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GDT- Week Four: BAL Ravens @ BUF Bills
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If we lose? Which Edward Norton are you?
Gif 1: Grr... but, I'd rather take it on on my computer..
44%
 44%  [ 4 ]
Gif 2: Grr... My computer costs too much, a nose is easily fixed.
33%
 33%  [ 3 ]
Neither: I'll be upset, but what would my girlfriend think?
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Other: I have a little brother for these things, so I'm covered. ;)
22%
 22%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 9

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kmvoss


Joined: 27 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a soul-crushing loss. Seeing the Browns down Cinci and the Steelers failing in London definitely made today a little better. That penalty on Suggs was pretty sad but we didn't deserve to win. That last INT was a fantastic play.
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nevermore


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just realized Torrey has the second most receiving yards behind Julio Jones. A little bright side, I guess.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
^^^ Well at least now we know the question to what happens when a very stoppable force meets a very movable object. The very stoppable force fails. Not talking

My hypothesis couldn't have been more wrong. Definitely assumed the opposite would be true.


I mean if this game wasn't enough to get Moeller or SOMEONE fired, I don't know what will...32nd ranked rush defense and we couldn't even get 20 total rushing yards
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
^^^ Well at least now we know the question to what happens when a very stoppable force meets a very movable object. The very stoppable force fails. Not talking

My hypothesis couldn't have been more wrong. Definitely assumed the opposite would be true.


I mean if this game wasn't enough to get Moeller or SOMEONE fired, I don't know what will...32nd ranked rush defense and we couldn't even get 20 total rushing yards


What about our 'Run Game Coordinator', Juan Castillo? That guy just seems to make whatever he touches worse.
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RavensTillIDie


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was watching the post-game wrap up yesterday and the analyst there made a very good point, outside of coaching there is really only one main component that changed along the line from the playoffs to this season; the center position. Now I haven't been a huge fan of Gino since I felt, starting from the preseason, his performance left a lot to be desired. However, that was more due to his technique and how easily he looked to get blown back by bigger stronger nose tackles. But one thing that was pointed out was, outside of Flacco, the center is the second most important part of the offense in terms of making adjustments and calling out audibles in blitz pickup along the line. To elaborate on this, we know what we have in McKinnie, and we know he's not the brightest bulb in the bunch, but he's made noticeably worse when he does not know where the blitz is coming from nor which way the line is shifting on an adjustment. And I suppose the same could be said for a second year guy like KO.

I know it's only his first year starting, but I need to see significantly more out of Gino or else we may need to look at other options.
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Speaking of attacking kids
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RavensTillIDie wrote:
Was watching the post-game wrap up yesterday and the analyst there made a very good point, outside of coaching there is really only one main component that changed along the line from the playoffs to this season; the center position. Now I haven't been a huge fan of Gino since I felt, starting from the preseason, his performance left a lot to be desired. However, that was more due to his technique and how easily he looked to get blown back by bigger stronger nose tackles. But one thing that was pointed out was, outside of Flacco, the center is the second most important part of the offense in terms of making adjustments and calling out audibles in blitz pickup along the line. To elaborate on this, we know what we have in McKinnie, and we know he's not the brightest bulb in the bunch, but he's made noticeably worse when he does not know where the blitz is coming from nor which way the line is shifting on an adjustment. And I suppose the same could be said for a second year guy like KO.

I know it's only his first year starting, but I need to see significantly more out of Gino or else we may need to look at other options.


Personally, while Gradkowski hasn't been great, I think the issue is with the line as a whole -- between stupid penalties (3 facemasks in 2 weeks? Really?) and flat out giving up on blocks (Oher), they are just a flat out mess. They seem like they could really care less about being out there and I don't know why all of the sudden. They aren't opening any holes, aren't giving Joe any sort of time to throw -- and Caldwell certainly isn't helping much by calling deep balls quite a bit either. Honestly, it reminds me of a Cam offense. Why aren't we seeing Torrey across the middle more? Why aren't we seeing more slants overall? Our OL obviously can't protect, so we need to change the scheme to get the ball out quicker, not rely on deep bombs to win games -- that won't be consistent enough to work unless Joe plays lights out (which he hasn't been). On top of that, Joe looks like he doesn't trust the line, so he's not stepping up, but rather throwing off his back foot which is leading to a lot of floaters/picks.

