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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote:
markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote: "Well if Pat can't be traded, he'll be cut before the Philly game IMO. I agree with Thai, absolutely Zero chance Kirk is moved until march of 2014, or later."

I suppose anything is possible, but after breaking down White's performance v Tampa I just can't see any other team offering something for him. Especially when they all know what you do, which is that the Redskins aren't going to carry 4 QBs for very long. Frankly, treating him in the manner that you suggest would be that of a 2nd rate organization & for what, a selection at the bottom of the draft? It's cheesy & unfair to the player. You cut him so he has a chance to catch on with another team & if you want to use him to mimic Vick or someone else


Except that a team like Philadelphia would sign him for a week leading up to the game only to dump him after a week. They'd just do it to pump his brain for the Redskins playbook and maybe use him for their scout team.

That's life at the bottom of the barrel in the NFL. To be fair to the Redskins, White got a significant chance to demonstrate his abilities, something that no other team offered him in the last three years. If they want to hold him as an insurance policy/prevention of a pump & dump, why not?

Quote:
I think Tampa might be a team that shows interest in Cousins. I viewed the replay of the Tampa game on the NFL Network, which featured a broadcast team that was oriented to Tampa's audience. While Ronde Barber said he believed Josh Freeman would play well and be their long-term QB, there seems to be indications that confidence in him is waning. I don't know, maybe it was the way Freeman just kept staring back up at the camera, as if to acknowledge he knew that his days are numbered. Their 3rd rd draft pick Mike Glennon, completely sucked. I do think Freeman has to fail for the team to make a move before the trade deadline. Jacksonville, Oakland & Arizona are all potential suitors. Now, I don't think it's generally perceived that September is the ideal time to make such a trade but if one of these teams concludes they simply don't have a QB, why wait until the season is over? I think as this progresses, it'll be a matter of whether Cousins stock rises to match the Redskins demand.


Again, I doubt Cousins is traded this year. Not because of his value, which should be decent. It's because if a team really needs a QB, this coming draft class looks wonderful. You won't see a team giving a 2014 2nd and a 2015 conditional for Cousins because this won't be a poor year like this past draft.
Weren't we saying that this time last year?

Early in the 2012 football season everyone was drooling over:

Matt Barkley
Geno Smith
Tyler Wilson
Landry Jones
Logan Thomas
Aaron Murray
Taj Boyd

Etc, etc
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Have they had a press conference since they announced the roster? I don't recall hearing about one. Did I miss it?
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Woz


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
Weren't we saying that this time last year?

Early in the 2012 football season everyone was drooling over:

Matt Barkley
Geno Smith
Tyler Wilson
Landry Jones
Logan Thomas
Aaron Murray
Taj Boyd

Etc, etc


Except that Murray, Boyd, and Thomas all stayed for their senior season, so that cut the pool in half. They're coming out this year, like it or not. If Teddy Bridgewater has anything approaching a season like he did last year, he's coming out as there is nowhere to go but down. Manziel is almost assuredly coming out as the rules in college really chafe at him (my Aggie co-worker said he saw this phrase on Aggie boards associated with Manziel: "Ryan Leaf" ... I was taken aback at first, but that's looking like a pretty apt comparison at the moment).
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rizzy wrote: "I think they should hold onto him for the fact that if something doesn't materialize they can choose where he goes and not let him sign with someone in the division. Which is just as valuable as a 6th round pick that we could use to choose the next Alfred Morris, so no I don't think an extra pick is worthless. Need to do what's best for the team."

Woz wrote: "Except that a team like Philadelphia would sign him for a week leading up to the game only to dump him after a week. They'd just do it to pump his brain for the Redskins playbook and maybe use him for their scout team. ... To be fair to the Redskins, White got a significant chance to demonstrate his abilities, something that no other team offered him in the last three years. If they want to hold him as an insurance policy/prevention of a pump & dump, why not?"

