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Why I still have faith.
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BLick12


Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
The problem is that the first two weeks of the season, by absolutely no measure, is representative of the quarterback we know Vick to be. Last night WAS the Vick we were all AFRAID he would still be.

Terrible reads, staring down receivers, throwing off his back foot, and throws being batted down.

It's not about the interceptions, it's about reverting to the old "I'll run 100 yards in the first half but only throw 40 yards" Michael Vick.

Vick doesn't and has never dictated coverage. We saw Brandon Boykin DRAPED all over a receiver last week, and Phillip Rivers made a perfect throw that great coverage simply cannot do anything about. Michael Vick will NOT make those throws. Vick doesn't dictate coverage, he only takes advantage of them when guys have clear separation.


Newsflash, Mike Vick doesn't have receivers that can make that catch. Rivers has Gates and Malcolm Floyd, what big receiver that can get up does Vick have exactly? Say Brent Celek and I'll roll on the floor right now.

The Eagles have small crappy receivers that are useless on jump balls and not particularly great at getting open either. Vick isn't the only QB in the NFL without pin point accuracy, and FWIW he made a perfect lob pass to Cooper last night and it was dropped for what should've been a huge gain.

This offense has helped Vick tremendously, he has less to read defensively and can make the more instinctual plays. His first pick last night was awful, absolutely 100% all on him and that can't happen. But that does happen from time to time to every QB in the NFL, hell, Peyton Manning threw a pick like that in the playoffs last year. But don't think about bashing the guy because he doesn't have confidence to throw a jump ball to Desean Jackson, that is just hilarious.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to say we have the greatest wide-outs, and yeah there were missed catches.

But Vick, mechanically, was depressing last night. Vick played well in the first two weeks... with the SAME receivers he had last night. He wasn't throwing off his back foot or staring guys down against the Redskins (from what I remember). He wasn't getting his throws batted down against the Chargers.

I'm willing to write last night off as a result of
a) the stupidity of having to play a game with three days in-between
b) Reid knowing exactly what Vick's weaknesses are
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
I'm not going to say we have the greatest wide-outs, and yeah there were missed catches.

But Vick, mechanically, was depressing last night. Vick played well in the first two weeks... with the SAME receivers he had last night. He wasn't throwing off his back foot or staring guys down against the Redskins (from what I remember). He wasn't getting his throws batted down against the Chargers.

I'm willing to write last night off as a result of
a) the stupidity of having to play a game with three days in-between
b) Reid knowing exactly what Vick's weaknesses are


He also had more time to throw the first 2 weeks. The Eagles got themselves in a hole where they had to throw and it didn't bode well for Lane Johnson or Mike Vick. The chiefs did a good job of collapsing the pocket and getting hands up and at least making Vick uncomfortable in the pocket. The Eagles receivers finally faced some decent corners and showed their true colors.

At the end of the day if our defense gets a 3rd and 15 stop with KC on their own 5 yard line, despite how bad Mike Vick played last night, the Eagles would've been in excellent position to score to tie the game (or take the lead if Chip Kelly didn't go full college-retard on the 2 pt conversion).
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Kempes


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:
Phire wrote:
The problem is that the first two weeks of the season, by absolutely no measure, is representative of the quarterback we know Vick to be. Last night WAS the Vick we were all AFRAID he would still be.

Terrible reads, staring down receivers, throwing off his back foot, and throws being batted down.

It's not about the interceptions, it's about reverting to the old "I'll run 100 yards in the first half but only throw 40 yards" Michael Vick.

Vick doesn't and has never dictated coverage. We saw Brandon Boykin DRAPED all over a receiver last week, and Phillip Rivers made a perfect throw that great coverage simply cannot do anything about. Michael Vick will NOT make those throws. Vick doesn't dictate coverage, he only takes advantage of them when guys have clear separation.


Newsflash, Mike Vick doesn't have receivers that can make that catch. Rivers has Gates and Malcolm Floyd, what big receiver that can get up does Vick have exactly? Say Brent Celek and I'll roll on the floor right now.

The Eagles have small crappy receivers that are useless on jump balls and not particularly great at getting open either. Vick isn't the only QB in the NFL without pin point accuracy, and FWIW he made a perfect lob pass to Cooper last night and it was dropped for what should've been a huge gain.

