Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Offensive Line Woes
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Baltimore Ravens
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
diamondbull424


Moderator
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 12969
Location: Baltimore, MD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
Right player, right price is what I was thinking of, but is a center the right player in their eyes? Who knows. Brown is the only example to go off of for the Ravens. It probably does vary depending on the situation but some teams value certain positions less than others. Guard is different from center like tackle is different from guard so the Yanda/Grubbs/Osemele moves aren't not something I think is relevant here. That's just the way I look at the offensive line though. The offensive line as a whole is a unit but separation still exists. For what it's worth I do think interior players are just as important as tackles. Especially for a quarterback like Flacco.

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the drafting of Gradkowski because that's not something I was hinting at or trying use as an example. They needed to see what he could do before they went out and invested anything else in the position (well, besides acquiring Shipley on the cheap but that barely counts in my opinion). I'm not sure if Baltimore will be in a position to draft a center prospect on the level of Mangold this year (nobody sticks out as an elite option) so I'm not particularly worried (err, not the right word but it gets the point across) about that situation playing out.

1) I disagree. It is very much relevant in that just as Ben Grubbs proved to be a probowl caliber talent that we didn't resign along the interior of the line, so was Jason Brown. Both Grubbs and Brown moved on as free agents after we didn't exceed the $6m range in our efforts for resigning them.
John Clayton @ESPN wrote:
Talks between the Ravens and Brown broke off Thursday night when he tried to get the team to move off their contract offer, which was in the $6 million range. Brown was hoping to land $7.5 million to $8 million a year in free agency.


We similarly only offered Ben Grubbs $6.5m IIRC. If the Ravens truly didn't value the center position as much as they value the OG position, then why would they offer similar money to a probowl caliber talent that they were hoping to keep? Heck, with the inflation of NFL contracts, one might say we even offered Brown MORE than what we offered Grubbs.

2) The point of me mentioning Gradkowski has to do with the above point. Gradkowski was further proof that the front office was indeed willing to divert draft resources to the center position, even while having Matt Birk as a starting option. Him being the heir apparent also was a reason for why they wouldn't have spent further/greater draft resources on the position until having given him a chance.

But even then, the front office traded with Indy for AQ Shipley to create more competition for the center spot... diverting further resources to the center position. That shows me that it's not a position that they're content with, but rather one where they're proactively going out to improve. I simply don't see any evidence to accuse them of neglecting the position on draft day that would suggest them not selecting a center high.

3) Nick Mangold was probably the only truly slam dunk center option that pundits truly agreed on. Alex Mack had guys that believed in him and he had detractors. Ryan Kalil had detractors. Maurkice Pouncey had detractors. Travis Frederick obviously has had detractors.

I'm not sure if Travis Swanson is on Nick Mangold's level... because I never actually scouted Mangold as a college prospect, only read his breakdowns. I was just becoming familiar with the draft at that point. But I think Swanson is definitely a franchise center option. I see him as somewhere in between Alex Mack and Stefen Wisniewski. I'm not sure I would take him in the 20s of the first round, but I'd DEFINITELY take him at the top of the 2nd round. Grasu is someone I need to see more of, but he also looks like he could be a franchise center option.

So I definitely think center is a position that we should be concerned about drafting. It definitely has at least one option that I am really high on and possibly two.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
diamondbull424


Moderator
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 12969
Location: Baltimore, MD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Well from reading Harbs' presser today, looks like they might be considering going back to a power run scheme instead or in addition to the zone scheme we currently run.

Which, to me, makes no sense because changing schemes doesn't change the fact we can't account for blitzing LB'ers through the freaking A and B gaps. Not only that, Rice isn't a power back - never was. He's a finesse back, and right now he's really not even that. NOT ONLY THAT, but Harbs also said we have the personnel currently on the roster to fix said running problems, but honestly unless Shipley can fix things, we do not have the personnel on the roster to fix our problem at Center.

Seems to me, once again, Harbs isn't willing to put the responsibility of failure on his coaching staff. Maybe in 4 years or so he'll finally figure it out in week 14 or whatever and fire Moeller. Until then, here's to wishful thinking.

