Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Is Musgrave a Must-go?
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Minnesota Vikings
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Zephiel


Joined: 11 Mar 2010
Posts: 2246
Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:39 pm    Post subject: Is Musgrave a Must-go? Reply with quote

So I think that with threads on everything else that's going wrong with this team, I figure we could have a thread discussing the future of Bill Musgrave.

I think that if we are discussing Ponder's future, it is also appropriate to discuss the future of Musgrave. I think that the guy can create plays but he is pretty bad calling them. I think we can all agree that the rollout to the right on 3rd and 1 to John Carlson is probably the most recent example of a Musgrave Stinker.

Let's take a look at his career stats as an offensive coordinator:

Carolina (2000) - 20th in Yards, 21st in points
Jacksonville (2003) - 12th in yards, 25th in points
Jacksonville (2004) - 21st in yards, 29th in points
Minnesota (2011) - 18th in yards, 19th in points
Minnesota (2012) - 20th in yards, 14th in points

Is that really a track record worth keeping around?

The average of those five years is 18th in yards and 21st in points. If he ends the season around those numbers and we're a fringe playoff team, is that grounds for firing? I say yes.

Some would argue that consistency is important, but I think at this point it'll probably be easier to get a new offensive coordinator to fix some stuff than it would be to get a new, competent quarterback.

I wonder if Spielman had a hand in hiring Musgrave. If he didn't I think that he'd choose Ponder over Musgrave without second thought. If he did, though, I don't know.

What do you guys think?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vikingsrule


Moderator
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 47887
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I considered locking this thread, since Musgrave has been sprinkled into the conversation in other threads. Further, there was a question of the day thread regarding how Musgave will adapt. Neither thread really addresses the topic of this conversation. If we want an official "fire or keep" Musgrave thread, we can keep this one active.


To address the question, if the offense doesnt improve this year Musgrave needs to be fired. Three years should be plenty of time for an O.C. to show something.

Musgrave is definitely on the hot seat, a bottom 10-15 offensive finish probably seals his fate. Regardless of team success. If Musgrave can get the offense to the top 10-15 range, he is probably safe. Its truly make or break for Musgrave.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SteelKing728


Joined: 23 Aug 2008
Posts: 14306
Location: Gibsonia, Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we let him go by mid season.

He just isn't what this team needs. Even if Ponder isn't the QB of the future, Bill Musgrave sure isn't giving his QB any help with some horrible playcalling.
_________________

Not your typical Vikings anymore.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
PupNsuds


Joined: 28 Aug 2013
Posts: 31
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't be opposed to the idea.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
vikingsrule


Moderator
Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 47887
Location: Land of 10,000 Lakes!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who are potential and realistic offensive coordinator options?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
rpmwr19


Moderator
Joined: 23 Dec 2006
Posts: 24697
Location: Stillwater, MN
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO if coordinators are getting let go Frazier is done. It's his staff.
_________________
RPMs Viking Roster/Cap Tracker
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PupNsuds


Joined: 28 Aug 2013
Posts: 31
Location: Chicago
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
IMO if coordinators are getting let go Frazier is done. It's his staff.
Bingo. Depending on how bad the record is this year, they could all be gone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Krauser


Joined: 20 Apr 2013
Posts: 1968
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: Is Musgrave a Must-go? Reply with quote

Zephiel wrote:
Minnesota (2012) - 20th in yards, 14th in points


Without bothering to check the numbers, there's no way they were top half in the league in offensive points last year. They had a number of special teams and defensive TDs that brought their total points up compared to most teams. The offense also benefited from a number of short fields (good field position) and short drives (being able to kick long field goals) thanks to excellent special teams play.

24 points yesterday will end up being 14th in the league after week 1, and all of those points were earned the hard way (no short fields, no return scores, no garbage time points, playing on the road).

Meanwhile 34 points allowed will be the 3rd most in the league as long as Houston/SD don't score more than another FG or two each.

And PFF has graded the Vikings special teams in week 1 as worst in the league so far (pending scores for the Monday games).

As I pointed out in a couple of threads yesterday, the offense was actually more productive in Detroit than it usually was in 2012 (only scored 24 points on the road twice in 2012) -- though obviously still not good enough, and with too many turnovers. It's the rest of the team being way worse than last year that led to such an overwhelming defeat.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Freakout


Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 2868
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
IMO if coordinators are getting let go Frazier is done. It's his staff.


I think it would depend on when and how it happens. If it happened mid-season, the decision coming from Leslie, then I could see Leslie being safe. If the order to dump him comes from Spielman, then Leslie is done.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
swiss_vike


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 881
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could write whole articles about Musgrave. I can't imagine a worse offensive coordinator. He has multiple problems:

1) Once you have a starting position locked in, you'll never loose it unless you're hurt. That's really bad. In Musgrave's first season, everybody cried for Harvin to get more touches, he just didn't get them, for whatever reason. Then in the off-season, Harvin had to lobby hard (by calling for a trade) to get more touches...see, if players know better and must resort to such things to establish the things that everybody recognizes, then that's bad. Last year, Harvin had an MVP worthy season until he got hurt. Interestingly, Wright was in the dog house last year up until Harvin got hurt. He only changes his favorite line-ups because he is forced to. He doesn't adapt during the season nor during a game. This does not bode well for Patterson this season. Very likely a game changer, he'll continue to get 5/10 snaps and probably 1-2 targets a game. You have to put rookies through mistakes also.