This offense has helped Vick tremendously, he has less to read defensively and can make the more instinctual plays. His first pick last night was awful, absolutely 100% all on him and that can't happen. But that does happen from time to time to every QB in the NFL, hell, Peyton Manning threw a pick like that in the playoffs last year. But don't think about bashing the guy because he doesn't have confidence to throw a jump ball to Desean Jackson, that is just hilarious.


I'm not a Vick fan but I agree with this.

We don't have a truly secure pair of hands that we can rely on like a lot of other teams. Even when Maclin is healthy, we don't. It showed in the Chargers game with Gates, what a trustworthy catcher can do for your team. Royal was the game-changer in the same way Jackson can be for us, but they had Gates to steady the ship in between those big TD plays, we didn't.

It's the same whoever is QB. When Foles came into the game for that 1 play and attempted a high ball for Jackson in the corner... really? He's 5'10 and we're throwing them up for him as our best option to convert the drive?

I look at Dallas' receivers and see Bryant, Witten. There's two top catchers who you feel comfortable going to at crunch time.

I look at us on third and 10 and think 'who the hell is gonna catch this one one then?'.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:
Phire wrote:
I'm not going to say we have the greatest wide-outs, and yeah there were missed catches.

But Vick, mechanically, was depressing last night. Vick played well in the first two weeks... with the SAME receivers he had last night. He wasn't throwing off his back foot or staring guys down against the Redskins (from what I remember). He wasn't getting his throws batted down against the Chargers.

I'm willing to write last night off as a result of
a) the stupidity of having to play a game with three days in-between
b) Reid knowing exactly what Vick's weaknesses are


He also had more time to throw the first 2 weeks. The Eagles got themselves in a hole where they had to throw and it didn't bode well for Lane Johnson or Mike Vick. The chiefs did a good job of collapsing the pocket and getting hands up and at least making Vick uncomfortable in the pocket. The Eagles receivers finally faced some decent corners and showed their true colors.

At the end of the day if our defense gets a 3rd and 15 stop with KC on their own 5 yard line, despite how bad Mike Vick played last night, the Eagles would've been in excellent position to score to tie the game (or take the lead if Chip Kelly didn't go full college-retard on the 2 pt conversion).

All the excuses are cute, but come on now. Vick's mechanics were NOT pretty. You can include all the other things about the receivers showing their true colors (and by my estimation, so did Vick) and I'm not willing to deny the points you're coming up with.

The Celek throw to start the game set the stage for the rest of the game. There were multiple plays where he had time, yet, his throws were off. We even saw a McNabb worm-burner. He was missing throws. Sure, receivers didn't help, but he wasn't helping the receivers either.

I said this in a different thread, but I think this year should be used for mechanical evaluation, not evaluation of wins or losses. Whether we win or lose a game, we should be looking for whether Billy Davis can adjust. Whether we win or lose, we should be looking at whether our starting quarterback, who was forced to restructure his contract for less job security, is mechanically sound enough to shift this team from a losing team to a winning team. The results come after.

WR is a top 3 need for me at this point, but whether they're dropping or catching balls or not, we can still look at Vick's mechanics. Yeah, the pressure got to him, and the Chiefs defense is no joke at this point in the season.

But he was just making bad throws last night and there is no way around it.
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Hockey5djh


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the easiest statement to talk about.

Why I still have faith:

- We're only 3 FREAKIN GAMES into the season with a brand new coach and a brand new scheme on both offense and defense.

- We've seen flashes of greatness despite not having a "QB of the Future" and our DC not having any of "his players".

- We're 20 million under the cap

- Depite being 1-2 we're still second in the division and at the VERY worst after this week we're tied for second and despite being 1-2 we were only a couple plays away from being 3-0.


I think the worst thing that happened to this team was the first half of the Redskins game. People had lower expectations going into the season and after that game people started talking winning records and playoffs.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, the best thing that can happen this season is progress, not numbers. I will be a happy fan if we go 5-11 and are in every game. This season is about allowing the team to learn the system and get through the growing pains of a rookie coach, not winning a superbowl.
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Dr. Philly


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why I have faith
We should have a new secondary next year.
Offense isn't that bad. (WR's are dudu though outside of Jackson and Avant)
Division is some crap as well
Team has shown signs of progression.
Jones is a good punter
Team should get some well needed rest this week.
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Phire wrote:
I'm not going to say we have the greatest wide-outs, and yeah there were missed catches.

