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What gives with the refs?
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Louis Friend


Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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Location: Detroit, MI
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uag-ClYRMs

Mike Peirera (sp?) is getting bombarded on twitter about this. Trying to say Cruz had the catch prior to endzone and Calvin did not. Video says otherwise.
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DrRay11


Joined: 19 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rockcity wrote:
WillieYoungSon wrote:
I think we should all band together and light up one of the NFL shows (NFL Total Access, NFL AM, or NFL Live) with emails or tweets to get this media attention. We are constantly the victims in these situations and it needs to get some media time.

Another coach last year, don't remember who but I read an article on it, made the same mistake as Schwartz last year and only we were penalized. You go from that to the famous Calvin Johnson rule and things start looking a little out of hand.

What really brings me to a fever pitch though, is great coaches do not let this happen. The Harbaughs, Belicheiks, Peytons, all would bring attention to these problems and connect the dots from the inconsistent calls on these obscure rules. Schwartz hasn't done anything and won't do anything. I know it goes against sportsmanship to get after the refs on the field, but they are human and can be influenced and it shows. The great ones do it early and often, and Schwartz needs to do the same.

What do you guys think?
schwartz should have went off imo but all the other bs he has done made it look like he was scared to or he just gave up.. we seem like the poster boys for rule changes. We ain't the darling of the nfl until then nothings gonna change and suh ain't help with that change.


Schwartz did what he should have and stayed cool. Last thing we need is that hot-head going crazy any more than he has.

Phreak is right, I was hoping yesterday through the madness that caused me to be incredulous that the team would not start complaining and just remain resilient. They did that, and it speaks volumes to me. Delmas almost lost it once, but that's really it.

The staff and players should just remain quiet through this stuff that's out of their control and be resilient.

Regarding fans and media, by all means, blow it up.
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DrRay11


Joined: 19 Dec 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louis Friend wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uag-ClYRMs

Mike Peirera (sp?) is getting bombarded on twitter about this. Trying to say Cruz had the catch prior to endzone and Calvin did not. Video says otherwise.


I understand it is the rule, but even if true, that should not matter at all.
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Louis Friend


Joined: 07 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrRay11 wrote:
Louis Friend wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uag-ClYRMs

Mike Peirera (sp?) is getting bombarded on twitter about this. Trying to say Cruz had the catch prior to endzone and Calvin did not. Video says otherwise.


I understand it is the rule, but even if true, that should not matter at all.


If it is the rule, it should apply to everyone and not just Calvin. Someone mentioned on youtube that the NFL probably has an unwritten rule that Calvin has to do 3 laps around the endzone without bobbling before they'll award him a TD. Laughing Very Happy Sad Crying or Very sad
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detroitroar


Joined: 24 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy crap.

I had actually agreed with the call on CJ, but Cruz actually got a TD out of that?

Absurd.
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X_Factor_40


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louis Friend wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uag-ClYRMs

Mike Peirera (sp?) is getting bombarded on twitter about this. Trying to say Cruz had the catch prior to endzone and Calvin did not. Video says otherwise.


Wooooooooooooooowwwwwww. I have no words....
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The moment Calvin held the ball forward, he displayed "control" (via the second act) and had possession. It was a TD. The explanation is simple: the NFL lacks understanding and consistency.
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Louis Friend


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They said he didn't make a second football move, but he initially brought the ball ot his body and then out. Then they said he didn't have two feet down. When actually he did, it was Cruz who didn't have two feet down. Then they said There was no contact like Cruz, but Harrison Smith is right there. Wondering what they are going to say next. Rolling Eyes
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Laimbrane


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hate to say it, but I can see the difference between CJ's and Cruz's catches.

Cruz gets the ball, brings it in to his chest, has two feet down, moves the ball to one hand where it's cradled, then changes direction, reaches down with one hand and out with the other. According to the rules (we'll get to that in a minute), he has possession when he tucks that ball with one hand - that's completing the process.

CJ, on the other hand, grabs the ball with his hands on the sides, and the ball bounces out before he can bring it in. You have to get both feet down and establish control of the ball, which he never really did. It's close, no doubt, but Cruz definitively has more control over that ball than Calvin.

That being said, the rule needs to change. It's stupid, doesn't pass the 50 drunks in the bar test. Aside from the semantics of the rule, CJ's was a catch, and the rule should reflect that reality, rather than changing reality to fit the rule. But that's a different argument.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laimbrane wrote:
I hate to say it, but I can see the difference between CJ's and Cruz's catches.

Cruz gets the ball, brings it in to his chest, has two feet down, moves the ball to one hand where it's cradled, then changes direction, reaches down with one hand and out with the other. According to the rules (we'll get to that in a minute), he has possession when he tucks that ball with one hand - that's completing the process.

CJ, on the other hand, grabs the ball with his hands on the sides, and the ball bounces out before he can bring it in. You have to get both feet down and establish control of the ball, which he never really did. It's close, no doubt, but Cruz definitively has more control over that ball than Calvin.

That being said, the rule needs to change. It's stupid, doesn't pass the 50 drunks in the bar test. Aside from the semantics of the rule, CJ's was a catch, and the rule should reflect that reality, rather than changing reality to fit the rule. But that's a different argument.

Laim... I have to completely disagree with your interpretation of Calvin's catch. Calvin catches the ball, has full control, gets both feet down, then extends the ball over the goal line. He had 1) both feet down, and 2) committed a second act. He established possession.