That's actually good news.

Obviously what we're doing currently isn't working. Perhaps a MBS will be easier for our line to understand and thus make it easier for them to understand who they're supposed to be hitting.

Perhaps it simplifies things and keeps them from having to overthink things.

I mean, Harbaugh was never REALLY going to fire someone anyway. We know how he likes to operate. But at least if they're looking to change up the OL concepts, it means he's getting into someone's ear... or someone is feeling the pressure to improve our running game.

We're just too talented an offensive line minus one position to not be able to run block well. Oher, KO, and Yanda all specialized in run blocking coming out of college. There's no reason for them to not provide a really strong run blocking unit together.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 20064
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, a Matt Birk return is officially ruled out, unless he know's how to play TE or linebacker Laughing

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/The-Caw-Matt-Birk-Lost-75-Pounds-Trying-To-Model/374a4f02-c374-495d-80e6-c07a6643b332?mobile-id=771423&media-type=N
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 7175
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
1) I disagree. It is very much relevant in that just as Ben Grubbs proved to be a probowl caliber talent that we didn't resign along the interior of the line, so was Jason Brown. Both Grubbs and Brown moved on as free agents after we didn't exceed the $6m range in our efforts for resigning them.
John Clayton @ESPN wrote:
Talks between the Ravens and Brown broke off Thursday night when he tried to get the team to move off their contract offer, which was in the $6 million range. Brown was hoping to land $7.5 million to $8 million a year in free agency.


We similarly only offered Ben Grubbs $6.5m IIRC. If the Ravens truly didn't value the center position as much as they value the OG position, then why would they offer similar money to a probowl caliber talent that they were hoping to keep? Heck, with the inflation of NFL contracts, one might say we even offered Brown MORE than what we offered Grubbs.

2) The point of me mentioning Gradkowski has to do with the above point. Gradkowski was further proof that the front office was indeed willing to divert draft resources to the center position, even while having Matt Birk as a starting option. Him being the heir apparent also was a reason for why they wouldn't have spent further/greater draft resources on the position until having given him a chance.

But even then, the front office traded with Indy for AQ Shipley to create more competition for the center spot... diverting further resources to the center position. That shows me that it's not a position that they're content with, but rather one where they're proactively going out to improve. I simply don't see any evidence to accuse them of neglecting the position on draft day that would suggest them not selecting a center high.

3) Nick Mangold was probably the only truly slam dunk center option that pundits truly agreed on. Alex Mack had guys that believed in him and he had detractors. Ryan Kalil had detractors. Maurkice Pouncey had detractors. Travis Frederick obviously has had detractors.

I'm not sure if Travis Swanson is on Nick Mangold's level... because I never actually scouted Mangold as a college prospect, only read his breakdowns. I was just becoming familiar with the draft at that point. But I think Swanson is definitely a franchise center option. I see him as somewhere in between Alex Mack and Stefen Wisniewski. I'm not sure I would take him in the 20s of the first round, but I'd DEFINITELY take him at the top of the 2nd round. Grasu is someone I need to see more of, but he also looks like he could be a franchise center option.

So I definitely think center is a position that we should be concerned about drafting. It definitely has at least one option that I am really high on and possibly two.


Sigh... devils advocate does not sit well with me. Very Happy One of the other big points you could have used was how high Mangold was on Baltimore's draft board. From what I've read he would have definitely been the pick if the Jets didn't take him so high. I actually forgot that the Ravens offered Brown so much to stick around. If you remember back to that time I really wanted them to keep him too. So much that I would have let Suggs walk. Embarassed Ah, the mistakes of our youth.

I'm not sure there's as much to the information in your second point as there really is though. They took Gradkowski to backup Birk and eventually start. Obviously they weren't going to spend anything else on a center when they had both Birk and Gradkowski. Then when Birk retired they needed a backup and/or somebody to compete with Gradkowski regardless. To me that seems more like a filling the depth chart/numbers game than anything. Regardless of how a position is valued it needs to be filled and have depth. Except kickers, punters, and long snappers at least.