But Vick, mechanically, was depressing last night. Vick played well in the first two weeks... with the SAME receivers he had last night. He wasn't throwing off his back foot or staring guys down against the Redskins (from what I remember). He wasn't getting his throws batted down against the Chargers.

I'm willing to write last night off as a result of
a) the stupidity of having to play a game with three days in-between
b) Reid knowing exactly what Vick's weaknesses are


He also had more time to throw the first 2 weeks. The Eagles got themselves in a hole where they had to throw and it didn't bode well for Lane Johnson or Mike Vick. The chiefs did a good job of collapsing the pocket and getting hands up and at least making Vick uncomfortable in the pocket. The Eagles receivers finally faced some decent corners and showed their true colors.

At the end of the day if our defense gets a 3rd and 15 stop with KC on their own 5 yard line, despite how bad Mike Vick played last night, the Eagles would've been in excellent position to score to tie the game (or take the lead if Chip Kelly didn't go full college-retard on the 2 pt conversion).

All the excuses are cute, but come on now. Vick's mechanics were NOT pretty. You can include all the other things about the receivers showing their true colors (and by my estimation, so did Vick) and I'm not willing to deny the points you're coming up with.

The Celek throw to start the game set the stage for the rest of the game. There were multiple plays where he had time, yet, his throws were off. We even saw a McNabb worm-burner. He was missing throws. Sure, receivers didn't help, but he wasn't helping the receivers either.

I said this in a different thread, but I think this year should be used for mechanical evaluation, not evaluation of wins or losses. Whether we win or lose a game, we should be looking for whether Billy Davis can adjust. Whether we win or lose, we should be looking at whether our starting quarterback, who was forced to restructure his contract for less job security, is mechanically sound enough to shift this team from a losing team to a winning team. The results come after.

WR is a top 3 need for me at this point, but whether they're dropping or catching balls or not, we can still look at Vick's mechanics. Yeah, the pressure got to him, and the Chiefs defense is no joke at this point in the season.

But he was just making bad throws last night and there is no way around it.


What excuses am I making? Everything I've stated was a pretty obvious fact and I've already stated Vick played poorly. It is what it is, he wont play great every week, we knew that coming into the season. Do you think there is a QB on the roster that could currently run this offense better? Put Nick Foles back there and you wont see nearly the same production we've gotten out of McCoy.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BLick12 wrote:
Phire wrote:
BLick12 wrote:
Phire wrote:
I'm not going to say we have the greatest wide-outs, and yeah there were missed catches.

But Vick, mechanically, was depressing last night. Vick played well in the first two weeks... with the SAME receivers he had last night. He wasn't throwing off his back foot or staring guys down against the Redskins (from what I remember). He wasn't getting his throws batted down against the Chargers.

I'm willing to write last night off as a result of
a) the stupidity of having to play a game with three days in-between
b) Reid knowing exactly what Vick's weaknesses are


He also had more time to throw the first 2 weeks. The Eagles got themselves in a hole where they had to throw and it didn't bode well for Lane Johnson or Mike Vick. The chiefs did a good job of collapsing the pocket and getting hands up and at least making Vick uncomfortable in the pocket. The Eagles receivers finally faced some decent corners and showed their true colors.

At the end of the day if our defense gets a 3rd and 15 stop with KC on their own 5 yard line, despite how bad Mike Vick played last night, the Eagles would've been in excellent position to score to tie the game (or take the lead if Chip Kelly didn't go full college-retard on the 2 pt conversion).

All the excuses are cute, but come on now. Vick's mechanics were NOT pretty. You can include all the other things about the receivers showing their true colors (and by my estimation, so did Vick) and I'm not willing to deny the points you're coming up with.

The Celek throw to start the game set the stage for the rest of the game. There were multiple plays where he had time, yet, his throws were off. We even saw a McNabb worm-burner. He was missing throws. Sure, receivers didn't help, but he wasn't helping the receivers either.

I said this in a different thread, but I think this year should be used for mechanical evaluation, not evaluation of wins or losses. Whether we win or lose a game, we should be looking for whether Billy Davis can adjust. Whether we win or lose, we should be looking at whether our starting quarterback, who was forced to restructure his contract for less job security, is mechanically sound enough to shift this team from a losing team to a winning team. The results come after.

