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OT Eugene Monroe traded to Baltimore Ravens for a 4th+5th
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sadjag


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
A top 10 LT is worth more than a 4th.

A top 10 LT with no long-term contract in place is not. Besides, we're receiving a 4th, 5th, and 6th in 2014. If we didn't trade him for what we could get, we would have gotten just ONE of those picks in 2015.
I see your argument and agree but you didn't respond to the 2nd part of my post. With the highest draft pick this franchise has ever had on a team completely full of holes we drafted a LT when we already had a good one on the roster ( we have more than enough cap room to resign him). We didn't fill a need with that unbelievably valuable pick.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
I'm not sure that his value long term is that much of a bargaining chip for us when the alternative is "hey, you won't give us a deal? We'll just sign him in the offseason and you'll get nothing."


It is when you say, 'hey, you don't like it...we'll trade him to someone else who will then have a leg up in re-signing him'.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tugboat wrote:
iPwn wrote:
I'm not sure that his value long term is that much of a bargaining chip for us when the alternative is "hey, you won't give us a deal? We'll just sign him in the offseason and you'll get nothing."


It is when you say, 'hey, you don't like it...we'll trade him to someone else who will then have a leg up in re-signing him'.
And if the market isn't there, which clearly it wasn't or else we would have sent him somewhere else for more?
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Tugboat wrote:
iPwn wrote:
I'm not sure that his value long term is that much of a bargaining chip for us when the alternative is "hey, you won't give us a deal? We'll just sign him in the offseason and you'll get nothing."


It is when you say, 'hey, you don't like it...we'll trade him to someone else who will then have a leg up in re-signing him'.
And if the market isn't there, which clearly it wasn't or else we would have sent him somewhere else for more?


Either jump on what seemed to be an 'interested' market around draft time.

Or wait and see what shakes out. Would the Ravens offer really be that much worse 2 weeks from now?
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tugboat wrote:
Either jump on what seemed to be an 'interested' market around draft time.

Or wait and see what shakes out. Would the Ravens offer really be that much worse 2 weeks from now?
The first part goes back to the idea that he must have been the one speaking out. Were they interested in keeping him long term until he told them that he wasn't coming back?

If he gets injured, or starts not trying hard at all because of his desire to leave, we loose all leverage.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sadjag wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
A top 10 LT is worth more than a 4th.

A top 10 LT with no long-term contract in place is not. Besides, we're receiving a 4th, 5th, and 6th in 2014. If we didn't trade him for what we could get, we would have gotten just ONE of those picks in 2015.
is that 4th 5th and 6th confirmed?


Seems as though it is. ESPN says so at least and Ryan O said it too IIRC

Tugboat wrote:
It's week 5 though. It's not like there's not still time for a playoff bound team to get catastrophically desperate due to injury/poor play, whatever. It's not the trade deadline just yet, we didn't have to trade Monroe this week. Who knows. And it's not like trading Monroe was 'off the table' earlier either, back around draft day and FA when teams have been known to go full retard.

I mean, sure trading Monroe nets us a bit more than not trading him...but not by a whole lot, and that's the real issue here. We would have been barely worse off by just not bothering to make a deal. I'd have liked to see a lot more incentive thrown into the trade, personally.


What happens if Monroe got hurt against the Rams? We'd get far less.

And it's not just "a bit more". A 2014 4th, 5th, AND 6th is far, far more than a 2015 4th, 5th, OR, 6th.

I find it interesting that you believe we should have gotten more value for him (and that's why you seem meh about this trade) but then you're fine with giving up substantial value so we can get 12 more games out of Monroe. It doesn't make sense to sacrifice draft value for 12 games when we won't even be contending.

Tugboat wrote:
He wasn't going to do anything of value for us. But that doesn't mean what he can do doesn't have value to other teams, is what i'm saying.

