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Greatest Pats Team?
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Best team?
1985
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
1996
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
2001
3%
 3%  [ 1 ]
2003
6%
 6%  [ 2 ]
2004
46%
 46%  [ 15 ]
2007
43%
 43%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 32

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mcmurtry86


Joined: 02 Mar 2010
Posts: 24858
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
Randy in 2003 was the best a receiver has ever played in my mind,


I'd probably agree with this. If Moss's 2003 wasn't the best ever from a WR, it's definitely a top 3.


2003 was probably the best combo of his athleticism/intelligence skills. He was probably - physically - 95% of the player he was 1998-2000, but on the field, he knew pretty much exactly what he was doing.

It is either 03 or 98. 1998, 190 yards and 2 tds against GB (75 yarder called back for holding on dif. drive); few weeks later, 9 for 150 and 1 TD vs. GB again. Following week, 3catches, 163 yards and 3 TDs @ Dallas. Next week, Cris Carter out, "all the focus will be on Moss" - another 100 yards and 3 touchdowns. Scores in every game remaining that season. NFC Championship game 34 yard td 5 plays into the drive.

"We knew we had the Super Bowl won as soon as the Vikings lost cuz we didnt have to play randy moss.. It was as simple as that.. We were terrified of that dude". Trevor pryce Denver broncos

Very Happy


That 1998 Vikings team was one of the 5 best teams of all time. Definitely better than the 2007 Patriots IMO based on how consistent the Vikings were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-3DDFGvnII

That Anderson miss is one of the most shocking things I've ever seen live in a football game, literally jaw dropping. My reaction was pretty much the same as Trevor Pryce's. Once that kick missed, you could feel the Vikings just stunned and deflated. Even though they were still up at that point, it seemed inevitable that Atlanta would win.

Probably one of the 5-10 most memorable non-Patriots moments I've watched. Right up there with Scott Norwood's miss, the Music City Miracle, Frank Reich's comeback (funnily enough, all Bills memories), John Taylor's TD, The Catch, Kellen Winslow being carried off the field and a few others.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
That Anderson miss is one of the most shocking things I've ever seen live in a football game, literally jaw dropping. My reaction was pretty much the same as Trevor Pryce's. Once that kick missed, you could feel the Vikings just stunned and deflated. Even though they were still up at that point, it seemed inevitable that Atlanta would win.


SO CLOSE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XMJSVndf18&t=2h23m51s

Quote:
Probably one of the 5-10 most memorable non-Patriots moments I've watched. Right up there with Scott Norwood's miss, the Music City Miracle, Frank Reich's comeback (funnily enough, all Bills memories), John Taylor's TD, The Catch, Kellen Winslow being carried off the field and a few others.


TBH, the 1998 Minnesota Vikings just seems like a story built for film. One of the great comeback seasons in NFL history by Randall Cunningham, the most electrifying rookie in ever in Randy Moss, and an aging veteran seeking an illusive ring in Cris Carter, who coincidentally was a former teammate and old friend of "washed up" Cunningham. Dennis Greens post game, season ending speech to his crushed team about how "you don't know you're the best when you win, you know you're best when you know you have left every ounce out on the field. The best doesn't win every game, they just win more than anybody else. Regardless of what's happened, we can carry our heads higher now than at the beginning of the season, because win or lose, I know we were the best this season' while RC cries in a corner as CC tries to explain to Moss (whose collective teams had lost 2 games in the past 7 years he played football, going back to high school aka he knew nothing but utter dominance) the gravity of what had happened. The ESPN locker room footage used to be on youtube and is nothing more than heart breaking. All these teary eyed fans walking, a ton of people calling in, whining the super bowl is going to suck now. And of course the goat of the whole deal is Gary Anderson, who was arguably the best at his position on the entire team considering he had not missed all season until that moment.
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FosterTheSkins


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2001 Patriots, for me.
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Avicii


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:


As far as the yardage per game number you mention, I'd curious to see how the 07 # compares to the rest of the 07 teams vs. the future Pats teams and their respective seasons.


2007 Patriots:

6580 yards offense
5203.5 league average

1376.50 more than average (86 yards per game more than average)

2012 Patriots

6846 yards offense
5555.2 league average

1290.8 more than average (81 yards per game more than average)

2011 Patriots

6848 yards offense
5549.3 league average

1298.7 more than average (81 yards per game more than average)


Non-Patriots:

2011 Saints

7474 yards offense
5549.3 league average

1924.70 more than average (120 yards per game more than average)

2004 Chiefs

6695 yards offense
5234.60 league average

1460.4 more than league average (91 yards per game more than average)

2004 Colts

6475 yards offense
5234.60 league average
1240.4 more than league average (78 yards per game more than average)


2008 Saints

6571 yards offense
5235.8 league average
1335.2 more than league average (84 yards per game more than average)


The 2007 Patriots were not especially more dominant than plenty of other great offenses over the past 10 years (and worse than the 2004 Chiefs who nobody outside of Chiefs fans really remembers as a great offense). Especially when you factor in the degree to which their early season success skewed their results. Every offense has bad games, but the 2007 team was like an entirely different (and nowhere near as dominant) offense for the final 11 games of their 2007 campaign.


