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Week 3- Packers @ Bengals
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theJ


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

INbengalfan wrote:
TheVillain112 wrote:
Rewatched the game last light. Geno did pretty well in the first half and so-so in the 2nd. Teams are definitely paying him a lot more attention. He beat his man multiple times only to have another OLinemen waiting for him. Just going to be that kind of season...


I might be wrong, but it also seemed like Zimmer was willing to give up Geno going all out after Rogers to trying to keep him contained in the pocket. Rogers was money all day when scrambling, not so much in the pocket. But again, I might be wrong on that. It also seemed the d-ends did the same on the last drive. Arms up, contain the pocket.

That last drive they were definitely playing the quick pass. That was a result of the first couple of throws where Rodgers kept hitting a WR for a 5 yard out and 5 yard YAC for the first down. So the DE's responded by driving upfield a few yards and getting their hands up to disrupt the quick throw.

The greatest part about the MJ bat down on 4th down was that the Packers knew he was going to do that. Carlos had just batted one down on third down, so the Packers dove at the knees of MJ and whatever DT was next to him. They didn't count on the fact that MJ could keep his balance and get his 6'7" frame up enough to bat down the last one.
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Carson4MVP


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

theJ wrote:
Carson4MVP wrote:
By "white hot" do you mean a team that has won 1 game this year and averages giving up 30 points a game with a pretty easy schedule this year?

You cannot have a QB play like a turd for 3 quarters and expect to beat Denver, Houston, Baltimore... Hell even teams like KC and NE will eat him up in the playoffs. He is good enough to get us to 9-7, 10-6 and possibly 11-5 on an easy schedule year, but then it will be an early exit in the WC round every year.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on him.

The funny this is, i actually agree with your premise. I haven't seen Dalton put the team on his shoulders and win a big game. And that bothers me. I still want to see that, and until i do i won't fully believe. But i'm not ready to give up on him either because he's shown the ability to play really well.

The thing that made me argue with you is that you picked this game to go off on the subject. Dalton's third and fourth quarter were really good. The first and second were full of turnovers (not all his fault, but won't make excuses for the two he had other than to say that other QB's do that too) and one scoring drive. So to say he played like a turd for 3 quarters is a little harsh. It's a lot harsh actually. So i guess i just don't understand the timing of the comment.


I was going off of this week and last week really. It wasn't just his 2 turnovers. It is his bad decision making(trying to tuck it and run and running right into a sack instead of staying in the pocket this game), his terrible accuracy last week, his propensity for turnovers in big moments in the game and he just doesnt have the killer instinct to finish off a down opponent. I may be the only person on the planet that sees this apparently according to this site... But I can tell you, unless he does a complete 180 like Drew Brees did in San Diego, we are a sunken ship before the playoffs even begin.
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theJ


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carson4MVP wrote:
I was going off of this week and last week really. It wasn't just his 2 turnovers. It is his bad decision making(trying to tuck it and run and running right into a sack instead of staying in the pocket this game), his terrible accuracy last week, his propensity for turnovers in big moments in the game and he just doesnt have the killer instinct to finish off a down opponent. I may be the only person on the planet that sees this apparently according to this site... But I can tell you, unless he does a complete 180 like Drew Brees did in San Diego, we are a sunken ship before the playoffs even begin.

I don't disagree. I do see those things. I just haven't seen them the past two games. Three touchdowns and no turnovers in the second half of each of the past two games. Both of those second halves were very well managed and well played by Dalton, IMO.

The first halves were stinkers, but if we're talking about coming up big in big moments, then i can't see how you criticize him based on these two games.

EDIT: now i'm not trying to use these two games as proof that he can do all those things you're worried about. I don't think these games necessarily proved anything. But what i'm trying to say is that i don't think either of these games proved that can't do these things either.

For instance: what if Jon Franklin hadn't fumbled but had been stopped short? Andy would have gotten the ball back with a chance to score another TD after just capping off two TD drives. Entirely possible he gets it. Are you making this argument if that happens?
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carson4MVP wrote:
By "white hot" do you mean a team that has won 1 game this year and averages giving up 30 points a game with a pretty easy schedule this year?
Yeah, after watching the Packers offence put 66 points on the Redskins and 49ers defences in their opening two weeks, yeah, I'd call it white-hot.........
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carson4MVP wrote:
You cannot have a QB play like a turd for 3 quarters
But he didn't.

IIRC, he went 20 for 28 for petes sake. He threw the INT, we don't know if it was Andys fault or AJ's or just a great play by the CB. You can't blame him for the fumbles by BJGE or Gresham, and most QB's would lose the ball on the fumble when getting whacked from behind.