Swanson is an interesting prospect. I'm not sure if Bielema has been there long enough to really given Swanson that pedigree label of being coached up by him but Bielema himself said that Swanson is the most talented center he's ever been around and I believe that it's probably not just coachspeak. I've seen his stock all over the place right now but that doesn't mean much. I'm not familiar with Grasu. As long as he fits the scheme (I hope Baltimore commits to one and not this wishy washy crap) and doesn't suck I'd be happy though.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sp6488


Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 8435
Location: MD
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you remember back to that time I really wanted them to keep him too. So much that I would have let Suggs walk. Embarassed Ah, the mistakes of our youth.


And that is why no matter how much in a given moment I think I know better than our FO, I always take a deep breath and repeat the following words...

"In Ozzie we trust."

Next Man Up wrote:
An NFL general manager could hardly ask for greater carte blanche from an owner. That was pretty much the way it was for Newsome in the Ravens' organization. Years earlier Kevin Byrne, the team's vice president for public relations, had half-jokingly said, "Ozzie transcends us all." Billick repeated the line so often that newcomers thought it was his. What Byrne meant and others understood was that no one who worked for the Ravens questioned Newsome. Not the old owner, who viewed him as an adopted son; not the new owner, who respected and trusted him completely; not the head coach, who was almost awes by his lack of ego; and not anyone else who worked in the building.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 20064
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just now realized the Baltimore Ravens are a cult... Shocked
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nucky


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 446
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

According to football outsiders we are the 31st ranked run blocking line in the nfl.
18 in passing which is a little high to me but im just a pessimistic mess.


http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
_________________
"Fellas, I can tolerate arrogance, conceit, greed but self-pity is the one thing that just chaps my a--. We've experienced difficulty, but I will not tolerate, nor be part of, anything resembling self-pity."- Brian Billick
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
diamondbull424


Moderator
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 12969
Location: Baltimore, MD
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Nucky wrote:
According to football outsiders we are the 31st ranked run blocking line in the nfl.
18 in passing which is a little high to me but im just a pessimistic mess.


http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

18 makes some sense. We've had Monroe the past two weeks and he's been very good out there. So that has probably boosted us up a few notches.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 7175
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/article-1/Late-For-Work-1028-Ravens-Looking-For-WR-Trade-Big-Time/219edf14-3d4d-46e5-a059-6924824da08e?mobile-id=774760&media-type=N#

McKinnie talks about Castillo:

Quote:
After changes in the blocking scheme were implemented under Run Game Coordinator Juan Castillo, McKinnie said players were slowly adjusting to his style just a few months after winning the Super Bowl. But McKinnie believes everything will run more smoothly now that they’ve had nearly half of the season to get on the same page.

"When he first got there, Juan definitely said he wanted to make changes," McKinnie told Wilson. "I like to stick with what works, but Juan wants it done his way. Now, people are getting impatient and aren't trying to wait anymore. Everything should be running more smoothly. Juan has been telling us since the offseason that by the eighth or ninth game, things would be where we wanted it to be and everybody would get adjusted. Well, we're almost to that point in the season. So, hopefully it works out."


Quote:
"Juan likes to develop young players, because that's what he did in Philly," McKinnie said. "He is a good coach and he does help you with your technique, but he wants it done a certain way. My thing is everybody doesn't have the exact same talent or learn things the same way. I don't feel like you can coach everybody exactly the same. Not everyone is going to react the same.”


http://espn.go.com/blog/baltimore-ravens/post/_/id/2575/wake-up-caw-mckinnie-blames-castillo?ex_cid=espnapi_public

Quote:
While McKinnie said he likes Castillo personally, he believes the coach is too regimented and isn't willing to adapt his style to the Ravens' personnel. According to The Sun, the Ravens signed Castillo to a three-year contract, which likely means he isn't going anywhere soon.


