Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Ravens 2014 Offseason Tracker
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 17, 18, 19  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Baltimore Ravens
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 21028
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
The whole "Dumervil can't play the run" thing hasn't been the case this year. IIRC, PFF actually mentioned several times throughout the year that Dumervil's run defense has been much better.

For the Steelers game, I'm referring to the second one, the game highlights, and I don't have have Rewind/All-22 so that's why I asked for you to help me out with that Very Happy

Lastly, yes, our pass rush has been invisible, but here's the thing. We have a leader in Suggs who, when the pass rush goes invisible, should be able to be relied on to create sacks and create a presence, and he simply hasn't done that consistently. There's a reason why these guys get paid more than others, and that's a huge part of it. When others aren't consistent, your top players should be. All I'm saying is that Suggs shouldn't be getting beat by single blockers as much as he has been when we consider the level of dominance he's capable of.

Lastly, saying Dumervil is nothing more than Paul Kruger is vastly underrating Dumervil. I understand their roles are much in the same, but Dumervil as a player is better in every aspect of football than Kruger was. And if you want to replicate Suggs' pass rush, we have Dumervil. Want to replicate his run stopping abilities, we have Upshaw. Quite simple.

However, an extension for Suggs is the most likely scenario, and if that takes his cap hit down, then I'm all for it. Like I originally said, the premise for this was Suggs' play continues to not match his paycheck (which means he continues to not match this for SEVERAL more games).


So wait, when the pass rush is lacking, it's up to Suggs to step up and find a way to get pressure.

But yet, it's not up to the guy across from him, who's making a little less (who you think isn't dependent on Suggs at all) to do anything? The guy who basically has solely a role of generating that pressure and is much more rested?


It is up to him as well, and in the past 4 games has 4 sacks (3 sacks, 0 sacks, 1 sack, 0 sacks) compared to Suggs' last 4+ games of having zero sacks.

Now I also can't look up pressures so if anyone else can look those up (I don't have access to any of those websites with advanced stats), that would help too.

I'm just saying that Suggs is our "elite" pass rusher and thus should be able to be counted on to provide that impact and hasn't over the past several games aside from the run game.
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 22111
Location: Parkville, MD
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
The whole "Dumervil can't play the run" thing hasn't been the case this year. IIRC, PFF actually mentioned several times throughout the year that Dumervil's run defense has been much better.

For the Steelers game, I'm referring to the second one, the game highlights, and I don't have have Rewind/All-22 so that's why I asked for you to help me out with that Very Happy

Lastly, yes, our pass rush has been invisible, but here's the thing. We have a leader in Suggs who, when the pass rush goes invisible, should be able to be relied on to create sacks and create a presence, and he simply hasn't done that consistently. There's a reason why these guys get paid more than others, and that's a huge part of it. When others aren't consistent, your top players should be. All I'm saying is that Suggs shouldn't be getting beat by single blockers as much as he has been when we consider the level of dominance he's capable of.

Lastly, saying Dumervil is nothing more than Paul Kruger is vastly underrating Dumervil. I understand their roles are much in the same, but Dumervil as a player is better in every aspect of football than Kruger was. And if you want to replicate Suggs' pass rush, we have Dumervil. Want to replicate his run stopping abilities, we have Upshaw. Quite simple.

However, an extension for Suggs is the most likely scenario, and if that takes his cap hit down, then I'm all for it. Like I originally said, the premise for this was Suggs' play continues to not match his paycheck (which means he continues to not match this for SEVERAL more games).


So wait, when the pass rush is lacking, it's up to Suggs to step up and find a way to get pressure.

But yet, it's not up to the guy across from him, who's making a little less (who you think isn't dependent on Suggs at all) to do anything? The guy who basically has solely a role of generating that pressure and is much more rested?


It is up to him as well, and in the past 4 games has 4 sacks (3 sacks, 0 sacks, 1 sack, 0 sacks) compared to Suggs' last 4+ games of having zero sacks.

Now I also can't look up pressures so if anyone else can look those up (I don't have access to any of those websites with advanced stats), that would help too.

I'm just saying that Suggs is our "elite" pass rusher and thus should be able to be counted on to provide that impact and hasn't over the past several games aside from the run game.


Why stop at 4 games? If you go to 6 games for Doom it's 4.5 in 6 games. Not to mention Dumervil's sack in the NYJ game came on the last play of the game in pure garbage time. So basically, in the last 6 games, Doom has had 1 strong game.

