up for it by being an excellent route-runner with great ball skills. There aren't many safeties in the league with good enough man coverage skills to stick with him. He's averaging 70 yards a game this year with most team's #1 CB focusing on him and you think a S would do a better job of covering him?


OK then. Sounds like you're saying there's no way to stop Vernon and he'll run wild against any team that doesn't happen to have a safety with high-end CB speed. I guess we'll see.

You might however give some thought to details behind the Boldin stats you're quoting. He got over 200 out of his less than 500 yards in his first game. Since then, in other words since defenses adjusted to address his skills, he's averaging less than 50 yards a game. Just an example of what I'm talking about - teams figure out what their opponents strengths are and then figure out how to take it away.
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We definitely need a deep threat at WR but there is none on the roster. This is why I wanted us to take a few shots to Baldwin deep to at least gain some respect. Obviously he is not a speedster, but our passing game has struggled with CBs that get physical with our WRs at the LOS. Davis has been great all season and should continue to have success once Manningham and Crabtree return.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

J-ALL-DAY wrote:
We definitely need a deep threat at WR but there is none on the roster. This is why I wanted us to take a few shots to Baldwin deep to at least gain some respect. Obviously he is not a speedster, but our passing game has struggled with CBs get physical with our WRs at the LOS. Davis has been great all season and should continue to have success once Manningham and Crabtree return.


I think we absolutely need to take a few shots to Baldwin and to McDoanld. I can't imagine us continuing to be successful with Boldin and Davis as our only targets. Hopefully Rio will be back in a couple weeks and give us another weapon.

What game did he get hurt in last year? Did he get to play when Kap was in there for us?
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J-ALL-DAY


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manningham got hurt vs the Seahawks which was week 16, and yes he did play with Kaepernick. They had pretty good chemistry, so I'm eager to see how good those two will be until Crabtree returns. Manningham has the ability to make tough catches in the middle of the field which is great.

Boldin, Manningham, and Crabtree are fine WRs, but none of them really could take the top off the defense. Crabtree makes his fair share of big plays, but a speedster would do wonders for this offense. Any one of you draft experts know anyone we could target in the 2nd or 3rd round?
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Kikuchiyo


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
OK then. Sounds like you're saying there's no way to stop Vernon and he'll run wild against any team that doesn't happen to have a safety with high-end CB speed. I guess we'll see.


Yeah, that's not what I said at all, and if you really think that you need better reading comprehension skills.

Kikuchiyo wrote:
You know which upcoming opponent I think has a good chance of bottling up Vernon for a game? Carolina. Kuechly's a great LBer and terrific in coverage. They also have former Raider Mike Mitchell whose a freak athlete and really coming into his own lately. Add in a D-line that can get after the QB and you have a recipe for a tough game.


I just said YOUR way of stopping VD wouldn't work. Sure, you can put a CB on him and take him out of the passing game, but then we'll just dial up the run and kill the defense that way.

Quote:
You might however give some thought to details behind the Boldin stats you're quoting. He got over 200 out of his less than 500 yards in his first game. Since then, in other words since defenses adjusted to address his skills, he's averaging less than 50 yards a game. Just an example of what I'm talking about - teams figure out what their opponents strengths are and then figure out how to take it away.


Earlier you said it took teams a while to figure out a team's strengths and weaknesses, and now they figured it out by week 1. Which one is it?
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kikuchiyo wrote:

Earlier you said it took teams a while to figure out a team's strengths and weaknesses, and now they figured it out by week 1. Which one is it?


As always with the false "which is it" scenario, it is not wholly one or the other. When a receiver rips another team for over 200 yards in a single game that is sufficient to tell other teams to watch out for that guy. But that is not anywhere near all there is to know about the other team's strengths and weaknesses or their entire offensive and defensive skill sets and tendencies. That takes time.

After game one did teams know that we would not be targeting our other receivers almost ever? Did they know that we would evolve from the pistol offense to a power running team in a matter of a few weeks? Did they know how often we would run the read-option, or the jumbo package? Did they know from only one game that Kap would rip apart a soft zone with big holes in it, but that our receivers would have a hard time getting open against tight coverage? After Vernon only gained a little over 200 yards in 5 games did other teams know that they definitely needed to worry about him going deep?

And that last sentence is part of the reason why they have not yet made evident adjustments. 220 yards in 5 games is good, but not necessarily the kind of impact that would cause a team to abandon its normal scheme. But after getting more yards than that in just the last two games, teams will now start to adjust their game plans to account for that.
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kikuchiyo wrote:

Yeah, that's not what I said at all, and if you really think that you need better reading comprehension skills.

I just said YOUR way of stopping VD wouldn't work. .