Yards aren't important. Points are. Can we get a breakdown of the points compared to the average?
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dhunt2402


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

'03 was my favorite team, maybe the best maybe not, but from that goal line stand game in Indy on I never felt they would lose a game. Much different to '07 which was a constant worry over the second half of the season/playoffs of losing the perfect record, with pretty much all the games being nailbiters save a few. That defense was fun too, Mt. Washington, Eugene Wilson flying around (what happened him Sad), Rodney's first year, Vrabel coming into his own.

Though I'm trying to imagine this board after the '03 season opener against Buffalo, and I'm really entertained by the thought. Coming off 9-7 and missing the playoffs, blown out (excuse me, shut out) by the Bledsoe/Milloy led Bills. The calls for Belichick/Brady's heads would have been deafening Laughing
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Jmacz008


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To everyone saying the 2004 team would easily beat the 2007 team. Under what rules do you call this happening under? The 2004 rules where P.I. and contact with receivers were much different or the rules in 2007?

Because I think whatevever team is playing with the rules used during there season wins the game pretty easily.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jmacz008 wrote:
To everyone saying the 2004 team would easily beat the 2007 team. Under what rules do you call this happening under? The 2004 rules where P.I. and contact with receivers were much different or the rules in 2007?

Because I think whatevever team is playing with the rules used during there season wins the game pretty easily.


The 2004 Patriots were superior to the 2007 Giants. If those Giants could beat the Pats once and almost beat them another time, I don't think the 2004 Pats lose "easily" or at all. Especially if Romeo Crennel is coaching that D.
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dhunt2402


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Jmacz008 wrote:
To everyone saying the 2004 team would easily beat the 2007 team. Under what rules do you call this happening under? The 2004 rules where P.I. and contact with receivers were much different or the rules in 2007?

Because I think whatevever team is playing with the rules used during there season wins the game pretty easily.


The 2004 Patriots were superior to the 2007 Giants. If those Giants could beat the Pats once and almost beat them another time, I don't think the 2004 Pats lose "easily" or at all. Especially if Romeo Crennel is coaching that D.


The 2007 Patriots were superior to the 2007 Giants.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dhunt2402 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Jmacz008 wrote:
To everyone saying the 2004 team would easily beat the 2007 team. Under what rules do you call this happening under? The 2004 rules where P.I. and contact with receivers were much different or the rules in 2007?

Because I think whatevever team is playing with the rules used during there season wins the game pretty easily.


The 2004 Patriots were superior to the 2007 Giants. If those Giants could beat the Pats once and almost beat them another time, I don't think the 2004 Pats lose "easily" or at all. Especially if Romeo Crennel is coaching that D.


The 2007 Patriots were superior to the 2007 Giants.


Perhaps. But they lost to them. So it's fair to say the 2004 Patriots, a team we'd all agree is better than the 2007 Giants, would have or could have beaten the 2007 Patriots as well.

The 2007 Patriots' vulnerabilities were along the lines against physical opponents. The 2004 Pats would have exploited that weakness. The 2004 team also probably could have run on the 2007 defense and their secondary was far superior to the 2007 Giants.

Anyone claiming the 2007 Patriots would have won "easily" is really ignoring both that team's weaknesses and the 2004 team's strengths.
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FirstDownFaulk


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greatest team - '04 Patriots
Most exciting - '07 Patriots
Most fun to watch - '01 Patriots
Most painful to watch - '90 Patriots
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Tom Brady hasn't left NE and proven himself not to be a system QB...so he is one.

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dhunt2402


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
dhunt2402 wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
Jmacz008 wrote:
To everyone saying the 2004 team would easily beat the 2007 team. Under what rules do you call this happening under? The 2004 rules where P.I. and contact with receivers were much different or the rules in 2007?

Because I think whatevever team is playing with the rules used during there season wins the game pretty easily.


The 2004 Patriots were superior to the 2007 Giants. If those Giants could beat the Pats once and almost beat them another time, I don't think the 2004 Pats lose "easily" or at all. Especially if Romeo Crennel is coaching that D.


The 2007 Patriots were superior to the 2007 Giants.


Perhaps. But they lost to them. So it's fair to say the 2004 Patriots, a team we'd all agree is better than the 2007 Giants, would have or could have beaten the 2007 Patriots as well.

The 2007 Patriots' vulnerabilities were along the lines against physical opponents. The 2004 Pats would have exploited that weakness. The 2004 team also probably could have run on the 2007 defense and their secondary was far superior to the 2007 Giants.

Anyone claiming the 2007 Patriots would have won "easily" is really ignoring both that team's weaknesses and the 2004 team's strengths.


Well sure, they "would have or could have" beaten the 07 Patriots, but that really doesn't prove anything, you could say the same thing about the reverse. "They lost to them" is a pretty crappy argument too -- as if the best team always wins?