Carson4MVP wrote:
He is good enough to get us to 9-7, 10-6 and possibly 11-5
That's fine then; I'll take a QB that gets us to the play-offs every year.

After 30 years of pain watching this team endlessly fail; at last we have the makings of a winning team, I think we should watch Dalton develop a bit more before ditching his a$$

Opening 35 reg.season games = 21 wins.
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Carson4MVP


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Carson4MVP wrote:
By "white hot" do you mean a team that has won 1 game this year and averages giving up 30 points a game with a pretty easy schedule this year?
Yeah, after watching the Packers offence put 66 points on the Redskins and 49ers defences in their opening two weeks, yeah, I'd call it white-hot.........


Those are 2 bad defenses. Yes I said the 49ers are a bad defensive team. They are playing like S*** this year. They scored 16 points on a team that gave the ball away 4 times in the half? And the only reason they got those 16 points in the first half were because of the offensive turnovers. The Pack have a good offense, but you can't assume they are "white hot" because they put up a bunch of points on crap defenses. If that were the case Dalton would be an All-Pro.
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Carson4MVP


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LondonBengal wrote:
Carson4MVP wrote:
You cannot have a QB play like a turd for 3 quarters
But he didn't.

IIRC, he went 20 for 28 for petes sake. He threw the INT, we don't know if it was Andys fault or AJ's or just a great play by the CB. You can't blame him for the fumbles by BJGE or Gresham, and most QB's would lose the ball on the fumble when getting whacked from behind.

Carson4MVP wrote:
He is good enough to get us to 9-7, 10-6 and possibly 11-5
That's fine then; I'll take a QB that gets us to the play-offs every year.

After 30 years of pain watching this team endlessly fail; at last we have the makings of a winning team, I think we should watch Dalton develop a bit more before ditching his a$$

Opening 35 reg.season games = 21 wins.


I have said all along if everyone is happy 9-7 10-6 and happy losing in the WC round every year, that Dalton is fine. I am not happy with that so I want him replaced. We agree on the point that he isn't good enough to win in the playoffs, you are just ok with that. I am not.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carson4MVP wrote:
I want him replaced.
Have fun finding a QB who can go better than 21 wins in his opening 35 reg season starts.

Perhaps we should start a new poll thread asking whether Dalton gets a) dumped or; b) a shiny new contract after this season ?
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carson4MVP wrote:
LondonBengal wrote:
Carson4MVP wrote:
You cannot have a QB play like a turd for 3 quarters
But he didn't.

IIRC, he went 20 for 28 for petes sake. He threw the INT, we don't know if it was Andys fault or AJ's or just a great play by the CB. You can't blame him for the fumbles by BJGE or Gresham, and most QB's would lose the ball on the fumble when getting whacked from behind.

Carson4MVP wrote:
He is good enough to get us to 9-7, 10-6 and possibly 11-5
That's fine then; I'll take a QB that gets us to the play-offs every year.

After 30 years of pain watching this team endlessly fail; at last we have the makings of a winning team, I think we should watch Dalton develop a bit more before ditching his a$$

Opening 35 reg.season games = 21 wins.


I have said all along if everyone is happy 9-7 10-6 and happy losing in the WC round every year, that Dalton is fine. I am not happy with that so I want him replaced. We agree on the point that he isn't good enough to win in the playoffs, you are just ok with that. I am not.


No, I am not happy with losing in the wildcard each year, and its quite ridiculous to suggest otherwise, but making the play-offs at all is a step forward for the Bengals.

Like all Bengal fans, I want us to make it to the Superbowl and win it all, like the Ravens and Steelers have done in recent years. I just think your criticism of Dalton is inbalanced and flies in the face of all the stats he has put up.

Dalton is far from perfect, and I agree we need to look at improving our QB position next draft, but I also think that right now Dalton is our best bet going forward to get deeper into the play-offs, and I believe Dalton will improve this season over last with the weapons he now has.

Last week, the Colts needed to improve their RB's and traded their 1st next year for Trent Richardson. Using our 1st next year, is there a QB you see out there we could trade for that would get us to; say the AFC Championship game and beat a Manning, Brady or Flacco ?

If you want rid of Dalton, you better start suggesting who we could realistically replace him with.
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INbengalfan


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eli manning might be available soon.....
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theJ


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INbengalfan wrote:
Eli manning might be available soon.....

Eh, that's a toss-up. Eli has proven things in this league, but the last few years haven't been good (even though his stats are about the same). He just throws total duds sometimes. Personally i doubt he ever makes another SB again. And i wouldn't be surprised if his teams never sniffed the divisional round again.

With Dalton people can claim that this team won't win a playoff game with him, but it's all just talk until they play a non-Houston team in the playoffs. Remember when it was en vogue to say that Manning couldn't win the big one? New England had his number...until they didn't. Things can change all at once. It'd be a major mistake to replace Dalton at this point, based on a belief that has never held water in the NFL.