Negotiation wise...if Caldwell walked into talks with the Ravens and they open with, 'why don't you give us your quality starting LT for a few late round picks? because let's face it, he's not going to help your team at all this year.' That's a fair point...but it's also not hard to see the obvious counterpoint of: 'well, what is 12 weeks of fixing your horrid offensive line play and potentially locking down your LT spot for the next 5-6 years worth to the RAVENS?' Because the answers are going to be different, value is all relative to the situation. Caldwell had a commodity that other teams want...that's a power position. Particularly given the fact that Monroe is likely to be much more open to re-signing with a contending team.

Basically...Monroe's value to us doesn't really matter in that negotiation. His value to the OTHER organization is what matters, and that's higher


The other team is going to say "well, there isn't a contract in place and we don't have room to make a contract offer at this exact moment... we don't want to give up a 2nd for one season". His contract was detrimental to negotiations. Unless additional details come out, it's incredibly cynical and naive to believe that Caldwell didn't get as much value as he could out of the Monroe trade.

sadjag wrote:
I see your argument and agree but you didn't respond to the 2nd part of my post. With the highest draft pick this franchise has ever had on a team completely full of holes we drafted a LT when we already had a good one on the roster ( we have more than enough cap room to resign him). We didn't fill a need with that unbelievably valuable pick.


Indications are that Monroe wasn't going to re-sign with us and it is to be assumed that is because of the rebuilding nature of the team. If he were to leave this offseason, we'd have a hole at LT. Now, we don't. We have the prospect that many believed to be the absolute best in the draft. I'm not sure what the issue is. Especially when you expand that to many of our big holes not having adequate value at #2 in the 2013 draft.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Tugboat wrote:
Either jump on what seemed to be an 'interested' market around draft time.

Or wait and see what shakes out. Would the Ravens offer really be that much worse 2 weeks from now?
The first part goes back to the idea that he must have been the one speaking out. Were they interested in keeping him long term until he told them that he wasn't coming back?

If he gets injured, or starts not trying hard at all because of his desire to leave, we loose all leverage.


But why is this just something we're finding out now?

It's not like Caldwell headed into this season unawares that it would be a gongshow of terrible awfulness through and through. He 'built' this roster after all.

There were plenty of outsiders asking questions about where Monroe's future with the Jaguars lay, prior to the season. Especially as the draft neared and it looked more and more likely we'd go LT @#2.

I was one of the people who tossed around the idea of moving Monroe immediately at that point. But it was largely dismissed as, 'no but dem bookends doe!'

It isn't all that difficult to figure that hey...maybe taking a LT at #2 overall in the NFL entry draft is going to send some sort of message to your incumbent starter at LT. Did Caldwell not sit down with Monroe and really hash through where this team was headed and what Eugene's thoughts/feelings/desires were regarding that direction?
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tugboat wrote:
It isn't all that difficult to figure that hey...maybe taking a LT at #2 overall in the NFL entry draft is going to send some sort of message to your incumbent starter at LT. Did Caldwell not sit down with Monroe and really hash through where this team was headed and what Eugene's thoughts/feelings/desires were regarding that direction?
You'd expect yes. But if the way the season went was more frustrating than Monroe thought it would be, enough so that he would be frustrated enough to speak out about the situation, is it possible that he went from feeling okay about resigning to just wanting out? We saw that attitude change with Pot Roast last year as well, so it's not out of the question.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
sadjag wrote:
Adrenaline_Flux wrote:
A top 10 LT is worth more than a 4th.

A top 10 LT with no long-term contract in place is not. Besides, we're receiving a 4th, 5th, and 6th in 2014. If we didn't trade him for what we could get, we would have gotten just ONE of those picks in 2015.
is that 4th 5th and 6th confirmed?


Seems as though it is. ESPN says so at least and Ryan O said it too IIRC

Tugboat wrote:
It's week 5 though. It's not like there's not still time for a playoff bound team to get catastrophically desperate due to injury/poor play, whatever. It's not the trade deadline just yet, we didn't have to trade Monroe this week. Who knows. And it's not like trading Monroe was 'off the table' earlier either, back around draft day and FA when teams have been known to go full retard.

