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Time for mckenzie to go
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5754
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, time, but no on other fronts.

In 2 years and 1 1/2 FA periods etc McKenzie has not added any impact players. It's fine to say that these guys are in need of time, but what this team needed more than anything was a couple true draft finds. And McKenzie didn't deliver. Immediate impact players. Other teams found them, we didn't apparently.

I say he definitely needs another year, but that doesn't mean his drafts don't look like mediocrity. They do. I am getting the distinct impression he is all about value and finding it in the later rounds, but that perhaps he is too obsessed with value and therefore is mostly only good at that. What we need and have needed is to find genuine impact players. He has not shown any capacity to discover an impact player. Let's hope that changes. It's looking like the same issues we had with Al Davis - good in late rounds and bad in early to mid ones. We're better with undrafteds, but both regimes have failed entirely to draft homegrown stars who make this team better to the point of creating wins.


I mean, every GM has hits and misses. But I think it is clear he's made some definite errors here. Flynn for one, add Wilson to that. That 3 draft picks and Desmond Bryant's money going to complete and total non contributors 4 games into their first season. NOT GOOD, and there's no spin on it. Matt Flynn got Desmond Bryant's money, and it is no doubt affecting us right now. Tony Bergstrom was a 3rd rounder, who sucked totally and is now on IR and quite possible to be cut next year. A G, in the 3rd, who sucks. Sorry, but that is a bad, bad pick. We needed impact there, and threw it in the trash. That whole draft has become a nearly non draft. Mistakes we could not afford.
As thin as last year's draft was, he did not do particularly well with those picks. We know he can find cheap solid contributors in FA, and we know he can find solid players in UDFA. But can he find a star in the 3rd round, or correctly identify the stars in the 1st? So far, no. Not even close.

The best thing I've seen from him is the courage to admit mistakes very quickly and move forward. And he also has had the courage to identify issues rapidly and put an end to endless waiting on guys or scholarships. Nice, and there's alot of things I like about the guy.
However, his scouting department has done poorly so far. Even with what they had to work with, poorly. And that is a concern moving forward.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Yes, time, but no on other fronts.

In 2 years and 1 1/2 FA periods etc McKenzie has not added any impact players. It's fine to say that these guys are in need of time, but what this team needed more than anything was a couple true draft finds. And McKenzie didn't deliver. Immediate impact players. Other teams found them, we didn't apparently.


This is all relative. Certain players are going to thrive or pop earlier in different situations. A lot easier to be a young player doing good things on a talented team than a team like the Raiders.

Impact picks are generally found in rounds 1 and 2. Reggie has 2 picks there and neither has had a significant amount of time to to develop.

holyghost wrote:
I say he definitely needs another year, but that doesn't mean his drafts don't look like mediocrity. They do. I am getting the distinct impression he is all about value and finding it in the later rounds, but that perhaps he is too obsessed with value and therefore is mostly only good at that. What we need and have needed is to find genuine impact players. He has not shown any capacity to discover an impact player. Let's hope that changes. It's looking like the same issues we had with Al Davis - good in late rounds and bad in early to mid ones. We're better with undrafteds, but both regimes have failed entirely to draft homegrown stars who make this team better to the point of creating wins.


Mediocrity based on what? They have barely had time to develop and he was left w/ nothing in 2013 as far as draft picks go. All he's had to work w/ until 2013's draft is value.

holyghost wrote:
I mean, every GM has hits and misses. But I think it is clear he's made some definite errors here. Flynn for one, add Wilson to that. That 3 draft picks and Desmond Bryant's money going to complete and total non contributors 4 games into their first season. NOT GOOD, and there's no spin on it. Matt Flynn got Desmond Bryant's money, and it is no doubt affecting us right now. Tony Bergstrom was a 3rd rounder, who sucked totally and is now on IR and quite possible to be cut next year. A G, in the 3rd, who sucks. Sorry, but that is a bad, bad pick. We needed impact there, and threw it in the trash. That whole draft has become a nearly non draft. Mistakes we could not afford.
As thin as last year's draft was, he did not do particularly well with those picks. We know he can find cheap solid contributors in FA, and we know he can find solid players in UDFA. But can he find a star in the 3rd round, or correctly identify the stars in the 1st? So far, no. Not even close.


Bryant and Flynn are not tied. He simply didn't want to overpay for Bryant when he could pick up Walker on the cheap. Not saying I agree w/ it, but that's how it went down.

And LOL at finding "impact" w/ a compensatory 3rd round pick. What player taken after him has been and "impact" player?

And you have no idea to this point if he has found a star in the early rounds. It's WAY to early to judge the picks. CBs take a minute to develop. Judging right now is misguided and impatient (which is the general temperature around here it seems).

holyghost wrote:
The best thing I've seen from him is the courage to admit mistakes very quickly and move forward. And he also has had the courage to identify issues rapidly and put an end to endless waiting on guys or scholarships. Nice, and there's alot of things I like about the guy.
However, his scouting department has done poorly so far. Even with what they had to work with, poorly. And that is a concern moving forward.