This Dalton debate is fun. We rarely have these kind of things on board.

LondonBengal wrote:
If you want rid of Dalton, you better start suggesting who we could realistically replace him with.

They certainly won't find one in the draft, picking in the late 20's Wink
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Beck Bristow


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jay Cutler is a free agent after this season.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

INbengalfan wrote:
Eli manning might be available soon.....


or Mike Vick.

Don't think a pick in the 20's gets you a trade for either right now.

We could offer ARZ a 1st next year for Carson Palmer. That would make some Bengal fans happy apparently Laughing ........
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Carson4MVP


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would take any of the above honestly besides Carson. Just because my name was created when he is here does not mean I want him back in stripes. He quit on the Bengals and while I can see why he did it 3 years ago, I don't want him back.

There are 4 ways I would be ok with replacing Dalton. I would be happy with any of the below, in no particular order...

1. Signing a big name free agent listed above. Signing a mediocre QB like Sanchez is NOT the same.

2. Using our mid range first or 2nd round pick on a guy we can sit for a year behind Dalton next year. Let Dalton walk when his contract is up, or sign him to a modest backup QB contract.

3. Package Dalton our 1st and possibly another pick to move into the top 5 and get one of the Franchise QB's in this draft as there are a couple that could be ready to play immediately.

4. The least likely, trading Dalton and a pick to get a better QB in the NFL currently like a Tannehill, Romo or Flacco. Like I said, this one is not realistic option.
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LondonBengal


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off 'C4MVP', sorry for the Palmer line, it was a cheap shot, and I apologise.

Carson4MVP wrote:
I would take any of the above honestly besides Carson.
After watching Mike Vick the first 3 weeks, you would really trade away a 1st for him ? I haven't looked up the numbers, but I would guess Vick has played a lot worse than Dalton; both him and Eli have thrown a gazillion INT's so far, No way the Giants would trade Eli Manning for 2 x 1sts in any case, because they know he's their best chance to win, even @ 0-3.

Carson4MVP wrote:
1. Signing a big name free agent listed above. Signing a mediocre QB like Sanchez is NOT the same.
Not sure which FA QB's are free agents next year, but I suspect if Jay Cutler continues to play like he has thru 3, the Bears will give him what he wants at spme point before free agency. Dude looked like a franchise QB to me in PIT Monday night. Another name to realistically consider is Josh Freeman in TB. Looks like he's fallen out big time with Schiano; they have Mike Glennon behind him, and he knows Grudens system. You think Freeman would deliver 22 wins in his opening 35 Bengal games? Doubt it.

Carson4MVP wrote:
2. Using our mid range first or 2nd round pick on a guy we can sit for a year behind Dalton next year. Let Dalton walk when his contract is up, or sign him to a modest backup QB contract.
That's interesting. I thought you wanted Dalton out? Now you're suggesting we draft a guy to sit behind Dalton a year with the clipboard. Plus I haven't seen a competent QB in college ball this year likely to be there around #20, who looks capable of outperforming Dalton. Beyond the first couple of guys I just don't see it this year. I don't think personally Johnny Football is a NFL calibre QB, and most boards have him as the sort of guy we could be looking at around '20 ish

Carson4MVP wrote:
3. Package Dalton our 1st and possibly another pick to move into the top 5 and get one of the Franchise QB's in this draft as there are a couple that could be ready to play immediately.
That's fine, but Dalton excelled in his first year without a camp. Do we have as much 'ammo; to trade up as a Cleveland ? ...and, if Dalton is as bad as you say he is, and is only worth a 4th/5th rounder, who is likely to trade down and give up a shot at a Bridgewater or Boyd......and remember a Boyd/ Bridgewater has to do better than 21 of 35 to open with.

Carson4MVP wrote:
4. The least likely, trading Dalton and a pick to get a better QB in the NFL currently like a Tannehill, Romo or Flacco. Like I said, this one is not realistic option.
Its kinda funny how you think Dalton is a bum, but you expect a 1st/2nd round grade when you want to trade him. Do you seriously think MIA, DAL or BAL would trade away their proven franchise QB's; (2 of which have just gotten big extensions), to the Bengals for Andy Dalton and #20ish ?

The other option is to sit Dalton, and give Josh Johnson the reins, but he looked less accurate than Dalton in pre-season, so be careful what you wish for. Johnsons passing looked doubtful, but he sure would add some running yards to the game, and would then get knocked-out by some angry linebacker right about his 3rd start when opponents have some tape on him and know whats comin'.

All in all; I'm sticking with Andy, and see how the season goes; and re-assess him when its time to look at a new deal for him .
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