I mean, sure trading Monroe nets us a bit more than not trading him...but not by a whole lot, and that's the real issue here. We would have been barely worse off by just not bothering to make a deal. I'd have liked to see a lot more incentive thrown into the trade, personally.


What happens if Monroe got hurt against the Rams? We'd get far less.

And it's not just "a bit more". A 2014 4th, 5th, AND 6th is far, far more than a 2015 4th, 5th, OR, 6th.

I find it interesting that you believe we should have gotten more value for him (and that's why you seem meh about this trade) but then you're fine with giving up substantial value so we can get 12 more games out of Monroe. It doesn't make sense to sacrifice draft value for 12 games when we won't even be contending.

Tugboat wrote:
He wasn't going to do anything of value for us. But that doesn't mean what he can do doesn't have value to other teams, is what i'm saying.

Negotiation wise...if Caldwell walked into talks with the Ravens and they open with, 'why don't you give us your quality starting LT for a few late round picks? because let's face it, he's not going to help your team at all this year.' That's a fair point...but it's also not hard to see the obvious counterpoint of: 'well, what is 12 weeks of fixing your horrid offensive line play and potentially locking down your LT spot for the next 5-6 years worth to the RAVENS?' Because the answers are going to be different, value is all relative to the situation. Caldwell had a commodity that other teams want...that's a power position. Particularly given the fact that Monroe is likely to be much more open to re-signing with a contending team.

Basically...Monroe's value to us doesn't really matter in that negotiation. His value to the OTHER organization is what matters, and that's higher


The other team is going to say "well, there isn't a contract in place and we don't have room to make a contract offer at this exact moment... we don't want to give up a 2nd for one season". His contract was detrimental to negotiations. Unless additional details come out, it's incredibly cynical and naive to believe that Caldwell didn't get as much value as he could out of the Monroe trade.

sadjag wrote:
I see your argument and agree but you didn't respond to the 2nd part of my post. With the highest draft pick this franchise has ever had on a team completely full of holes we drafted a LT when we already had a good one on the roster ( we have more than enough cap room to resign him). We didn't fill a need with that unbelievably valuable pick.


Indications are that Monroe wasn't going to re-sign with us and it is to be assumed that is because of the rebuilding nature of the team. If he were to leave this offseason, we'd have a hole at LT. Now, we don't. We have the prospect that many believed to be the absolute best in the draft. I'm not sure what the issue is. Especially when you expand that to many of our big holes not having adequate value at #2 in the 2013 draft.


If hypothetically, Monroe were to have been injured in the next couple weeks then sure...you lose. But a good part of driving a hard bargain is risk and a roll of the dice. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. If you can leverage more return out of Monroe 2 weeks from now, i roll that dice. Monroe has been remarkably healthy the last couple years, that's part of his appeal. Why not roll the dice?

It really comes back to what ipwn is saying...and for me, i don't really understand why it's a sudden issue that just came up.

A great manager is going to make sure his players are on the same page here, and if Monroe wasn't on board with this rebuild that Caldwell is orchestrating (and seriously, this is a nuke everything start from zero approach), why wasn't he aware his impending FA, high-end starting LT wasn't on board with this sort of process?