Here's the bottom line between both plays, though: Cruz is falling to the ground while making a catch, and does NOT maintain control of the ball after hitting the ground. That much is indisputable. To rule Cruz's catch a TD, you must believe that second act exemption exists. Cruz made a second act, as did Calvin.
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DrRay11


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Laimbrane wrote:
I hate to say it, but I can see the difference between CJ's and Cruz's catches.

Cruz gets the ball, brings it in to his chest, has two feet down, moves the ball to one hand where it's cradled, then changes direction, reaches down with one hand and out with the other. According to the rules (we'll get to that in a minute), he has possession when he tucks that ball with one hand - that's completing the process.

CJ, on the other hand, grabs the ball with his hands on the sides, and the ball bounces out before he can bring it in. You have to get both feet down and establish control of the ball, which he never really did. It's close, no doubt, but Cruz definitively has more control over that ball than Calvin.

That being said, the rule needs to change. It's stupid, doesn't pass the 50 drunks in the bar test. Aside from the semantics of the rule, CJ's was a catch, and the rule should reflect that reality, rather than changing reality to fit the rule. But that's a different argument.

Laim... I have to completely disagree with your interpretation of Calvin's catch. Calvin catches the ball, has full control, gets both feet down, then extends the ball over the goal line. He had 1) both feet down, and 2) committed a second act. He established possession.

Here's the bottom line between both plays, though: Cruz is falling to the ground while making a catch, and does NOT maintain control of the ball after hitting the ground. That much is indisputable. To rule Cruz's catch a TD, you must believe that second act exemption exists. Cruz made a second act, as did Calvin.


Laimbrane is inferring you have to tuck it or bring it to your chest, I think.
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TL-TwoWinsAway


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DrRay11 wrote:
TL-TwoWinsAway wrote:
Laimbrane wrote:
I hate to say it, but I can see the difference between CJ's and Cruz's catches.

Cruz gets the ball, brings it in to his chest, has two feet down, moves the ball to one hand where it's cradled, then changes direction, reaches down with one hand and out with the other. According to the rules (we'll get to that in a minute), he has possession when he tucks that ball with one hand - that's completing the process.

CJ, on the other hand, grabs the ball with his hands on the sides, and the ball bounces out before he can bring it in. You have to get both feet down and establish control of the ball, which he never really did. It's close, no doubt, but Cruz definitively has more control over that ball than Calvin.

That being said, the rule needs to change. It's stupid, doesn't pass the 50 drunks in the bar test. Aside from the semantics of the rule, CJ's was a catch, and the rule should reflect that reality, rather than changing reality to fit the rule. But that's a different argument.

Laim... I have to completely disagree with your interpretation of Calvin's catch. Calvin catches the ball, has full control, gets both feet down, then extends the ball over the goal line. He had 1) both feet down, and 2) committed a second act. He established possession.

Here's the bottom line between both plays, though: Cruz is falling to the ground while making a catch, and does NOT maintain control of the ball after hitting the ground. That much is indisputable. To rule Cruz's catch a TD, you must believe that second act exemption exists. Cruz made a second act, as did Calvin.


Laimbrane is inferring you have to tuck it or bring it to your chest, I think.

I see. Well, tucking the ball into your chest is not the only way to display a second act.
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amaru0


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laimbrane wrote:
I hate to say it, but I can see the difference between CJ's and Cruz's catches.

Cruz gets the ball, brings it in to his chest, has two feet down, moves the ball to one hand where it's cradled, then changes direction, reaches down with one hand and out with the other. According to the rules (we'll get to that in a minute), he has possession when he tucks that ball with one hand - that's completing the process.

CJ, on the other hand, grabs the ball with his hands on the sides, and the ball bounces out before he can bring it in. You have to get both feet down and establish control of the ball, which he never really did. It's close, no doubt, but Cruz definitively has more control over that ball than Calvin.

That being said, the rule needs to change. It's stupid, doesn't pass the 50 drunks in the bar test. Aside from the semantics of the rule, CJ's was a catch, and the rule should reflect that reality, rather than changing reality to fit the rule. But that's a different argument.


Rewatch that Laim, CJ pulls the ball in then dives and extends it. As a bonus, read Stafford's reaction to the whole thing.

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2013/09/matthew_stafford_surpsised_to.html
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Laimbrane


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amaru0 wrote:

Rewatch that Laim, CJ pulls the ball in then dives and extends it. As a bonus, read Stafford's reaction to the whole thing.

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf/2013/09/matthew_stafford_surpsised_to.html


Amaru0! OMG!

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Laimbrane


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not going to bother with the whole argument anymore, because I keep arguing with myself on both sides. Either way, the rule is stupid - it was clearly a catch even if it wasn't defined as such. If the rule doesn't fit the concept that everyone has of what should be a catch, then you need to change the rule to fit that.

I mean, they don't have a rule that says "a caught ball is where a player has possession of the ball behind his head. If a receiver fails to bring the ball behind his head while in possession, he is judged to not have full possession and not to have completed the process." Obviously that's an exaggeration, but the concept is the same - you need to make a rule that fits the world's shared concept of a catch. In other words, if that rule didn't exist, there's no coach that would be screaming at the ref that CJ dropped that ball when he hit the ground. These dinky little rules should exist to eliminate ambiguities, not create ridiculous controversy.
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