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2014 draft is stacked at QB, trade up or never win a SB
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kanedafx


Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 416
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

texandominance wrote:
Here is a list of starting NFL QBs:

Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers

Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, EJ Manuel, Cam Newton, Jay Cutler, Andy Dalton, Brian Hoyer, Tony Romo, Matthew Stafford, Matt Schaub, Andrew Luck, Chad Henne, Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill, Christian Ponder, Eli Manning, Geno Smith, Michael Vick, Phillip Rivers, Colin Kaepernick, Russel Wilson, Sam Bradford, Josh Freeman, Jake Locker, RG3, Terrell Pryor, Ben Roethlisberger


Now pick 12 from that second group better than Schaub. Pretty difficult to do when you think about it and take into account everything.


Easy. Here are all of the QBs I would take over Schaub in a heartbeat.

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
Cam Newton
Jay Cutler
Andrew Luck
Alex Smith
Eli Manning
Phillip Rivers
Colin Kaepernick
Russel Wilson
RG3
Ben Roethlisberger

Would consider:

Tony Romo
Matthew Stafford
Geno Smith
Michael Vick
Ryan Tannehill
Sam Bradford

All of these based on either upside potential (RG3, Luck, Newton), proven post-season success (Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, Joe Flacco), or raw talent (Rivers, Vick, Romo).
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kanedafx


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 2014 draft is stacked at QB, trade up or never win a SB Reply with quote

texandominance wrote:
Cole416 wrote:
texandominance wrote:
kanedafx wrote:

Schaub also seems to have regressed. Few people would list him in the top half of the league now.


He is easily top half of the league. I don't know how you don't think so

Quote:
And unfortunately, he's not even a Trent Dilfer game manager with all those pick 6's.


Yes, he has thrown two in two weeks, but he hadn't thrown one since 2009 (before last week). I doubt this is an issue.

And while the Texans are stacked, they need a little more than a game manager to win. They don't need Aaron Rodgers, but they do need a Joe Flacco style winner (and I by no means think Flacco is elite, but he can make plays).

Quote:

Mariota, Boyd, Manziel, Bridgewater, Hundley, and despite the unfortunate family connection even Carr.


Mariota will not be much in the league. A read option QB is not going to win in the NFL, see RG3, Mike Vick and Kap this year. Boyd is good and I like but Manziel in the NFL is a joke. Yes, he is athletic, but his decision making is terrible. Both on and off the field. Ponder shows us time and time again, when you are scrambling and just throw it up, it will not turn out well in the NFL. Bridgewater is good too but I doubt a rookie QB is going to help our situation in the next few years. If we were to trade Schaub and Yates, we best trade Andre, Owen, Ed, Joseph and Smith.

Trading Schaub would be throwing in the towel for the next few years and we should just rebuild around Hopkins, Brown, Watt and Cush in that case.

I'm still optimistic about the season. Yes, we usually come out on fire, but we peak around week 7 or 8. If this is our year, we will get better and peak later in the year (or even next year).

Calm down, it was a few ugly games and a loss, but the season is very long and we are still 2-1 and 1-0 in our division.

Didn't Schaub throw a pick 6 in last years Wildcard vs Bengals.


He did, but I was talking about the regular season. If you include that one in the playoffs, he is still averaging less than 1 per season. That is less than the league average by far


Another way to look at it is that he's thrown one in THREE of the last FIVE games. Shocked

But you know, twist the numbers however you need to to make your argument seem correct.
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Cole416


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 2014 draft is stacked at QB, trade up or never win a SB Reply with quote

kanedafx wrote:
texandominance wrote:
Cole416 wrote:
texandominance wrote:
kanedafx wrote:

Schaub also seems to have regressed. Few people would list him in the top half of the league now.


He is easily top half of the league. I don't know how you don't think so

Quote:
And unfortunately, he's not even a Trent Dilfer game manager with all those pick 6's.


Yes, he has thrown two in two weeks, but he hadn't thrown one since 2009 (before last week). I doubt this is an issue.

And while the Texans are stacked, they need a little more than a game manager to win. They don't need Aaron Rodgers, but they do need a Joe Flacco style winner (and I by no means think Flacco is elite, but he can make plays).