The defense is the one thing that's played relatively well this year, particularly the front 7. Yesterday we gave up a big chunk of rush yards, but as normal, the redzone defense stepped up in a big way to keep it close. Our corners, though, Graham in particular, just aren't getting it done, and our safeties (Elam in particular) seem to not quite have the communication down yet.
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M.10.E


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
RavensTillIDie wrote:
Was watching the post-game wrap up yesterday and the analyst there made a very good point, outside of coaching there is really only one main component that changed along the line from the playoffs to this season; the center position. Now I haven't been a huge fan of Gino since I felt, starting from the preseason, his performance left a lot to be desired. However, that was more due to his technique and how easily he looked to get blown back by bigger stronger nose tackles. But one thing that was pointed out was, outside of Flacco, the center is the second most important part of the offense in terms of making adjustments and calling out audibles in blitz pickup along the line. To elaborate on this, we know what we have in McKinnie, and we know he's not the brightest bulb in the bunch, but he's made noticeably worse when he does not know where the blitz is coming from nor which way the line is shifting on an adjustment. And I suppose the same could be said for a second year guy like KO.

I know it's only his first year starting, but I need to see significantly more out of Gino or else we may need to look at other options.


Personally, while Gradkowski hasn't been great, I think the issue is with the line as a whole -- between stupid penalties (3 facemasks in 2 weeks? Really?) and flat out giving up on blocks (Oher), they are just a flat out mess. They seem like they could really care less about being out there and I don't know why all of the sudden. They aren't opening any holes, aren't giving Joe any sort of time to throw -- and Caldwell certainly isn't helping much by calling deep balls quite a bit either. Honestly, it reminds me of a Cam offense. Why aren't we seeing Torrey across the middle more? Why aren't we seeing more slants overall? Our OL obviously can't protect, so we need to change the scheme to get the ball out quicker, not rely on deep bombs to win games -- that won't be consistent enough to work unless Joe plays lights out (which he hasn't been). On top of that, Joe looks like he doesn't trust the line, so he's not stepping up, but rather throwing off his back foot which is leading to a lot of floaters/picks.

The defense is the one thing that's played relatively well this year, particularly the front 7. Yesterday we gave up a big chunk of rush yards, but as normal, the redzone defense stepped up in a big way to keep it close. Our corners, though, Graham in particular, just aren't getting it done, and our safeties (Elam in particular) seem to not quite have the communication down yet.
Ding ding ding.

Winner winner.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
RavensTillIDie wrote:
Was watching the post-game wrap up yesterday and the analyst there made a very good point, outside of coaching there is really only one main component that changed along the line from the playoffs to this season; the center position. Now I haven't been a huge fan of Gino since I felt, starting from the preseason, his performance left a lot to be desired. However, that was more due to his technique and how easily he looked to get blown back by bigger stronger nose tackles. But one thing that was pointed out was, outside of Flacco, the center is the second most important part of the offense in terms of making adjustments and calling out audibles in blitz pickup along the line. To elaborate on this, we know what we have in McKinnie, and we know he's not the brightest bulb in the bunch, but he's made noticeably worse when he does not know where the blitz is coming from nor which way the line is shifting on an adjustment. And I suppose the same could be said for a second year guy like KO.

I know it's only his first year starting, but I need to see significantly more out of Gino or else we may need to look at other options.


Personally, while Gradkowski hasn't been great, I think the issue is with the line as a whole -- between stupid penalties (3 facemasks in 2 weeks? Really?) and flat out giving up on blocks (Oher), they are just a flat out mess. They seem like they could really care less about being out there and I don't know why all of the sudden. They aren't opening any holes, aren't giving Joe any sort of time to throw -- and Caldwell certainly isn't helping much by calling deep balls quite a bit either. Honestly, it reminds me of a Cam offense. Why aren't we seeing Torrey across the middle more? Why aren't we seeing more slants overall? Our OL obviously can't protect, so we need to change the scheme to get the ball out quicker, not rely on deep bombs to win games -- that won't be consistent enough to work unless Joe plays lights out (which he hasn't been). On top of that, Joe looks like he doesn't trust the line, so he's not stepping up, but rather throwing off his back foot which is leading to a lot of floaters/picks.