'An Unamed Vet speaks out in private'. ---> Immediately ditch Monroe like he's a cancer? Was he really not concerned up until this very week? Getting a nice haul out of a draft is one part of a GMs job, as is trading. But often forgotten is the interpersonal aspect, and it's just mindblowing to me that Caldwell would've been completely unaware that Monroe was heading towards being unhappy with playing losing games in Jacksonville this year and leaning towards not re-signing here...prior to him 'speaking out' after our offense put up yet another dismal showing last week.
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Tugboat wrote:
It isn't all that difficult to figure that hey...maybe taking a LT at #2 overall in the NFL entry draft is going to send some sort of message to your incumbent starter at LT. Did Caldwell not sit down with Monroe and really hash through where this team was headed and what Eugene's thoughts/feelings/desires were regarding that direction?
You'd expect yes. But if the way the season went was more frustrating than Monroe thought it would be, enough so that he would be frustrated enough to speak out about the situation, is it possible that he went from feeling okay about resigning to just wanting out? We saw that attitude change with Pot Roast last year as well, so it's not out of the question.
For reference, Knighton told me late in the season that he wanted to be resigned by the Jags, but chose to take a cheap deal where he wasn't guaranteed a starting spot just to get out of here.
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Tugboat


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Tugboat wrote:
It isn't all that difficult to figure that hey...maybe taking a LT at #2 overall in the NFL entry draft is going to send some sort of message to your incumbent starter at LT. Did Caldwell not sit down with Monroe and really hash through where this team was headed and what Eugene's thoughts/feelings/desires were regarding that direction?
You'd expect yes. But if the way the season went was more frustrating than Monroe thought it would be, enough so that he would be frustrated enough to speak out about the situation, is it possible that he went from feeling okay about resigning to just wanting out? We saw that attitude change with Pot Roast last year as well, so it's not out of the question.


It's very possible.

But then, what if we get a bit further into the season and we're headed for a #1 pick and real QB and REAL offense next year? If he's swung from maybe staying to definitely not...maybe he swings right back if it looks like the offense could at least be exciting and competitive next year?

It just seems so strange to me...that 4 weeks in, Caldwell's team would be so bad that he HAD TO trade his starting LT who was previously on board with a rebuild. Did he not convey to Monroe that this team was going to be hysterically bad this year? Or did Caldwell honestly not know that the team was going to be hysterically bad this year? Either way... Confused
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AngryPirate


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So we traded Monroe and a 4th round pick in 2015 for a 4,5,6 round picks this year. So pretty much we got a 5,6 round pick for him, lol.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who says Monroe was planning to leave the entire time? It's entirely plausible that he wanted to see how the season would go first before figuring out what he wanted to do. At this point, he probably figured that the offense doesn't fit what he would like and he doesn't want to be around for another QB. He's already went through one rookie QB in Gabbert. After speaking out, they sat down and talked with him and realized that he has decided he isn't coming back after this season and they shipped him out for the best deal they could get.

We may feel, even on a one year deal, that he is worth more than a 2014 4th, 5th, and 6th but we aren't in charge of football operations of any teams. Based purely off of reason, I believe Caldwell likely did his due diligence when it came to trading Monroe. It makes no sense for Caldwell not to get as much as he can for Monroe. A 1st or 2nd for a guy can't just be manufactured because we feel it's appropriate - it has to actually be offered and it's obvious that wasn't the case here.

A 4th, 5th, and 6th is nothing to scoff at especially when the alternative was a lot less in a later draft. We're rebuilding and this is the reality of a rebuild. Monroe is gone, but now we have 11 selections in the upcoming draft. We can use all 11 or we can use them to move around and acquire more draft selections or move up for a guy we covet. It gives us a lot of flexibility.

It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that we end up moving, let's say, one of our 4ths for a 2015 3rd. At that point do we not only have a day two selection in the 2015 draft, but we still retain a selection in the 4th round in 2014 as well.

I'm not in love with the trade, but I think it's reasonable and I have no reason to believe that it wasn't the best possible outcome for us. What is done is done and I'm excited for additional draft selections, regardless of what happens with Monroe or even at this particular moment in time if those selections pan out.
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AngryPirate wrote:
So we traded Monroe and a 4th round pick in 2015 for a 4,5,6 round picks this year. So pretty much we got a 5,6 round pick for him, lol.


... we didn't send a 4th...
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Adrenaline_Flux


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, it seems as though it is either a 4th & 5th or 4th, 5th, & 6th we are receiving. Doesn't appear to be anything completely official yet.
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