Quote:

Mariota, Boyd, Manziel, Bridgewater, Hundley, and despite the unfortunate family connection even Carr.


Mariota will not be much in the league. A read option QB is not going to win in the NFL, see RG3, Mike Vick and Kap this year. Boyd is good and I like but Manziel in the NFL is a joke. Yes, he is athletic, but his decision making is terrible. Both on and off the field. Ponder shows us time and time again, when you are scrambling and just throw it up, it will not turn out well in the NFL. Bridgewater is good too but I doubt a rookie QB is going to help our situation in the next few years. If we were to trade Schaub and Yates, we best trade Andre, Owen, Ed, Joseph and Smith.

Trading Schaub would be throwing in the towel for the next few years and we should just rebuild around Hopkins, Brown, Watt and Cush in that case.

I'm still optimistic about the season. Yes, we usually come out on fire, but we peak around week 7 or 8. If this is our year, we will get better and peak later in the year (or even next year).

Calm down, it was a few ugly games and a loss, but the season is very long and we are still 2-1 and 1-0 in our division.

Didn't Schaub throw a pick 6 in last years Wildcard vs Bengals.


He did, but I was talking about the regular season. If you include that one in the playoffs, he is still averaging less than 1 per season. That is less than the league average by far


Another way to look at it is that he's thrown one in THREE of the last FIVE games. Shocked

But you know, twist the numbers however you need to to make your argument seem correct.

I just entered the convo. Trying to get the right facts so I can see this debate heat up.
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lumberjackchris


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is Kubiak, plain and simple.
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Quint


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo is crushing it in this thread, keep up the good work amigo Applause
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Jacobys Homey


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amazingandre wrote:
texandominance wrote:
Here is a list of starting NFL QBs:

Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers

Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, EJ Manuel, Cam Newton, Jay Cutler, Andy Dalton, Brian Hoyer, Tony Romo, Matthew Stafford, Matt Schaub, Andrew Luck, Chad Henne, Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill, Christian Ponder, Eli Manning, Geno Smith, Michael Vick, Phillip Rivers, Colin Kaepernick, Russel Wilson, Sam Bradford, Josh Freeman, Jake Locker, RG3, Terrell Pryor, Ben Roethlisberger


Now pick 12 from that second group better than Schaub. Pretty difficult to do when you think about it and take into account everything.


I could pick more than 12 that I think would preform better than schaub on OUR TEAM and you and apollo would just spew stats......their team is not stacked like ours. There are a lot of guys on that list with much better tangibles and skills than Schaub.


Pls explain tangibles
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biggio7


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jacobys Homey wrote:
amazingandre wrote:
texandominance wrote:
Here is a list of starting NFL QBs:

Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers

Carson Palmer, Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, EJ Manuel, Cam Newton, Jay Cutler, Andy Dalton, Brian Hoyer, Tony Romo, Matthew Stafford, Matt Schaub, Andrew Luck, Chad Henne, Alex Smith, Ryan Tannehill, Christian Ponder, Eli Manning, Geno Smith, Michael Vick, Phillip Rivers, Colin Kaepernick, Russel Wilson, Sam Bradford, Josh Freeman, Jake Locker, RG3, Terrell Pryor, Ben Roethlisberger


Now pick 12 from that second group better than Schaub. Pretty difficult to do when you think about it and take into account everything.


I could pick more than 12 that I think would preform better than schaub on OUR TEAM and you and apollo would just spew stats......their team is not stacked like ours. There are a lot of guys on that list with much better tangibles and skills than Schaub.


Pls explain tangibles


I think he means the "It" factor. Laughing

I mean obviously there are going to be more than 12 who have better football skills than Schaub. No team is happy with their QB. Pats complain about Brady. Packers complain about Rodgers etc. Fans just want to complain about their team, that's how it is. Just deal with it and move on.
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Grasspike


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting article that touches on a common complaint here:

http://espn.go.com/blog/houston-texans/post/_/id/804/on-matt-schaub-and-throwing-deep
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kanedafx


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lumberjackchris wrote:
The problem is Kubiak, plain and simple.


Possibly, but like I said, he's not going anywhere without back to back 0-16 seasons.

So I look at the next most troublesome area that at least has SOME chance at being addressed.

I really hate how the Texans organization is run like a good ole boys club.