How about replacing 9 starters on defense and improving a unit that has been an embarrassment against the run for a decade. That's pretty encouraging to me personally.

You are judging the scouting dept based on what? Because the picks are not meeting your lofty (3rd round comp pick impact player) expectations they've done poorly?

I just don't understand how anyone can judge draft classes this early. On a bad team at that. It's just dumb IMO, but I'm the patient type.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're taking my look into to be more extreme than I am representing it.

Regardless, what would I consider impact? I'd take Kiko Alonso for instance right now. Sio Moore talks a big game, but Alonso is the LB league leader for rookies in tackles, and he shows up and has showed up as a player immediately. I'd say you could look around the league and see "impact" players. And what I mean by impact is pretty clear. They make an immediate impact on the quality of your team. Anyone can look in hindsight at the 2012 draft Bergstrom was in and see the better players taken after him. I won't do that. I don't want to burn him on one pick, but now we are talking about 13-15 picks overall and none of them have actually made this team anything more than marginally or laterally better right away. I am concerned with this. In his defense, looking at that draft list - it looks like a pretty bad draft year overall.

I'll give him plenty more time, but he has yet to draft one single guy who is an impact player, even in a loose definition of it. Nor have any been signed other than Woodson. It's not condemning, but it is also not fair to overlook it. I have to admit, and I don't want to, if his draft classes continue on the arc they are currently on they would have to be considered disastrous.


AFA Flynn money going to Bryant, whether or not it actually went to Bryant isn't the point. It's a significant amount of money that could have went to any high end player, and instead went in the garbage after 4 games of one season. There's no success there for McKenzie to be the least bit proud of, nor have quite a few of his additions so far resulted in any particular success.

In the beginning I was very proud of the way he cut the fat. Now I am slowly growing concerned with his ability to replace those players with performers good enough to field a playoff team. A playoff team which must, MUST, at some point include star players and playmakers of some kind. Right now we have so very few, and they all seem to be Al Davis holdovers and not McKenzie additions.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and I'm not trying to judge the draft classes yet. I am however judging their measure of immediate impact. Considering how badly immediate impact has been needed to emerge from this decade long nightmare, I would say it is of some importance. I see other "rebuilding" teams all of a sudden getting better, some quite a bit better, and I am left wondering why we are still on the long, slow, hard road toward "slightly betterville".
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Tacos


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Oh, and I'm not trying to judge the draft classes yet. I am however judging their measure of immediate impact. Considering how badly immediate impact has been needed to emerge from this decade long nightmare, I would say it is of some importance. I see other "rebuilding" teams all of a sudden getting better, some quite a bit better, and I am left wondering why we are still on the long, slow, hard road toward "slightly betterville".
The majority of which required a stud QB and already had something in place. No team besides the Jaguars lacks as much as we have.

Tennessee and maybe Miami are the only teams I can think of that are doing well without a stud QB, but their teams weren't full on rebuild like we've been. (Well, maybe Miami was but they've also spent a ton of money in FA)

Our improvement on defense is not something to overlook. We aren't great, maybe not even average as far as talent goes, but the team seems to be overachieving in that regard.

It's pretty hard for our rookies to really contribute with the lack of talent on our team.

Many want a QB next year, I'm not opposed to that idea but we better address our offensive and defensive lines as a priority in either the draft or FA. Look at what the two young DT's are doing in Carolina, we could have had that. (hindsight is 20/20, I know)
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I 'd rather have a player make an impact for years rather than a few weeks as a rookie. The whole term impact is so stupid as well.
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DOCLEW 28


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like what Reggie has done more for how he turned this defense around. They were straight ballin against the run last week. But the offense behind Flynn was horrid. We are solid if not spectacular at CB and we are sick up front against the run. Our linebackers are solid too. It will only get better with more young guys like Sio Moore and Hayden.

And remember, this is year one of a total rebuild after having to clear the shelves last season. You really cannot judge Reggie when this team is still incomplete. The only issue I have with Reggie is not improving the OL instead of taking a CB in the 1st round. But if Watson pans out then its a push.
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91jmay


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost you sound so prisoner of the moment. You would have called Tyson Alualu a great pick after he had a good start to his rookie season, and has done nothing since. Wanting Kiki Alonso instead of Watson after 4 games is totally ridiculous. Especially as MW hasn't played yet.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

91jmay wrote:
holyghost you sound so prisoner of the moment. You would have called Tyson Alualu a great pick after he had a good start to his rookie season, and has done nothing since. Wanting Kiki Alonso instead of Watson after 4 games is totally ridiculous. Especially as MW hasn't played yet.



Noooo. I'm just presenting the other side. I'm patient, as patient as anyone. Watson in fact is a pick I think has the potential to be a very good pick.
I'm not about to be roundly criticized because those in support of McKenzie have decided to take what I am saying well farther than it should be taken. There's too much extremism about every discussion and point made on this board. As if I and others are somehow branded immediately in a wide category just because I see and say there might be some issues with the guy's scouting, and that he's made errors so far.