Kikuchiyo wrote:
You know which upcoming opponent I think has a good chance of bottling up Vernon for a game? Carolina. Kuechly's a great LBer and terrific in coverage. They also have former Raider Mike Mitchell whose a freak athlete and really coming into his own lately. Add in a D-line that can get after the QB and you have a recipe for a tough game.



I do understand what you're saying, and I'm disagreeing with it. My primary point was that teams will figure out how to defend Vernon, and he will not continue to run freely down the middle all season long. The specifics of how they do it don't matter, but they will.

The difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is reflected in your second quote. Your quote simply says pressure the QB and have a LB and S with good coverage skills. But that's not a plan, that's simply a better matchup. I'm saying that DCs will actually game plan for him. If they have a great cover S and LB, as you're saying Carolina does, then maybe their plan will be simple. But if not they will do something else. I know full well he is a matchup problem for most teams, and so those that think they have the bad end of that matchup will address the problem some other way. Game planning for the other teams weapons is the most fundamental part of what each team does while prepping for its next opponent. Vernon will not be averaging 125 yards per game for the rest of the year as he did the past two week no matter what the matchups might be.
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FG21_PW52


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big9erfan wrote:
Kikuchiyo wrote:

Yeah, that's not what I said at all, and if you really think that you need better reading comprehension skills.

I just said YOUR way of stopping VD wouldn't work. .


Kikuchiyo wrote:
You know which upcoming opponent I think has a good chance of bottling up Vernon for a game? Carolina. Kuechly's a great LBer and terrific in coverage. They also have former Raider Mike Mitchell whose a freak athlete and really coming into his own lately. Add in a D-line that can get after the QB and you have a recipe for a tough game.



I do understand what you're saying, and I'm disagreeing with it. My primary point was that teams will figure out how to defend Vernon, and he will not continue to run freely down the middle all season long. The specifics of how they do it don't matter, but they will.

The difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is reflected in your second quote. Your quote simply says pressure the QB and have a LB and S with good coverage skills. But that's not a plan, that's simply a better matchup. I'm saying that DCs will actually game plan for him. If they have a great cover S and LB, as you're saying Carolina does, then maybe their plan will be simple. But if not they will do something else. I know full well he is a matchup problem for most teams, and so those that think they have the bad end of that matchup will address the problem some other way. Game planning for the other teams weapons is the most fundamental part of what each team does while prepping for its next opponent. Vernon will not be averaging 125 yards per game for the rest of the year as he did the past two week no matter what the matchups might be.


Some teams will be able to better contain Vernon than others. A team like the Seahawks who have elite players all across their secondary will usually lock Vernon down pretty easily. Whereas a team like the Rams or Titans don't have an answer fror him.

Sometimes its coaching, sometimes its gameplan, other times its just how good or bad of a day a certain player is having. Either way, if Vernon keeps it up, I think he'll finally get that 1,000 yard season this year.

Timing is everything...
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big9erfan


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 24, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FG21_PW52 wrote:
big9erfan wrote:
Kikuchiyo wrote:

Yeah, that's not what I said at all, and if you really think that you need better reading comprehension skills.

I just said YOUR way of stopping VD wouldn't work. .


Kikuchiyo wrote:
You know which upcoming opponent I think has a good chance of bottling up Vernon for a game? Carolina. Kuechly's a great LBer and terrific in coverage. They also have former Raider Mike Mitchell whose a freak athlete and really coming into his own lately. Add in a D-line that can get after the QB and you have a recipe for a tough game.



I do understand what you're saying, and I'm disagreeing with it. My primary point was that teams will figure out how to defend Vernon, and he will not continue to run freely down the middle all season long. The specifics of how they do it don't matter, but they will.

The difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying is reflected in your second quote. Your quote simply says pressure the QB and have a LB and S with good coverage skills. But that's not a plan, that's simply a better matchup. I'm saying that DCs will actually game plan for him. If they have a great cover S and LB, as you're saying Carolina does, then maybe their plan will be simple. But if not they will do something else. I know full well he is a matchup problem for most teams, and so those that think they have the bad end of that matchup will address the problem some other way. Game planning for the other teams weapons is the most fundamental part of what each team does while prepping for its next opponent. Vernon will not be averaging 125 yards per game for the rest of the year as he did the past two week no matter what the matchups might be.


Some teams will be able to better contain Vernon than others. A team like the Seahawks who have elite players all across their secondary will usually lock Vernon down pretty easily. Whereas a team like the Rams or Titans don't have an answer fror him.

Sometimes its coaching, sometimes its gameplan, other times its just how good or bad of a day a certain player is having. Either way, if Vernon keeps it up, I think he'll finally get that 1,000 yard season this year.

Timing is everything...


Yeah. I agree. A defense can almost always take one guy out of the offense. The question is - at what cost? What are they giving up instead? When the matchups are favorable then they can play it straight up and not have to give up anything. If not, then it's a "pick your poison" kind of situation.
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