The fact is simply that yes, Suggs has struggled with getting a sack over the last few games. But that certainly doesn't discount his very strong start to this season whatsoever.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 7261
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suggs' value in terms of helping out the pass-rusher on the other side of the line is huge. Even though he's not getting to the QB himself he's still helping the other guys out by opening things up. That's not the case with Upshaw. I like Upshaw but if he's starting then there needs to be a truly dominant pass-rusher across for him or there has to be somebody on the line that can pressure the QB consistently.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 21028
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
Suggs' value in terms of helping out the pass-rusher on the other side of the line is huge. Even though he's not getting to the QB himself he's still helping the other guys out by opening things up. That's not the case with Upshaw. I like Upshaw but if he's starting then there needs to be a truly dominant pass-rusher across for him or there has to be somebody on the line that can pressure the QB consistently.


How does Suggs open things up? I'm still yet to see an example of this..
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
coordinator0


Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 7261
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Suggs' value in terms of helping out the pass-rusher on the other side of the line is huge. Even though he's not getting to the QB himself he's still helping the other guys out by opening things up. That's not the case with Upshaw. I like Upshaw but if he's starting then there needs to be a truly dominant pass-rusher across for him or there has to be somebody on the line that can pressure the QB consistently.


How does Suggs open things up? I'm still yet to see an example of this..


Opposing offenses are more worried about him. Just because he hasn't put up any sack numbers the last few weeks doesn't mean he's irrelevant and the opposition is easily taking him out of plays with 1-on-1 blocking (like what works against Upshaw most of the time).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 22111
Location: Parkville, MD
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Suggs' value in terms of helping out the pass-rusher on the other side of the line is huge. Even though he's not getting to the QB himself he's still helping the other guys out by opening things up. That's not the case with Upshaw. I like Upshaw but if he's starting then there needs to be a truly dominant pass-rusher across for him or there has to be somebody on the line that can pressure the QB consistently.


How does Suggs open things up? I'm still yet to see an example of this..


diamondbull424 wrote:

He doesn't? News to me. So the multiple occasions in the Steelers game where Suggs would get past their LT only to be hit by Bell... weren't double teams? Or does it only count as a double team when a TE is present on the LOS to assist the LT?

And it's not just the Steelers game. On multiple occasions this season that has happened. RBs tend to attack Suggs side to slow him down than to go towards Dumervil. So that definitely DOES have an impact on Dumervil's performance. It means, he gets more 1on1 opportunities. Also, Suggs being a great pass rusher opposite Dumervil means Doom isn't going to be double teamed himself on many occasions. Unrelated, Suggs presence also helps to draw the RB to his side and sometimes helps to leave a free blitzing ILB to attack the QB unabated.

_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 21028
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Suggs' value in terms of helping out the pass-rusher on the other side of the line is huge. Even though he's not getting to the QB himself he's still helping the other guys out by opening things up. That's not the case with Upshaw. I like Upshaw but if he's starting then there needs to be a truly dominant pass-rusher across for him or there has to be somebody on the line that can pressure the QB consistently.


How does Suggs open things up? I'm still yet to see an example of this..


diamondbull424 wrote:

He doesn't? News to me. So the multiple occasions in the Steelers game where Suggs would get past their LT only to be hit by Bell... weren't double teams? Or does it only count as a double team when a TE is present on the LOS to assist the LT?

And it's not just the Steelers game. On multiple occasions this season that has happened. RBs tend to attack Suggs side to slow him down than to go towards Dumervil. So that definitely DOES have an impact on Dumervil's performance. It means, he gets more 1on1 opportunities. Also, Suggs being a great pass rusher opposite Dumervil means Doom isn't going to be double teamed himself on many occasions. Unrelated, Suggs presence also helps to draw the RB to his side and sometimes helps to leave a free blitzing ILB to attack the QB unabated.


And he still hasn't shown an example of that.....
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
diamondbull424


Moderator
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 12976
Location: Baltimore, MD
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

You'll have to excuse my memory, for the past few days I've been doing a lot of research on baseball contracts and the $22M was Alex Rodriguez's salary in 2006, and I just remember seeing a 2 in Suggs' salary cap so I made a connection that wasn't there Wink

But in terms of that, I think Suggs will get an extension and Ngata will DEFINITELY get restructured.

I figured you must've had a Matt Elam moment, so it wasn't a big deal. I just found that number crazy-hilarious is all.

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
The whole "Dumervil can't play the run" thing hasn't been the case this year. IIRC, PFF actually mentioned several times throughout the year that Dumervil's run defense has been much better.