The quote that rizzy cited is contextually void of the reality. Yes, I'm aware it was my comment. It's as if something was actually offered for Pat White & the team rejected it. No, there's nothing other than misguided hope for compensation when everyone knows or should know White is going to be released in short order anyhow. He struggled with & against many other 3rd & 4th stringers. He isn't ready to contribute to the Redskins, let alone any other team. Getting him now or a month from now, makes little difference! His play & the circumstance affords the team no leverage whatsoever. Finally, is there any evidence at all that the team is shopping the guy?

I know we hear this stuff about teams attaining a player from a division rival or another opponent to gain some strategic advantage, but I've never heard the one where a guy makes a roster to prevent him from helping the opposition. Thing is, if this sort of behavior really provided teams with an advantage wouldn't we see a lot of this, especially at this time of year? Vince Young's circumstance is similar to that of Pat White, shouldn't he be of interest to the 49ers? Reportedly, during the offseason the Packers took their ability to defend the read/option very seriously, wouldn't a defensive player they've released be of interest? No uh? Truly, I'm shocked.

Woz wrote: "Again, I doubt Cousins is traded this year. Not because of his value, which should be decent. It's because if a team really needs a QB, this coming draft class looks wonderful. You won't see a team giving a 2014 2nd and a 2015 conditional..."

Agreed, the elite QBs in the 2014 draft would likely be better values, so any team fearing that they might only win a couple of games isn't likely to trade their 1st rd pick for Cousins. But once you're beyond those 1st several selections, I think Cousins becomes as good a choice as any other! He's certainly more proven than any of them at this point & whoever trades for him get him now. He's already under contract at a very favorable figure. I think he's a solid option. Again, I think it's going to take a team that has determined they don't have a QB who's going to win. That might not happen, or they may not view Cousins as the answer or the Redskins price might be too high. I'm not saying a trade is going to happen, but it's what I think they're trying to do. Now, of course Mike Shanahan isn't going get in front of the mic & spill the whole thing. Oh, we've had some injury at the QB position, that's why Pat White is here. Just because he says it, that doesn't make it true. For me, these other explanations are not as convincing as Allen/Shanahan sensing that a team is going to come to them with interest in Kirk Cousins.

Woz, I'll to try address your other points later...
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote: "Here's the odd thing though: he cleared waivers. No one signed him. Even though half (or nearly that number) of teams run a 3-4, no one made a move for him. I'm not saying that he isn't worthy of being on a roster, but no one thought him worthy of a roster spot at this juncture."

I see, so you're going to resort to facts, is that it? Very Happy I'll concede the point, but my perception here is not unlike that of which pertains to Jarvis Jenkins, Randall's power is neutralized by the fact that he doesn't have an NFL 1st step. Difference being, Jenkins purportedly does possess an excellent burst but doesn't utilize it. Thus, Randall's not going to overwhelm any starting OG in this league, every one of them is able to set and get into him. So his versatility is likely a liability as well. Again, in the handful of Longhorn games I reviewed, he was much more active when he was over the nose. You can skip the following as it simply corroborates what I've already posted. What I made sure of was that they were separate sources, meaning I've cited three different beat writers who cover the Dolphins and all are saying the same thing. Randall's a good player, they expect him to find work elsewhere and/or the main reason he was released isn't because he sucks, Miami happens to be deep at DT.
Quote:
"I was shocked that both Kheeston Randall and A.J. Francis were released. Both played well in camp, and the exhibition season. I wouldn't be surprised if Randall and Francis were claimed on the waiver wire by another team." http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-08-31/sports/sfl-breaking-down-the-dolphins-53man-roster-2013-20130831_1_kheeston-randall-brian-tyms-austin-spitler

"Guys let go, but showing promise, include DE Tristan Okpalaugo (three sacks) and DT Kheeston Randall (seven tackles)." http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2013/09/01/miami-dolphins-talking-points-sizing-up-the-53-man-roster-envisioning-dream-race-of-mark-duper-vs-mike-wallace/#sthash.Y375Vdy4.dpuf

Woz wrote: "I hate to be callous about it, but the Redskins owe Kirk Cousins nothing other than what his contract stipulates, the chance to be the #1 clipboard holder and the opportunity to play if something should happen to Griffin. If the Redskins don't get an offer they like for Cousins, he goes nowhere. As I said before, I don't think they'll get an offer they'll like this year because of what this draft class holds."