Now I think everybody knows how I feel about McKinnie but this is something that probably confirms how big of a role Castillo has had in the offensive line thus far where as before it was more conjecture than anything. It sounds like a lot of what we were saying was pretty close to the truth. Apparently Castillo has a 3 year deal with the Ravens and I can't imagine that he's going to be let go any time soon so we can only hope that the players adapt to his system. I actually believe they can do it (Osemele will struggle to do anything as long as his back is ailing) but it sure is a hard process to watch.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 20064
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate McKinnie but he makes a lot of sense in what he's saying. I absolutely believe him when he says Castillo wants things done his way and doesn't adapt to players' strengths and tries to coach them all the same way.

So sad to see coaches do that....sigh....
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wackywabbit


Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 6479
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My least favorite coaching trait is being unadaptable.

Seems to describe a lot of people we bring in though. Sad
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 20064
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wackywabbit wrote:
My least favorite coaching trait is being unadaptable.

Seems to describe a lot of people we bring in though. Sad


Seriously, it describes Dean Pees, Cam Cameron, and now Juan Castillo to a T.
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BaltimoreTerp


Most Valuable Poster (4th Ballot)

Joined: 13 Feb 2005
Posts: 28776
Location: Washington, DC
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder how different Castillo's zone blocking scheme is from a traditional ZBS. We employed a lot of ZBS looks in 2011... in the season opener that year the Steelers were completely caught off guard by it and we ran all over them to the point where the only thing they could do postgame was claim we were playing dirty because we were utilizing more cut-blocks than usual. But that was Moeller's ZBS vs. Castillo's and I can't say I know enough about the specifics there to know what the distinctions are.
_________________
"The really important kind of freedom involves attention, and awareness, and discipline, and effort, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them, over and over, in myriad petty little unsexy ways, every day.”
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mancunian Raven


Joined: 09 Oct 2012
Posts: 2025
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
I hate McKinnie but he makes a lot of sense in what he's saying. I absolutely believe him when he says Castillo wants things done his way and doesn't adapt to players' strengths and tries to coach them all the same way.

So sad to see coaches do that....sigh....


Yeah, if that's what Castillo is doing, he needs to be gone now. Coaches should never try to impose their system on a group of players that it doesn't fit. The best ones always adapt their own beliefs to benefit the players.

Imagine if Bill Belichick had been a big believer in the Read Option, and had forced Tom Brady to try and play it. Guess which QB and coaching combo would probably be a brief, laughable blip in the history of the NFL?

Now, if Castillo hasn't just been trying to force his own system on the players, and has actually been coaching them up to run a blocking scheme that he honestly believes is the best thing for this group? Then that's not so bad. He's still a blithering idiot, as the evidence of the first seven weeks of the season have aptly demonstrated, but at least he's perhaps not completely ego driven.

Looking at some run play breakdowns over the season, it does appear that there's a continual confusion as to who's supposed to go where and block what, which has left completely uncovered defenders able to shoot the LOS and stuff the run. And that's just impacting on the RBs, who are now second guessing every hole they see, because they're getting used to defenders being in them all.

Some run game coordinator....
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
diamondbull424


Moderator
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 12969
Location: Baltimore, MD
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to rag on Castillo because at least he's proven that his run blocking scheme can work to much success. Contrary to popular belief, most "guru's" don't really change their system either. At best, they'll make it somewhat more malleable, but definitely won't change it.

Think about how awesome a defensive coach Rex Ryan can be. But also think about his last season here when our corners were hurt and playing poorly and he kept leaving them on an island with minimal safety help and they kept getting burnt.

Rex would be perfect for our current defensive crop because of his scheme... but even as great as he was, he wasn't very malleable.

So Castillo's system isn't working for us right now and he likes young players to mold, we can do that. Kalechi Osemele might not be an ideal scheme fit, but he's definitely young and he's certainly an athlete. He was a beast as a rookie at RT. I think we could definitely see KO kick back out to RT as we draft a center and LG ideal for Castillo's scheme and make some serious strides.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Baltimore Ravens All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Page 4 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group