The owner really likes Gary, so Gary stays no matter what, who in turn likes "Pick Six Schaub", so he's not going anywhere either.

Stagnation at the top leads to failure. The Eagles stuck with Reid for how many years, and how many rings did it bring them?

Now he's with the Chiefs and looks to turn that place around. Sometimes you just gotta shake things up. But the Texans seem intent to ride the Kubiak/Schaub horse into the ground.
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever. Less than 3 weeks ago Amazing Andre and I went through this entire Schaub debate about as detailed as possible. All that has changed since then is that Schaub has further disproven the myth that he can't drive our team to victory to close games (as if the Lions and Jags games didn't happen last year) while also unfortunately adding to some concerns about throwing damaging ints. While AX2 and I clearly disagree on this topic, neither of us chooses the second after a big loss or a big win to proclaim how right we were all along and we most certainly don't hop into forums with our Texans sigs and proceed to tell fans of that team why their team will never go anywhere and then trot out ignorant lists of people we think are better than their QB. Gosh, if only we had some recent reference point on Philip Rivers vs. Matt Schaub, but I guess I should just count myself lucky Jake Locker's "potential" wasn't included on "the list." I guess there will always be people out there that walk thru life thinking Michael Vick is a better QB than Matt Schaub despite Schaub being superior in every possible objective measure of a QB aside from rushing yards.

For whatever reason, bashing Matt Schaub has always been fashionable and no matter how many times he disproves the various fallacies about him, there is always some new gripe around the corner and some new group of players supposedly better than him. Since Kubiak got here in 06, and we somehow chose to bypass Vince Young's athleticism and Matt Leinart's winning presence, there has always been some version of those two that would be superior to what we ended up with Schaub in 07. There's always some big armed, fast, athletic, "winner" out there who would do better, yet somehow there Schaub sits behind Mannning & Brady in the AFC. There are always those QBs like Eli, Ben, and Flacco who's rings are offered up as proof of their greatness, yet when their defenses, offensive lines, and/or run games aren't the amongst best in the NFL where is the discussion about how they just don't have what it takes? Guess what, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady don't have a ring amongst them in seasons where their defenses and running games weren't peaking and I don't recall Brees or Rodgers rolling thru the playoffs on the strength of their overriding "greatness" the past two seasons.

If you care to read more on the subject, I'd encourage you to explore this thread...
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=529339&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW - AX2 to your point, yes, I would not only spew stats showing why Schaub is better than most on the annual list of players presenting some yet to be proven "upside" alongside players judged by reputations earned years ago when their teams were firing on all cylinders and ask you to explain to me WHY Matt Schaub has not arrived at the same confluence of his ability and the teams as a dozen other Super Bowl QBs since 2000 did from Hasselbeck to Ben to Gannon to Collins to Delhomme to Flacco.

Furthermore, I would ALSO show you why having Matt Schaub is precisely WHY we are "stacked" because we don't pay him $100 million, haven't used dozens of high picks on offense, and haven't burned 10's of millions of dead space chasing players to satisfy the fantasy football crowd. Anyone can come in here and spout off about the Texans needing a new QB, but they never want to explain how taking Cam Newton, Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder would have made us more of a Super Bowl contender than sticking with Schaub and taking JJ Watt. Joe Flacco may in fact be a better QB than Schaub, but considering he cost over twice as much as Schaub, the real argument is whether Flacco is better than Schaub AND all the players we sign or retain with the $60 million difference.
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kanedafx


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
Whatever. Less than 3 weeks ago Amazing Andre and I went through this entire Schaub debate about as detailed as possible. All that has changed since then is that Schaub has further disproven the myth that he can't drive our team to victory to close games (as if the Lions and Jags games didn't happen last year) while also unfortunately adding to some concerns about throwing damaging ints. While AX2 and I clearly disagree on this topic, neither of us chooses the second after a big loss or a big win to proclaim how right we were all along and we most certainly don't hop into forums with our Texans sigs and proceed to tell fans of that team why their team will never go anywhere and then trot out ignorant lists of people we think are better than their QB. Gosh, if only we had some recent reference point on Philip Rivers vs. Matt Schaub, but I guess I should just count myself lucky Jake Locker's "potential" wasn't included on "the list." I guess there will always be people out there that walk thru life thinking Michael Vick is a better QB than Matt Schaub despite Schaub being superior in every possible objective measure of a QB aside from rushing yards.