The latter point is certainly plausible & I agree that the Redskins asking price won't be cheap, nor should it be. But the part about Cousins being a good little soldier & liking it will only hold for so long. Absolutely, he's a consummate professional, he will march & I expect any discourse to remain in-house. But consider his aspirations and that up to this point, no one has come knocking. Or, if a team has made an offer, it's been flatly rejected as inadequate. When interest is strong & compensation fair, it's not unusual that a team can find they have a different player on their hands. I'm not going to go there because I don't believe it's going to come to that. I've believed from the beginning that they drafted him with the intention of trading him. Remember, the team has no 1st rd selection... I hope to comment on your final point regarding Pat White later today.
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Woz


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
But the part about Cousins being a good little soldier & liking it will only hold for so long. Absolutely, he's a consummate professional, he will march & I expect any discourse to remain in-house. But consider his aspirations and that up to this point, no one has come knocking. Or, if a team has made an offer, it's been flatly rejected as inadequate. When interest is strong & compensation fair, it's not unusual that a team can find they have a different player on their hands. I'm not going to go there because I don't believe it's going to come to that. I've believed from the beginning that they drafted him with the intention of trading him. Remember, the team has no 1st rd selection... I hope to comment on your final point regarding Pat White later today.


Oh, I think the Redskins viewed Cousins as a steal in the 4th and definitely figured in his possible future returns by drafting him.

However, Cousins has no real choice but be a good soldier. If he acts up or grumbles publicly, his trade value plummets. He's essentially in a no win situation. All he can do is just smile and wait.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote: "At the same time, they're also saying: "Hey, this kid still has something here and we're holding him because we think he has value in this league. Come talk to us." They've allowed him to demonstrate his abilities to a league that is now looking at fast, mobile QBs in a new light. Is that a classless act? Not in my mind. By doing the surprising and uncommon thing of keeping four QBs, they may have actually heightened his worth."

No, he's not on the roster because he has trade value. I find that you guys want it both ways, they [the Redskins] believe he's essentially useless to them, a read/option team, but would be to some other. A 6th rd pick is real value and worthy of shopping this guy for, but it's nothing for another team to throw at the Redskins to secure his rights, when they could simply wait a month & get him anyway. Fact is, all this conjecture is stuff you guys have found on the internet and afford weight because it was posted on otherwise established websites. The coaching staff got a real good look at him in the final preseason game & they obviously believe they can develop him. The part about Cousins having no choice but to play his absolute best isn't true either. Guys that want their own ship don't make for very good subordinates, especially when the opportunity to become the captain emerges somewhere else! He couldn't care less about his trade value, that's relevant only to the Redskins. He's in a position to plant stories in the papers & then when asked to go on record, simply say all the right things that amount to a denial while every interested party is reading between the lines. Vince Young has been afforded additional chances, you don't think Cousins would get even one? That's absurd. Go too far & he might not call that audible he otherwise should've or stand in there & take a hard hit to make a completion. Do you think a bag of broken bones is worth something? ... No. If he's going to get a real chance he has to stay in one piece. You need to understand that once the market becomes convinced of his ability, his health becomes priority #1. The team has two starting QBs & no 1st rd draft pick (again). Tink about dat!
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MKnight82


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
Woz wrote: "At the same time, they're also saying: "Hey, this kid still has something here and we're holding him because we think he has value in this league. Come talk to us." They've allowed him to demonstrate his abilities to a league that is now looking at fast, mobile QBs in a new light. Is that a classless act? Not in my mind. By doing the surprising and uncommon thing of keeping four QBs, they may have actually heightened his worth."