Dumervil's ability to play the run is in large part because he's allowed to remain fresh WHILE playing the run. He doesn't get a chance to wear down on any level because Upshaw essentially shares half the snaps. Whereas with the Broncos, Dumervil was more of a full time player. He still shared time with Robert Ayers, but not as many snaps lost. With us, Dumervil has only "started" 3/13 games. While we still have three games to go, he's only averaging just over two sacks a game. With Denver, he averaged over 3 sacks a game for the past three seasons.

Those lost tackles are going to Upshaw as a run stopping threat. Dumervil is more effective because he's nearly always fresh. What your plan proposes is to essentially place him in the same situation as when he was in Denver. You would be utilizing Dumervil as a full time player in which case his productivity per snap would drastically decrease in run defense due to him not being fresh in conjunction with his size. Being so small he needs to constantly win the leverage battle to be effective. If he doesn't, then he gets washed out against the run. When he's fresh, he can win that battle, but the problem comes when he gets worn down and teams run at him... he simply cannot keep contain in those situations.

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Lastly, saying Dumervil is nothing more than Paul Kruger is vastly underrating Dumervil. I understand their roles are much in the same, but Dumervil as a player is better in every aspect of football than Kruger was. And if you want to replicate Suggs' pass rush, we have Dumervil. Want to replicate his run stopping abilities, we have Upshaw. Quite simple.

The Paul Kruger comparison was in his role. Just because Dumervil is a rich man's Paul Kruger does not mean, he's not a Paul Kruger type player... that needs to be in a rotation to be amplify his ability. Dumervil is simply more effective as a pass rusher and as a run stopper when he's allowed to stay fresh. He's not the type that can last an entire game with minimum breathers, like Suggs or any complete OLB worthy of a big contract. Dumervil is a limited player, like Kruger... which was the point of the comparison.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 21028
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Denver didn't have a strongside and weakside like we do. Stick Upshaw on the strongside and let Dumervil have backside contain and then teams can't just run at him like they did in Denver. Sure they could still use backside counters and stuff like that, but we played this same set with JJ here - we'd put him on the strongside and let Suggs have backside contain and it worked out nicely. I think a similar role would be fine with Dumervil there and Upshaw on the front side.

However, now that I think of it, this goes back to assuming that Suggs is not in the picture, which I don't think we will ever see, so even then, if we play Dumervil over Upshaw then you have Suggs on the strongside and Dumervil on the weakside, which we currently DO NOT do, because Suggs always plays weakside.
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 22111
Location: Parkville, MD
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Denver didn't have a strongside and weakside like we do. Stick Upshaw on the strongside and let Dumervil have backside contain and then teams can't just run at him like they did in Denver. Sure they could still use backside counters and stuff like that, but we played this same set with JJ here - we'd put him on the strongside and let Suggs have backside contain and it worked out nicely. I think a similar role would be fine with Dumervil there and Upshaw on the front side.

However, now that I think of it, this goes back to assuming that Suggs is not in the picture, which I don't think we will ever see, so even then, if we play Dumervil over Upshaw then you have Suggs on the strongside and Dumervil on the weakside, which we currently DO NOT do, because Suggs always plays weakside.


Suggs does not always play weak side. He actually quite often lines up on strong side.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 21028
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Denver didn't have a strongside and weakside like we do. Stick Upshaw on the strongside and let Dumervil have backside contain and then teams can't just run at him like they did in Denver. Sure they could still use backside counters and stuff like that, but we played this same set with JJ here - we'd put him on the strongside and let Suggs have backside contain and it worked out nicely. I think a similar role would be fine with Dumervil there and Upshaw on the front side.

However, now that I think of it, this goes back to assuming that Suggs is not in the picture, which I don't think we will ever see, so even then, if we play Dumervil over Upshaw then you have Suggs on the strongside and Dumervil on the weakside, which we currently DO NOT do, because Suggs always plays weakside.


Suggs does not always play weak side. He actually quite often lines up on strong side.


90% of the time he's either weakside or lined up over the left tackle.
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
Posts: 22111
Location: Parkville, MD
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Denver didn't have a strongside and weakside like we do. Stick Upshaw on the strongside and let Dumervil have backside contain and then teams can't just run at him like they did in Denver. Sure they could still use backside counters and stuff like that, but we played this same set with JJ here - we'd put him on the strongside and let Suggs have backside contain and it worked out nicely. I think a similar role would be fine with Dumervil there and Upshaw on the front side.

However, now that I think of it, this goes back to assuming that Suggs is not in the picture, which I don't think we will ever see, so even then, if we play Dumervil over Upshaw then you have Suggs on the strongside and Dumervil on the weakside, which we currently DO NOT do, because Suggs always plays weakside.


Suggs does not always play weak side. He actually quite often lines up on strong side.


90% of the time he's either weakside or lined up over the left tackle.