For whatever reason, bashing Matt Schaub has always been fashionable and no matter how many times he disproves the various fallacies about him, there is always some new gripe around the corner and some new group of players supposedly better than him. Since Kubiak got here in 06, and we somehow chose to bypass Vince Young's athleticism and Matt Leinart's winning presence, there has always been some version of those two that would be superior to what we ended up with Schaub in 07. There's always some big armed, fast, athletic, "winner" out there who would do better, yet somehow there Schaub sits behind Mannning & Brady in the AFC. There are always those QBs like Eli, Ben, and Flacco who's rings are offered up as proof of their greatness, yet when their defenses, offensive lines, and/or run games aren't the amongst best in the NFL where is the discussion about how they just don't have what it takes? Guess what, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady don't have a ring amongst them in seasons where their defenses and running games weren't peaking and I don't recall Brees or Rodgers rolling thru the playoffs on the strength of their overriding "greatness" the past two seasons.

If you care to read more on the subject, I'd encourage you to explore this thread...
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=529339&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


You say this as if the Texans aren't stacked at almost every other position. It's clear to everyone but the most deluded Texans fans that Schaub is what's holding us back (well, and Kubiak).
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Apollo Stallion


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kanedafx wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Whatever. Less than 3 weeks ago Amazing Andre and I went through this entire Schaub debate about as detailed as possible. All that has changed since then is that Schaub has further disproven the myth that he can't drive our team to victory to close games (as if the Lions and Jags games didn't happen last year) while also unfortunately adding to some concerns about throwing damaging ints. While AX2 and I clearly disagree on this topic, neither of us chooses the second after a big loss or a big win to proclaim how right we were all along and we most certainly don't hop into forums with our Texans sigs and proceed to tell fans of that team why their team will never go anywhere and then trot out ignorant lists of people we think are better than their QB. Gosh, if only we had some recent reference point on Philip Rivers vs. Matt Schaub, but I guess I should just count myself lucky Jake Locker's "potential" wasn't included on "the list." I guess there will always be people out there that walk thru life thinking Michael Vick is a better QB than Matt Schaub despite Schaub being superior in every possible objective measure of a QB aside from rushing yards.

For whatever reason, bashing Matt Schaub has always been fashionable and no matter how many times he disproves the various fallacies about him, there is always some new gripe around the corner and some new group of players supposedly better than him. Since Kubiak got here in 06, and we somehow chose to bypass Vince Young's athleticism and Matt Leinart's winning presence, there has always been some version of those two that would be superior to what we ended up with Schaub in 07. There's always some big armed, fast, athletic, "winner" out there who would do better, yet somehow there Schaub sits behind Mannning & Brady in the AFC. There are always those QBs like Eli, Ben, and Flacco who's rings are offered up as proof of their greatness, yet when their defenses, offensive lines, and/or run games aren't the amongst best in the NFL where is the discussion about how they just don't have what it takes? Guess what, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady don't have a ring amongst them in seasons where their defenses and running games weren't peaking and I don't recall Brees or Rodgers rolling thru the playoffs on the strength of their overriding "greatness" the past two seasons.

If you care to read more on the subject, I'd encourage you to explore this thread...
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=529339&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


You say this as if the Texans aren't stacked at almost every other position. It's clear to everyone but the most deluded Texans fans that Schaub is what's holding us back (well, and Kubiak).


Well golly, with that solid reasoning and well researched analysis, I must now concede that you must be right. TJ Yates is the man to take on Seattle & SF. Now that you've solved that maybe you can fix the US health care system or solve global warming. I'm sure your version of "everyone" agrees on the solutions there as well.
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kanedafx


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
kanedafx wrote:
Apollo Stallion wrote:
Whatever. Less than 3 weeks ago Amazing Andre and I went through this entire Schaub debate about as detailed as possible. All that has changed since then is that Schaub has further disproven the myth that he can't drive our team to victory to close games (as if the Lions and Jags games didn't happen last year) while also unfortunately adding to some concerns about throwing damaging ints. While AX2 and I clearly disagree on this topic, neither of us chooses the second after a big loss or a big win to proclaim how right we were all along and we most certainly don't hop into forums with our Texans sigs and proceed to tell fans of that team why their team will never go anywhere and then trot out ignorant lists of people we think are better than their QB. Gosh, if only we had some recent reference point on Philip Rivers vs. Matt Schaub, but I guess I should just count myself lucky Jake Locker's "potential" wasn't included on "the list." I guess there will always be people out there that walk thru life thinking Michael Vick is a better QB than Matt Schaub despite Schaub being superior in every possible objective measure of a QB aside from rushing yards.