I think they're very closely matched, but part of the reason the 04 team was so effective physically on defense is because they were allowed to be. After Polian kicked up his stink about PI and illegal contact, that style of play wasn't really feasible anymore. And without that benefit, I'm not really sure the guys we played, hell even started in our secondary in 04 (Randall Gay, Ty Poole, Earthwind Moreland, Dexter Reid) would be able to contain the 07 passing attack.
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tbperk


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
2004 and I don't think it's particularly close.


You can put up all the stats about the 2007 team you want, when it comes to the "eye test" I'm with mcmurtry.
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mission27


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
Perhaps. But they lost to them. So it's fair to say the 2004 Patriots, a team we'd all agree is better than the 2007 Giants, would have or could have beaten the 2007 Patriots as well.


Which is a totally meaningless thing to say. The 2007 Patriots were a flukey drive away from losing to the 2007 Ravens. The 2007 Cowboys were a much better team than the 2007 Ravens. If the 2007 Ravens could almost beat the 2007 Patriots it would be reasonable to argue that the 2007 Cowboys could conceivable beat or come close to beating the 2007 Patriots. And yet the 2007 Patriots easily beat the 2007 Cowboys.

Any team can win any game against any opponent. The 2004 Patriots could obviously beat the 2007 Patriots. Is it likely that an 18-1 team that out scored their opponents by an average of nearly three touchdowns over the regular season would lose a given game, even to a very good 2004 Patriots team? In my opinion, absolutely not.

Yeah they lost to the Giants. A 2007 Giants team that was playing elite football and was a terrible matchup in a game in which the Giants made several borderline miraculous plays and the Patriots played like crap and made a ton of big mistakes. They lost that game in the last seconds by three points. If you play that game over again 10 times, I think the Pats probably win 7 or 8 of those games at the very least.
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Jmacz008


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just remember a hobbled T.O. consistently beating us in that Superbowl. Didn't he end up having 11 catches? I can't even imagine what a healthy Moss would of done with a much better QB in Brady compared to McNabb.

I understand the whole concept that the 2004 team won the whole thing and the 2007 team didn't. But when you look at some of the matchups it's hard to say for sure that one team would beat the other.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mission27 wrote:


Any team can win any game against any opponent. The 2004 Patriots could obviously beat the 2007 Patriots. Is it likely that an 18-1 team that out scored their opponents by an average of nearly three touchdowns over the regular season would lose a given game, even to a very good 2004 Patriots team? In my opinion, absolutely not.


For the final 8 games and 3 playoff games of each team's season, here is the total point differential:

2004 Patriots = +149 (23,8,21,27,7,-1,16,14,17,14,3).

314 points scored, 165 points allowed
362 yards per game, 299 yards allowed per game
14 giveaways, 35 takeaways
Final 11 opponents, combined record 93-83

2007 Patriots = +128 (4,46,3,3,21,10,21,3,11,9,-3)

324 points scored, 196 points allowed
371 yards per game, 315 yards allowed per game
12 givewaays, 18 takeaways
Final 11 opponents, combined record 90-86

Which team was more dominant down the stretch?

On average, they were playing pretty similarly strength opponents. The 2004 team had a bit of a tougher road through the playoffs though.

I'll say it again - the 2007 Patriots are wildly overrated because of their ridiculous numbers the first part of the season. If these two teams matched up in the Super Bowl (in either season) the 2004 team would feature the better performing defense and the two teams were pretty close on offense - much closer than people realize.

A 17-2 team which played better defensively, forced more turnovers and was 1 point per game worse on offense vs. an 18-1 team that was worse defensively, made fewer big plays and scored 1 point more.

Furthermore, the 2007 team was 26th in the league in yards per rush allowed and - as we all know - struggled with big, physical DL. For all the "Moss would destroy Asante Samuel, Welker would destroy Gay" talk (granted, they didn't do any such thing to New York or San Diego), Corey Dillon and Richard Seymour would have been brutal matchups for the 2007 team. I also trust that Crennel/Weis would coach circles around McDaniels/Pees.

Really the only argument for the 2007 team is their early season offensive success against mostly awful teams and the presence of Randy Moss and Wes Welker. But as good and as game-changing as those guys were on paper, the 2004 front 7 was in reality. As much as Moss and Welker were considered elite weapons (which they undeniably were) who could take over a game, Corey Dillon actually did take over games. That's what it comes down to for me. That 2004 team rose up and its best players consistently showed up and played great outside of the end of that awful Dolphins game. The 2007 team's best players showed up against the Giants in the season finale but otherwise put up their best numbers against bad teams.

The talent levels on those two rosters were comparable, even as great as Moss was in 2007. If you don't think that's the case, you're severely underrating how great Dillon, the 2004 OL and 2004 front 7 were that year. You can talk about the scrubs the 2004 team had in the secondary at times but the fact that they still had a great defense tells you all you need to know about that front 7and coaching.

Given the matchups, each team's weaknesses and strengths, the overall quality of the coaching, the overall talent of each roster, I maintain that the 2004 team would beat the 2007 team if those two teams met in the Super Bowl. If they met in week 1? It's probably a different story although let's not forget that the 2004 team had Ty Law on opening day and IMO he would have matched up well against Moss.
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