No, he's not on the roster because he has trade value. I find that you guys want it both ways, they [the Redskins] believe he's essentially useless to them, a read/option team, but would be to some other. A 6th rd pick is real value and worthy of shopping this guy for, but it's nothing for another team to throw at the Redskins to secure his rights, when they could simply wait a month & get him anyway. Fact is, all this conjecture is stuff you guys have found on the internet and afford weight because it was posted on otherwise established websites. The coaching staff got a real good look at him in the final preseason game & they obviously believe they can develop him. The part about Cousins having no choice but to play his absolute best isn't true either. Guys that want their own ship don't make for very good subordinates, especially when the opportunity to become the captain emerges somewhere else! He couldn't care less about his trade value, that's relevant only to the Redskins. He's in a position to plant stories in the papers & then when asked to go on record, simply say all the right things that amount to a denial while every interested party is reading between the lines. Vince Young has been afforded additional chances, you don't think Cousins would get even one? That's absurd. Go too far & he might not call that audible he otherwise should've or stand in there & take a hard hit to make a completion. Do you think a bag of broken bones is worth something? ... No. If he's going to get a real chance he has to stay in one piece. You need to understand that once the market becomes convinced of his ability, his health becomes priority #1. The team has two starting QBs & no 1st rd draft pick (again). Tink about dat!
So you say that Pat White's supposed trade value has been invented here on the Internet, yet you create your own completely hypothetical condition where Kirk Cousins is going to start complaining about being a backup. Alrighty.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MKnight82 wrote: "So you say that Pat White's supposed trade value has been invented here on the Internet, yet you create your own completely hypothetical condition where Kirk Cousins is going to start complaining about being a backup. Alrighty."

Of course, for the reader it would've been far more constructive to provide what evidence, whatever shred there may be, that the team is actually trying to move Pat White or that some other team is interested in him. If there's something beyond speculation, there's a number of us who would be interested in seeing it. I believe that White is on the team because he made the team, because they believe they can develop him. But I'm the nut here? Yeah, okay pal. Look, last night I watched a player intercept Joe Flacco who decided to celebrate before he even crossed the goal line. Unbelievably, his celebration didn't include carrying the ball across the goal either. Point being, in "professional football" nothing is beyond the realm of possibility. No team should be offering anything for Pat White, but dumber things have occurred. Washington doesn't need a 6th rd pick, they need a 1st or high 2nd rd pick. With respect to Cousins, you missed the part where I said none of that was going to occur because I don't believe the team is going to overplay their hand. Further, you seem to infer that a disgruntled player is just hokie nonsense that's never occurred. Go tell the likes of Vincent Jackson that, he'll set you straight!
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Woz


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
Woz wrote: "At the same time, they're also saying: "Hey, this kid still has something here and we're holding him because we think he has value in this league. Come talk to us." They've allowed him to demonstrate his abilities to a league that is now looking at fast, mobile QBs in a new light. Is that a classless act? Not in my mind. By doing the surprising and uncommon thing of keeping four QBs, they may have actually heightened his worth."

No, he's not on the roster because he has trade value. I find that you guys want it both ways, they [the Redskins] believe he's essentially useless to them, a read/option team, but would be to some other. A 6th rd pick is real value and worthy of shopping this guy for, but it's nothing for another team to throw at the Redskins to secure his rights, when they could simply wait a month & get him anyway.


I was responding to your allegation that the team was treating him poorly because they were just holding him. If he had been released during last cuts, he would be in the wash with all of the other nearly 1200 guys who just lost their jobs.

Maybe they get nothing for him. So be it. Personally, I'd rather they hadn't kept him at all and had instead kept Pashos.

Quote:
Fact is, all this conjecture is stuff you guys have found on the internet and afford weight because it was posted on otherwise established websites. The coaching staff got a real good look at him in the final preseason game & they obviously believe they can develop him.


I would be curious how much developing happens for a fourth string QB once the regular season kicks.

Quote:
The part about Cousins having no choice but to play his absolute best isn't true either. Guys that want their own ship don't make for very good subordinates, especially when the opportunity to become the captain emerges somewhere else!


Except the problem is that unless someone offers some serious draft pick, his own ship isn't on the horizon for two years.