I just think McKenzie apologist sentiment should only go so far at this point. No matter how well he ends up doing or not doing, and no matter how the drafts pan out for the future, there are concerns emerging here. You guys can't even admit there are concerns. And a couple pretty crappy errors that will never pan out, one of which is Flynn. Not a fan of the Green Bay pipeline either, mostly because of Flynn. It has worked out with Ross and Woodson which is good, not so with a bunch of others.

All I am saying is that I see the seed of issues here. Not that time won't show those issues to be false, potentially. But still, the seed is there and any rational fan has to at least admit that possibility.
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dawsonleery


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many free agents and draft picks from Reggie have done nothing. Our best players are Lamarr Houston & Terrell Pryor and when they come back Veldheer and Branch, lol. Reggie's mark is yet to be made.

I know CB is probably the 2nd hardest position to play in the NFL, I don't expect DJ to become a good cover corner until at least year 3. If he continues to put in the work he'll be alright. But yet Raiders lack an instant impact from there 1st round pick, AGAIN.
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RaiderX


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know he missed a game, but I honestly though Sio Moore would have more of an impact early. Only has 2 tackles and they came in one game. Hopefully things get better.

Not worried about Hayden. Guy missed a lot of football activity because of the injury and scar tissue removal. I mean look at how Patrick Peterson's rookie year went. Guy got burned constantly and was pretty much only a return specialist. Now he's looked at as one of the top corners. Morris Claiborne only has 1 INT so far in his career. I have no doubt DJ will vastly improve next year with a full camp under his belt.
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Raidin


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
91jmay wrote:
holyghost you sound so prisoner of the moment. You would have called Tyson Alualu a great pick after he had a good start to his rookie season, and has done nothing since. Wanting Kiki Alonso instead of Watson after 4 games is totally ridiculous. Especially as MW hasn't played yet.



Noooo. I'm just presenting the other side. I'm patient, as patient as anyone. Watson in fact is a pick I think has the potential to be a very good pick.
I'm not about to be roundly criticized because those in support of McKenzie have decided to take what I am saying well farther than it should be taken. There's too much extremism about every discussion and point made on this board. As if I and others are somehow branded immediately in a wide category just because I see and say there might be some issues with the guy's scouting, and that he's made errors so far.

I just think McKenzie apologist sentiment should only go so far at this point. No matter how well he ends up doing or not doing, and no matter how the drafts pan out for the future, there are concerns emerging here. You guys can't even admit there are concerns. And a couple pretty crappy errors that will never pan out, one of which is Flynn. Not a fan of the Green Bay pipeline either, mostly because of Flynn. It has worked out with Ross and Woodson which is good, not so with a bunch of others.

All I am saying is that I see the seed of issues here. Not that time won't show those issues to be false, potentially. But still, the seed is there and any rational fan has to at least admit that possibility.



I think it's only a concern if someone is stupid enough to think a gM should get every decision correct.
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Matt Flynn is going to do a good job. He has a poise about him and that's good to see. I am ecstatic to welcome him into the Raider Nation.
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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
holyghost wrote:
91jmay wrote:
holyghost you sound so prisoner of the moment. You would have called Tyson Alualu a great pick after he had a good start to his rookie season, and has done nothing since. Wanting Kiki Alonso instead of Watson after 4 games is totally ridiculous. Especially as MW hasn't played yet.



Noooo. I'm just presenting the other side. I'm patient, as patient as anyone. Watson in fact is a pick I think has the potential to be a very good pick.
I'm not about to be roundly criticized because those in support of McKenzie have decided to take what I am saying well farther than it should be taken. There's too much extremism about every discussion and point made on this board. As if I and others are somehow branded immediately in a wide category just because I see and say there might be some issues with the guy's scouting, and that he's made errors so far.

I just think McKenzie apologist sentiment should only go so far at this point. No matter how well he ends up doing or not doing, and no matter how the drafts pan out for the future, there are concerns emerging here. You guys can't even admit there are concerns. And a couple pretty crappy errors that will never pan out, one of which is Flynn. Not a fan of the Green Bay pipeline either, mostly because of Flynn. It has worked out with Ross and Woodson which is good, not so with a bunch of others.

All I am saying is that I see the seed of issues here. Not that time won't show those issues to be false, potentially. But still, the seed is there and any rational fan has to at least admit that possibility.



I think it's only a concern if someone is stupid enough to think a gM should get every decision correct.
not every decision but get more right than wrong or at the least 50-50
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not asking for everything right, or even 50-50. Realistically, right now McKenzie is working at about 10-90 or worse, which is not too good. With no, not one, true hits. Time, yes. Is he doing great? Nah. Wake me when he finds one great young player, to start.
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
I'm not asking for everything right, or even 50-50. Realistically, right now McKenzie is working at about 10-90 or worse, which is not too good. With no, not one, true hits. Time, yes. Is he doing great? Nah. Wake me when he finds one great young player, to start.




Got to love the Ritalin generation. Laughing
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Matt Flynn is going to do a good job. He has a poise about him and that's good to see. I am ecstatic to welcome him into the Raider Nation.
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