The defense is the one thing that's played relatively well this year, particularly the front 7. Yesterday we gave up a big chunk of rush yards, but as normal, the redzone defense stepped up in a big way to keep it close. Our corners, though, Graham in particular, just aren't getting it done, and our safeties (Elam in particular) seem to not quite have the communication down yet.


Yeah I noticed yesterday taht almost every time joe went back to pass, the pocket was collapsing on him from somewhere, and that is just ridiculous to not ever have a clean pocket.

But to answer your question about the routes we were running, we did see plenty of crossing routes, but Buffalo was blitzing A LOT and leaving their corners 1v1 against us and playing lots of single-high or zone coverage, so instead of just running crossing routes, Caldwell max protected and went deep and it actually worked better for us than just trying to throw crossing and slant routes, which we did early on in the game and it didn't work.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
RavensTillIDie wrote:
Was watching the post-game wrap up yesterday and the analyst there made a very good point, outside of coaching there is really only one main component that changed along the line from the playoffs to this season; the center position. Now I haven't been a huge fan of Gino since I felt, starting from the preseason, his performance left a lot to be desired. However, that was more due to his technique and how easily he looked to get blown back by bigger stronger nose tackles. But one thing that was pointed out was, outside of Flacco, the center is the second most important part of the offense in terms of making adjustments and calling out audibles in blitz pickup along the line. To elaborate on this, we know what we have in McKinnie, and we know he's not the brightest bulb in the bunch, but he's made noticeably worse when he does not know where the blitz is coming from nor which way the line is shifting on an adjustment. And I suppose the same could be said for a second year guy like KO.

I know it's only his first year starting, but I need to see significantly more out of Gino or else we may need to look at other options.


Personally, while Gradkowski hasn't been great, I think the issue is with the line as a whole -- between stupid penalties (3 facemasks in 2 weeks? Really?) and flat out giving up on blocks (Oher), they are just a flat out mess. They seem like they could really care less about being out there and I don't know why all of the sudden. They aren't opening any holes, aren't giving Joe any sort of time to throw -- and Caldwell certainly isn't helping much by calling deep balls quite a bit either. Honestly, it reminds me of a Cam offense. Why aren't we seeing Torrey across the middle more? Why aren't we seeing more slants overall? Our OL obviously can't protect, so we need to change the scheme to get the ball out quicker, not rely on deep bombs to win games -- that won't be consistent enough to work unless Joe plays lights out (which he hasn't been). On top of that, Joe looks like he doesn't trust the line, so he's not stepping up, but rather throwing off his back foot which is leading to a lot of floaters/picks.

The defense is the one thing that's played relatively well this year, particularly the front 7. Yesterday we gave up a big chunk of rush yards, but as normal, the redzone defense stepped up in a big way to keep it close. Our corners, though, Graham in particular, just aren't getting it done, and our safeties (Elam in particular) seem to not quite have the communication down yet.

We're usually on the same page... but I couldn't disagree more with your analysis.

I think we've certainly seen Caldwell mixing up the routes for our receivers. Heck, two of Torrey's passes that I can recall were from crossing routes gone for first downs and more. We saw, both Marlon Brown and Tandon Doss running multiple crossing patterns. Flacco also targetted someone running a slant at some point. Can't quite remember the play, I believe it was Doss running it, but Doss broke inwards a little too late and therefore was not able to shield the defender from getting inside to disrupt the pass... and the defender batted the ball. Had Doss broke in earlier, he gets the first down.

In terms of running deep routes. We did that because it was clear that our receivers weren't getting much separation underneath. Yet we had a clear advantage with our speed vs the Buffalo secondary that, while quick, wasn't really fast. Both Smith and Thompson had big plays deep. We were therefore running max protect and relying on Smith and Thompson to stretch the field for big plays... and it definitely worked. It certainly worked much better than the running game and was also more effective than the short passing attack we were running. We got into opponent territory (with our offense) more times running the max protect, deep pass system in the fourth quarter (some of the third) then we had done using the short passing attack all game.