2) He is not prepared for games. Rarely do you see a game plan that makes sense for the opponents. It's always pounding it with Peterson and a couple of passes left and right. Of course, running it is our identity. But running int 12 times inside and 5 times outside against the best DT couple in the league in the Lions just shows you that he's got no plan.

3) Predictable 2 runs, one pass which will be too short for a 3rd down. That's 50% of our offense right there. I'd like to see once in a while a designed play that goes beyond the first down marker on 3rd and long. Now, I've nothing against running the ball early and often. We have Peterson, and it's good he at least recognizes that.

4) Can't adapt in-game I was surprised in last years play-off game against the Packers. We had to play Webb and we come out running with Webb and Peterson. Wow. Did he learn? On first possession, we march down the field for 50 yards (I guess) and get a field goal. Everybody on GB's side were scared (just look at their faces), everybody at home knew that GB can't defend the run. Yet, after the first initial drive, he falls back to his signature stuff and wants to make Webb being Ponder. Fully stops the running with Webb. Why? There was no need, as it worked. Stupid. I'm sure he's thought process was as follows: "Wow, that first drive went pretty well. And we were so lucky the Webb didn't get hurt. Better not push it too far and risk injury. Let's play it safe" If you don't play all-out on a playoff game, you have no business being a coordinator in this game.

5) Play calling Signature play calling of Musgrave: 3rd and 5. 3 WR 1 TE, Peterson in the back field. WR's are not spread out, TE next to RT Ball on opponents 12. Defense all in the box because of the formation. Play starts and 2 seconds later, 2WR and 1TE are 1-4 yards deep, all inside the numbers. Man, that's crowded right there. 3 Vikes vs 7 Defenders in the box. What QB wants to throw in there? Our remaining WR? Run a flat at the line of scrimmage! Are you kidding me? You're that close to the end zone, you want to score and you don't attack the end-zone with one single player? I mean, not even 1? And that's how he calls plays.

6) Play not to loose Plays always the save play, but still manages to call stupid and risky plays (like rolling out Ponder to the left, or short slants to a crowded box). All of the above are probably the result of this: he has not guts.

7) Where are our TE I mean, he is famous for is TE sets. Yeah, like we saw anything resembling that. When he says he likes 2 TE sets, it means he likes having 2 additional blockers.
_________________
Ponder is not done in Minnesota...yet. I think now, he might be. Will miss you, Samantha Hottie.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boda


Joined: 21 Sep 2012
Posts: 786
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Is Musgrave a Must-go? Reply with quote

Zephiel wrote:
So I think that with threads on everything else that's going wrong with this team, I figure we could have a thread discussing the future of Bill Musgrave.

I think that if we are discussing Ponder's future, it is also appropriate to discuss the future of Musgrave. I think that the guy can create plays but he is pretty bad calling them. I think we can all agree that the rollout to the right on 3rd and 1 to John Carlson is probably the most recent example of a Musgrave Stinker.

Let's take a look at his career stats as an offensive coordinator:

Carolina (2000) - 20th in Yards, 21st in points
Jacksonville (2003) - 12th in yards, 25th in points
Jacksonville (2004) - 21st in yards, 29th in points
Minnesota (2011) - 18th in yards, 19th in points
Minnesota (2012) - 20th in yards, 14th in points

Is that really a track record worth keeping around?

The average of those five years is 18th in yards and 21st in points. If he ends the season around those numbers and we're a fringe playoff team, is that grounds for firing? I say yes.

Some would argue that consistency is important, but I think at this point it'll probably be easier to get a new offensive coordinator to fix some stuff than it would be to get a new, competent quarterback.

I wonder if Spielman had a hand in hiring Musgrave. If he didn't I think that he'd choose Ponder over Musgrave without second thought. If he did, though, I don't know.

What do you guys think?

You forgot his time in Atlanta
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JDBrocks


Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 5219
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Is Musgrave a Must-go? Reply with quote

Boda wrote:
You forgot his time in Atlanta


He was never a coordinator in ATL.
_________________


Josh Ritter wrote:
I became a thin blue wire, that held the world above the fire
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
skywindO2


Joined: 06 Jul 2006
Posts: 14150
Location: Minneapolis, MN
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He was never a coordinator in Atlanta though, just the QB coach.
_________________

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つZIMMER༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
PrplChilPill


Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 9065
Location: SLP, MN
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope he's gone, it is not 1971 anymore.....and this offense looks like what I recall from my formative years.
_________________
Wins are a team stat, not a QB stat
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CriminalMind


Joined: 25 Aug 2011
Posts: 4847
Location: Toronto, CA
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it comes from Leslie speaking to Rick about it mid-season, then Leslie is likely still safe.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Minnesota Vikings All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Page 1 of 9

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group