WR is a top 3 need for me at this point, but whether they're dropping or catching balls or not, we can still look at Vick's mechanics. Yeah, the pressure got to him, and the Chiefs defense is no joke at this point in the season.

But he was just making bad throws last night and there is no way around it.


What excuses am I making? Everything I've stated was a pretty obvious fact and I've already stated Vick played poorly. It is what it is, he wont play great every week, we knew that coming into the season. Do you think there is a QB on the roster that could currently run this offense better? Put Nick Foles back there and you wont see nearly the same production we've gotten out of McCoy.

The fact of the matter is, I'm not concerned at all about who can do better in his shoes. I'm focusing on Michael Vick and Michael Vick alone. He is our starting quarterback and deserves any and all isolated scrutiny that remains within the bounds of rationality.

I'm not expecting him to play great every week. I'm looking for him to becoming a better quarterback, because we aren't winning anything in the future if Vick is going to revert to his true form again.

Yes, the receivers suck, yes, the line wasn't blocking exceptionally well, and yes, the Chiefs defense is playing very well.

None of that changes the fact that Michael Vick, mechanically, took a step back from week 1 and week 2 and looked a lot like the Michael Vick we FEARED he has always been and might always will be, and not like the Michael Vick we're hoping he can be and need him to be for the future.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hockey5djh wrote:
This is the easiest statement to talk about.

Why I still have faith:

- We're only 3 FREAKIN GAMES into the season with a brand new coach and a brand new scheme on both offense and defense.

- We've seen flashes of greatness despite not having a "QB of the Future" and our DC not having any of "his players".

- We're 20 million under the cap

- Depite being 1-2 we're still second in the division and at the VERY worst after this week we're tied for second and despite being 1-2 we were only a couple plays away from being 3-0.


I think the worst thing that happened to this team was the first half of the Redskins game. People had lower expectations going into the season and after that game people started talking winning records and playoffs.

I've said it before and i'll say it again, the best thing that can happen this season is progress, not numbers. I will be a happy fan if we go 5-11 and are in every game. This season is about allowing the team to learn the system and get through the growing pains of a rookie coach, not winning a superbowl.

Depends what "faith" you're talking about.

Nobody should ever have had "faith" for the current season. I think most of us understand this is an evaluation year. A lot of the guys on the roster this year WILL NOT be here next year.

So in that regard, no, I have no faith in this year from a win-loss standpoint.

But I will maintain my faith in Chip Kelly. I'm still up in the air about how I feel about Michael Vick. My confidence in Billy Davis is slowly eroding.

Early? Sure, but it's not too early for things like adjustments and specific head scratchers such as Billy Davis putting Ced Thornton in coverage against Jamaal Charles.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Eagles have allowed 15th-most passing yards in NFL history through 3 games facing QBs ranked 21st, 22nd & 34th in pass yards/game in 2012.

https://twitter.com/RoobCSN/status/381168336735703040

And all the passes are short, underneath routes and dump-offs Laughing
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Phire


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, very smart Eagles people who reviewed the game-tape from all angles agrees with me that Vick had problems outside the receivers and the pressure.

http://www.phillymag.com/eagles/2013/09/20/game-review-eagles-offense-vs-chiefs-defense/
Quote:
I thought he was outstanding last week against the Chargers, and I thought he was terrible against the Chiefs. Were there offensive line issues? Absolutely. We’ll get to those below. But Vick made bad decisions all game long and was inaccurate with the football when he had opportunities to make plays.

Quote:
Vick twice threw behind Riley Cooper on post patterns to the left side. The first was incomplete, the second intercepted. Those are throws he’s made in the past and ones that have to be completed, especially against a good defense like Kansas City’s.

And so on.
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ninjapirate


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh we are in a transition year, it's ok for us to lose.


Michael Vick played well enough in the preseason and the first two games to keep his job after one rough night.


Loss wasn't all on him.
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Dr. Philly


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ninjapirate wrote:
Eh we are in a transition year, it's ok for us to lose.


Michael Vick played well enough in the preseason and the first two games to keep his job after one rough night.


Loss wasn't all on him.


Pretty much my thoughts as well.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ninjapirate wrote:
Eh we are in a transition year, it's ok for us to lose.


Michael Vick played well enough in the preseason and the first two games to keep his job after one rough night.


Loss wasn't all on him.

Wasn't all on him and nobody is saying that. But Vick returning to his old (read: true) form is a scary thought for the team moving forward.
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