Had we stuck to the short passing attack and not took those deep shots, we lose by 2-3 possessions.

In terms of Joe throwing off his back foot. I didn't see the first pick, so I can't comment on that one. But the only pick that was thrown off his back foot was the one into the endzone where he was targetting Torrey Smith. And that wasn't one where he just DECIDED to throw off his back foot. He was about to step into the pass, but defenders were just about to rock him and that's why he didn't step up. It wasn't like Flacco didn't trust his line and he rushed his pass, he rushed his pass because he was inches away from getting drilled during his passing motion.
---------------
Lastly, I don't know what you saw with regards to Elam. Perhaps there was some communications issues, but Elam looked really good yesterday from what I saw. He was all over the field making stops. Batted a pass down intended for Stevie Johnson. He had a huge tackle against Spiller at some point in the second when it looked like he had open field and would've scored a touchdown. Elam also missed a few plays, two I believe led to toucdowns, but he made far more plays then he didn't in the game IMO. I thought he looked like our best safety out there. Explosive and instinctual.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I too would disagree with the notion that we're not seeing enough crossing routes. If anything, I feel like Caldwell has to an extent overcorrected that particular problem from Cam's playcalling days and against both Houston and Buffalo we saw their defenses sit in the intermediate zones and wait for more crossing routes without any fear of big plays over the top. I would estimate that around 70% of Torrey's catches this year have been on crossing routes.

It was only when Caldwell mixed in a couple of deep passes in both cases to force them to back off and respect Joe's arm strength that we were getting plays in the passing game, both short and long. At least 2 of the interceptions yesterday, the first Alonso one and one of the Aaron Williams picks, were the result of the Bills defenders sitting in the short zones and waiting for Joe to throw short and into traffic again.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB: The first INT that Joe threw was a sideline pass to his right intended for Tandon Doss and there was a corner outside of Doss in a zone and he just came back inside and went right in front of Doss for a pick. It was a throw into double coverage.

As for us going deep, once we started going deep we started scoring. Caldwell calls crossing routes a lot which I have no problem with and I think the playbook is only going to expand, but I honestly think Caldwell did the right thing yesterday in going deep. Like I said, Buffalo was playing a lot of single-high safety looks and beat them deep as a result because they were just blitzing the crap out of our terrible offensive line.

We saw Torrey beat them deep, and Deonte Thompson beat them deep and made a nice catch as well.
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M.10.E


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This may be a little confusing but I'm going to try and say something.

You know how against us, half the time on crossing routes the receivers are wide open. Like, how come this can't happen to us. All of our receivers rarely seem to be open that much at all. I don't understand it.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really hoping Deonte's concussion doesn't keep him out for an extended period of time. He seemed to give us a bit of a spark in the 2nd half and showed some good hands holding on to the ball on the H2H hit that knocked him out of the game. Our offense looked its most dangerous when we had Torrey and Deonte on the outside and Marlon Brown in the slot.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.10.E wrote:
This may be a little confusing but I'm going to try and say something.

You know how against us, half the time on crossing routes the receivers are wide open. Like, how come this can't happen to us. All of our receivers rarely seem to be open that much at all. I don't understand it.


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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:

We're usually on the same page... but I couldn't disagree more with your analysis.

I think we've certainly seen Caldwell mixing up the routes for our receivers. Heck, two of Torrey's passes that I can recall were from crossing routes gone for first downs and more.


I think I wasn't clear enough on my points. I wasn't arguing that we aren't seeing Torrey run crossing routes -- it was more along the lines of, like you said, when Torrey does run those, he's open and makes plays. I think we need to try to do that a bit more often.

Quote:
We saw, both Marlon Brown and Tandon Doss running multiple crossing patterns. Flacco also targetted someone running a slant at some point. Can't quite remember the play, I believe it was Doss running it, but Doss broke inwards a little too late and therefore was not able to shield the defender from getting inside to disrupt the pass... and the defender batted the ball. Had Doss broke in earlier, he gets the first down.