Even then, that's not "always" Wink

But, I'd argue that the percentage is a bit lower than that.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 21028
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Denver didn't have a strongside and weakside like we do. Stick Upshaw on the strongside and let Dumervil have backside contain and then teams can't just run at him like they did in Denver. Sure they could still use backside counters and stuff like that, but we played this same set with JJ here - we'd put him on the strongside and let Suggs have backside contain and it worked out nicely. I think a similar role would be fine with Dumervil there and Upshaw on the front side.

However, now that I think of it, this goes back to assuming that Suggs is not in the picture, which I don't think we will ever see, so even then, if we play Dumervil over Upshaw then you have Suggs on the strongside and Dumervil on the weakside, which we currently DO NOT do, because Suggs always plays weakside.


Suggs does not always play weak side. He actually quite often lines up on strong side.


90% of the time he's either weakside or lined up over the left tackle.


Even then, that's not "always" Wink

But, I'd argue that the percentage is a bit lower than that.


But even then that's not "quite often" Wink

I think the only times Suggs will line up on the strong side is the rare occasion that we have Dumervil on the field with Suggs in a < 3 WR set.
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
diamondbull424


Moderator
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 12976
Location: Baltimore, MD
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Suggs' value in terms of helping out the pass-rusher on the other side of the line is huge. Even though he's not getting to the QB himself he's still helping the other guys out by opening things up. That's not the case with Upshaw. I like Upshaw but if he's starting then there needs to be a truly dominant pass-rusher across for him or there has to be somebody on the line that can pressure the QB consistently.


How does Suggs open things up? I'm still yet to see an example of this..


diamondbull424 wrote:

He doesn't? News to me. So the multiple occasions in the Steelers game where Suggs would get past their LT only to be hit by Bell... weren't double teams? Or does it only count as a double team when a TE is present on the LOS to assist the LT?

And it's not just the Steelers game. On multiple occasions this season that has happened. RBs tend to attack Suggs side to slow him down than to go towards Dumervil. So that definitely DOES have an impact on Dumervil's performance. It means, he gets more 1on1 opportunities. Also, Suggs being a great pass rusher opposite Dumervil means Doom isn't going to be double teamed himself on many occasions. Unrelated, Suggs presence also helps to draw the RB to his side and sometimes helps to leave a free blitzing ILB to attack the QB unabated.


And he still hasn't shown an example of that.....

What do you mean, like rewatch the game to find the plays and then spend another 20 minutes making a gif in photoshop of a few plays just to appease your curiosity?

Yeah... no. Maybe if I had more time on my hands/some free time. But if that's what you're talking about, I don't have the time for all that. Way too much effort there... for minimal return. Even just screen shotting the play, would still require watching that game over. Which... is only a 'maybe' at best. Feeling pretty lazy this weekend tbqh... maybe tomorrow that will change.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 21028
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Flaccomania wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Suggs' value in terms of helping out the pass-rusher on the other side of the line is huge. Even though he's not getting to the QB himself he's still helping the other guys out by opening things up. That's not the case with Upshaw. I like Upshaw but if he's starting then there needs to be a truly dominant pass-rusher across for him or there has to be somebody on the line that can pressure the QB consistently.


How does Suggs open things up? I'm still yet to see an example of this..


diamondbull424 wrote:

He doesn't? News to me. So the multiple occasions in the Steelers game where Suggs would get past their LT only to be hit by Bell... weren't double teams? Or does it only count as a double team when a TE is present on the LOS to assist the LT?

And it's not just the Steelers game. On multiple occasions this season that has happened. RBs tend to attack Suggs side to slow him down than to go towards Dumervil. So that definitely DOES have an impact on Dumervil's performance. It means, he gets more 1on1 opportunities. Also, Suggs being a great pass rusher opposite Dumervil means Doom isn't going to be double teamed himself on many occasions. Unrelated, Suggs presence also helps to draw the RB to his side and sometimes helps to leave a free blitzing ILB to attack the QB unabated.


And he still hasn't shown an example of that.....

What do you mean, like rewatch the game to find the plays and then spend another 20 minutes making a gif in photoshop of a few plays just to appease your curiosity?

Yeah... no. Maybe if I had more time on my hands/some free time. But if that's what you're talking about, I don't have the time for all that. Way too much effort there... for minimal return. Even just screen shotting the play, would still require watching that game over. Which... is only a 'maybe' at best. Feeling pretty lazy this weekend tbqh... maybe tomorrow that will change.


I shall be waiting Very Happy and also watching more closely this Monday.
_________________

BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Baltimore Ravens All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 17, 18, 19  Next
Page 4 of 19

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group