For whatever reason, bashing Matt Schaub has always been fashionable and no matter how many times he disproves the various fallacies about him, there is always some new gripe around the corner and some new group of players supposedly better than him. Since Kubiak got here in 06, and we somehow chose to bypass Vince Young's athleticism and Matt Leinart's winning presence, there has always been some version of those two that would be superior to what we ended up with Schaub in 07. There's always some big armed, fast, athletic, "winner" out there who would do better, yet somehow there Schaub sits behind Mannning & Brady in the AFC. There are always those QBs like Eli, Ben, and Flacco who's rings are offered up as proof of their greatness, yet when their defenses, offensive lines, and/or run games aren't the amongst best in the NFL where is the discussion about how they just don't have what it takes? Guess what, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady don't have a ring amongst them in seasons where their defenses and running games weren't peaking and I don't recall Brees or Rodgers rolling thru the playoffs on the strength of their overriding "greatness" the past two seasons.

If you care to read more on the subject, I'd encourage you to explore this thread...
http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=529339&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


You say this as if the Texans aren't stacked at almost every other position. It's clear to everyone but the most deluded Texans fans that Schaub is what's holding us back (well, and Kubiak).


Well golly, with that solid reasoning and well researched analysis, I must now concede that you must be right. TJ Yates is the man to take on Seattle & SF. Now that you've solved that maybe you can fix the US health care system or solve global warming. I'm sure your version of "everyone" agrees on the solutions there as well.


When have I said TJ Yates is the solution? I was talking about PROBLEMS not solutions.

Everyone but the most deluded Texans fans would agree that Schaub is holding the Texans back (and Kubiak too, but no way he's going anywhere). Doubt it all you want, but I will stand by that.

As for solutions, there are a few:
-Trade Schaub for draft picks, move up and get a potential franchise QB
-Trade the farm for Big Ben
-Groom Case Keenum (he has the upside to be a franchise QB, TJ Yates does not)

There are probably more I'm not thinking of, but those seem most obvious. What is also obvious is that we'll never sniff a Lombardi with the Schaub/Kubiak combo.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Unable to overcome the big error

Quarterbacks overcoming their doubters to win the Super Bowl has been a theme in recent seasons and many placed Matt Schaub in the category of players who needed to or were in position to do that this season. At best you could say that this performance from Schaub just heaps further doubt that he can perform Flacco-esque playoff run later in the season. There was some very good throws to intermediate targets in this game for Schaub (5-of-7, 108 yards) but the pick six just before half time was a killer from which he never recovered and never looked capable of matching with a big play of his own. With his primary target limited to 42 snaps, and clearly not at full health when he was on the field, Schaub couldn’t forge the sort of dynamic passing game with his other receivers to engineer the comeback the Texans needed. He saw no pressure on 25-of-38 dropbacks and only mustered 5.3 yards per attempt. He saw no blitz on 29-of-38 dropbacks and could only muster 4.8 yards per attempt including the pick six to Daryl Smith. You start to wonder whether and when the Texans will throw a little more caution to the wind with Schaub and the passing game. Against an offense that was as ponderous as the Texans in what could have been a statement game, the Texans should have been more of a threat to make a comeback in this game.
from PFF

Do not want to get too much into what seems to be a pro vs. anti Schaub debate. Those of you trying to just dump the guy right now apparently (1) do not recognize the salary cap implications & (2) do not appreciate what having a competent (and skilled) QB can do for you. Also the anti-Schaub rhetoric always spikes after a loss.

Schaub may get an unfair amount of criticism BUT THAT IS PART OF BEING A NFL STARTING QB. I have resigned myself to 1 HORRIBLY bad Schaub play per game with the hope that the team can overcome it.
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