Again, I was more talking about strictly seeing Torrey run more crossing patterns as he's shown he can get the separation and make plays, and less about crossing patterns overall. We certainly do run a decent amount of crossing patterns, but both Doss and Brown aren't gaining enough separation for it to work for them.

As for the slants, I don't remember that specific play, but I still don't think we see enough of them. Not sure if it's due to personnel, or play calling or what -- but when our pocket is collapsing and we are seeing lots of blitzes, a quick slant over the rush can help neutralize it and I just haven't seen it work for us this season.

Quote:
In terms of running deep routes. We did that because it was clear that our receivers weren't getting much separation underneath. Yet we had a clear advantage with our speed vs the Buffalo secondary that, while quick, wasn't really fast. Both Smith and Thompson had big plays deep. We were therefore running max protect and relying on Smith and Thompson to stretch the field for big plays... and it definitely worked. It certainly worked much better than the running game and was also more effective than the short passing attack we were running. We got into opponent territory (with our offense) more times running the max protect, deep pass system in the fourth quarter (some of the third) then we had done using the short passing attack all game.

Had we stuck to the short passing attack and not took those deep shots, we lose by 2-3 possessions.


Not arguing that it didn't work for us yesterday -- because it did at the end of the game, but that this kind of reliance is simply not consistent enough for my liking. Rather than max protecting and trying to go deep, I'd much rather see play calling intended to nullify the rush -- quick slants, draw plays, etc. Again, I understand the use of it yesterday and it's results -- I just don't agree with the idea overall. I didn't see us attempting to perform the "nullifying" type of plays mentioned -- I saw us trying our normal offense, it getting stopped, then deciding we were just going to rely on the big play to have a chance.


Quote:
In terms of Joe throwing off his back foot. I didn't see the first pick, so I can't comment on that one. But the only pick that was thrown off his back foot was the one into the endzone where he was targetting Torrey Smith. And that wasn't one where he just DECIDED to throw off his back foot. He was about to step into the pass, but defenders were just about to rock him and that's why he didn't step up. It wasn't like Flacco didn't trust his line and he rushed his pass, he rushed his pass because he was inches away from getting drilled during his passing motion.


The first INT was just a bad read by Joe -- he didn't see Williams on the sideline about to cut back in.

And I agree that the only INT yesterday where he threw off his back foot was to Smith in the endzone -- but my point wasn't just about INTs. He's been sailing a lot more passes this year than last, he hasn't been setting his feet and driving the ball (due to pocket collapse) but rather letting it float, etc. I understand he needs to take some risks and put the ball into tight places, but I think he needs to get back to his fundamentals a bit more. We don't have a Boldin type guy who is going to fight and come down with a lofted ball anymore -- we have guys who need the ball in their hands before the defensive player gets to him.

Quote:
Lastly, I don't know what you saw with regards to Elam. Perhaps there was some communications issues, but Elam looked really good yesterday from what I saw. He was all over the field making stops. Batted a pass down intended for Stevie Johnson. He had a huge tackle against Spiller at some point in the second when it looked like he had open field and would've scored a touchdown. Elam also missed a few plays, two I believe led to toucdowns, but he made far more plays then he didn't in the game IMO. I thought he looked like our best safety out there. Explosive and instinctual.


I've seen him have some communications issues over the past few weeks -- most notably yesterday where we left Stevie Johnson wide open in the endzone but Manuel missed him. Now, I'm not sure who blew the coverage, but Graham looked to have the short zone while Elam the long -- but Elam never moved once Johnson got past Graham. I don't want to pin things on Elam as him being the one not knowing what's going on -- but we've most certainly seem some coverage lapses over the past few weeks and I seem to remember seeing his number more than I'd like to (every time a safety is late to a play, I always hope I see #32 because I want to pimp Elam, so I make sure to find him Smile). Now, some of those could be designed where Elam isn't supposed to be there, some might be the fault of others -- but at least with the Johnson play and some others that don't clearly stick out, some type of communication breakdown must be occurring. Now, that's not to say Elam hasn't been good -- I like his play thus far and think he's been overall pretty darn solid -- just something I've noticed thus far.
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