Quote:
He couldn't care less about his trade value, that's relevant only to the Redskins.


And since they hold his rights, I would assume he cares about his value since that is the only way he's getting to his own team faster than his free agent year.

Quote:
He's in a position to plant stories in the papers & then when asked to go on record, simply say all the right things that amount to a denial while every interested party is reading between the lines.


And that won't come back to haunt him or anything ...

Quote:
Vince Young has been afforded additional chances, you don't think Cousins would get even one? That's absurd.


Oh, I totally think he deserves a shot at a team. I think he'd be a pretty good QB.

Quote:
Go too far & he might not call that audible he otherwise should've or stand in there & take a hard hit to make a completion.


True ... but that also makes his tape look worse.

Quote:
Do you think a bag of broken bones is worth something? ... No. If he's going to get a real chance he has to stay in one piece.


This is true ...

Quote:
You need to understand that once the market becomes convinced of his ability, his health becomes priority #1.


... but I would question whether the market has been convinced of his ability to be worth a 1st round pick (or an early second). As such, he may have to take the risks of standing in there to get the completion. Until that time, doing things to poison the well either in the press or on the field is most likely detrimental to his hopes of getting a new team.

Quote:
The team has two starting QBs & no 1st rd draft pick (again). Tink about dat!


If a team floated a first round pick for Cousins, they'd be say "Son, we're here to help you pack." I just don't see that pick appearing.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woz wrote: "I was responding to your allegation that the team was treating him poorly because they were just holding him. If he had been released during last cuts, he would be in the wash with all of the other nearly 1200 guys who just lost their jobs. Maybe they get nothing for him. So be it. Personally, I'd rather they hadn't kept him at all and had instead kept Pashos. I would be curious how much developing happens for a fourth string QB once the regular season kicks."

We largely agree & there's no counter to your point that if the market were convinced of Cousins ability & a team had offered the Redskins a high pick, he'd already be gone. This is where the situation is at right now, although I believe there'd be a lot more hype had Cousins had those remaining preseason games to showcase his game. He may need a big performance in the regular season to clearly prove he's a legitimate NFL starting QB. Would you not agree that if for whatever reason Cousins had to start the Packer game & regardless of the outcome, he was impressive, the Redskins would get a phone call or two? I believe he's that close & I believe that showcasing him was their priority during the preseason, but it didn't work out as well as they had hoped. I think they should be able to work a deal with a team like Jacksonville long before the bye week. Didn't they host Kansas City yesterday & lose 28-2? They do not have a QB better than Kirk Cousins & if the Redskins would be accommodating to their situation, they could get this done. Meaning, Jacksonville doesn't want to end up sacrificing a top selection for Cousins. The Redskins could send them Cousins now & allow them to keep their 1st rd selection up until draft day! That would allow them to trade down to the bottom of the 1st rd and recoup additional draft picks. Then, they'd complete the deal with the Redskins. To me, that seems like a real good deal for both teams.

Just to clarify, I didn't say the team was mistreating Pat White. But rather, that they'd knowingly be holding him down when they know that no team is going to bother giving them compensation when White is going to be available in a month. There's no reason to do that to him or to any other player. Again, my position is that he made the team, they believe they can develop him into Griffin's capable backup. I agree, I'd be shocked to see him suited up tonight while Grossman is sitting & watching. But that said, this is an unusual circumstance. Usually the 3rd QB is a guy the team is developing, but on this team, that guy is a seasoned veteran. So, in this situation I do think that Pat White will be afforded those resources that would otherwise go to the 3rd QB. With one exception, he won't be suited up. Your point about RT is spot on! No way is carrying Pat White (at least not for the reasons put forth) a better use of roster space than looking to upgrade RT. There you have it. Even if the counter was that the team is confident that Pashos isn't the answer, that doesn't detract from the fact that they need to get better at that position! I also want to state that I don't believe Cousins will become disgruntled as his objective & that of the team are not in conflict.
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21 ALL THE WAY


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice wrap up by Rambo
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