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Former Seahawks 4th overall pick LB Aaron Curry retires
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THEFOOTBALLXPRT wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
THEFOOTBALLXPRT wrote:
You guys are still completely missing what my point was.

And 2 1st rounders doesn't make an OL... should we even get started about my reaction to Carpenter too? Lol.. although many of us didn't like that pick. I was basically on an island with Curry.
No one was pro-Carpenter on the pick. At best, people supported the position. I still think if he's healthy he'll be a very good LG.

We used a 1st on Okung and Carpenter, a 3rd on Moffitt, and Unger was a lock at C (and a 2nd at that). On top of that, we've constantly been signing guys and having them rotate through.

I don't see how anyone could claim we haven't at least attempted to address OL.


Unger was here before this regime, so I can't really count him in this conversation.

We have drafted more WR than OL. That should be enough for you to worry about. The Rick Neuheisel approach doesn't work.
How can you not factor in Unger? He completely eliminates the need for a C. You have to factor him in.

We needed to fill 4 OL spots when the new regime got here.

We've drafted and/or signed:

2010
-Russell Okung
-Paul McQuistan
-Robert Gallery
-Breno Giacomini

2011
-James Carpenter
-John Moffitt
-Rishaw Johnson

2012
-JR Sweezy
-Frank Omiyale
-Duece Luitui

2013
-Ryan Seymour
-Jared Smith
-Michael Bowie
-UDFA Alvin Bailey

Along with other short-lived guys. All the bolded were guys brought in either with the intention of starting or who have started.

Again, I thin we've been purposeful about addressing the position. We just don't hit as often as we do at DB, LB, or even DL.
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sirensong


Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 1152
Location: Vancouver BC
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
THEFOOTBALLXPRT wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
THEFOOTBALLXPRT wrote:
You guys are still completely missing what my point was.

And 2 1st rounders doesn't make an OL... should we even get started about my reaction to Carpenter too? Lol.. although many of us didn't like that pick. I was basically on an island with Curry.
No one was pro-Carpenter on the pick. At best, people supported the position. I still think if he's healthy he'll be a very good LG.

We used a 1st on Okung and Carpenter, a 3rd on Moffitt, and Unger was a lock at C (and a 2nd at that). On top of that, we've constantly been signing guys and having them rotate through.

I don't see how anyone could claim we haven't at least attempted to address OL.


Unger was here before this regime, so I can't really count him in this conversation.

We have drafted more WR than OL. That should be enough for you to worry about. The Rick Neuheisel approach doesn't work.
How can you not factor in Unger? He completely eliminates the need for a C. You have to factor him in.

We needed to fill 4 OL spots when the new regime got here.

We've drafted and/or signed:

2010
-Russell Okung
-Paul McQuistan
-Robert Gallery
-Breno Giacomini

2011
-James Carpenter
-John Moffitt
-Rishaw Johnson

2012
-JR Sweezy
-Frank Omiyale
-Duece Luitui

2013
-Ryan Seymour
-Jared Smith
-Michael Bowie
-UDFA Alvin Bailey

Along with other short-lived guys. All the bolded were guys brought in either with the intention of starting or who have started.

Again, I thin we've been purposeful about addressing the position. We just don't hit as often as we do at DB, LB, or even DL.


And not hitting is a problem, you cant excuse it because they have tried. The fact remains they have failed to get quality NFL starters at 3 of the 5 positions.

They need to look at the evaluation process tehy have at OL. I think Cable has done a great job coaching, but hes proven they need a different talent evaluator when it comes to the OL.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirensong wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
THEFOOTBALLXPRT wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
THEFOOTBALLXPRT wrote:
You guys are still completely missing what my point was.

And 2 1st rounders doesn't make an OL... should we even get started about my reaction to Carpenter too? Lol.. although many of us didn't like that pick. I was basically on an island with Curry.
No one was pro-Carpenter on the pick. At best, people supported the position. I still think if he's healthy he'll be a very good LG.

We used a 1st on Okung and Carpenter, a 3rd on Moffitt, and Unger was a lock at C (and a 2nd at that). On top of that, we've constantly been signing guys and having them rotate through.

I don't see how anyone could claim we haven't at least attempted to address OL.


Unger was here before this regime, so I can't really count him in this conversation.

We have drafted more WR than OL. That should be enough for you to worry about. The Rick Neuheisel approach doesn't work.
How can you not factor in Unger? He completely eliminates the need for a C. You have to factor him in.

We needed to fill 4 OL spots when the new regime got here.

We've drafted and/or signed:

2010
-Russell Okung
-Paul McQuistan
-Robert Gallery
-Breno Giacomini

2011
-James Carpenter
-John Moffitt
-Rishaw Johnson

2012
-JR Sweezy
-Frank Omiyale
-Duece Luitui

2013
-Ryan Seymour
-Jared Smith
-Michael Bowie
-UDFA Alvin Bailey

Along with other short-lived guys. All the bolded were guys brought in either with the intention of starting or who have started.

Again, I thin we've been purposeful about addressing the position. We just don't hit as often as we do at DB, LB, or even DL.


And not hitting is a problem, you cant excuse it because they have tried. The fact remains they have failed to get quality NFL starters at 3 of the 5 positions.

They need to look at the evaluation process tehy have at OL. I think Cable has done a great job coaching, but hes proven they need a different talent evaluator when it comes to the OL.
Uh what??

Breno is a quality starter at RT. He's not elite and never will be. Heck, he'll never even be a pro bowler. But he's still a fringe top 10 RT.

Carpenter IS a quality starter. Argue the injuries, that's fair. But he's a starting caliber LG if he plays.

Sweezy is developmental so I wont count him. However, McQuistan is a solid fill in at G and Bailey looks nice.

Between RG and LG, we have one spot that's not truly filled.
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ram29jackson wrote:
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THEFOOTBALLXPRT


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Methinks you way over rate Giacomini. Sweezy may develop into a quality player, but he's still awfully raw. Carpenter sucks and McQuistan should be the 6th OL on most teams. I still agree that we only have 2 quality starters. Granted they're at the 2 most important slots. Hardly anyone you named should have been considered starting material. Carp and Koffitt should have been. Most of the rest of those guys were cast offs and fodder. We could have the best team the NFL has seen since the undefeated Pats, but that OL still has too many questions for my liking.
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sirensong


Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 1152
Location: Vancouver BC
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
sirensong wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
THEFOOTBALLXPRT wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
THEFOOTBALLXPRT wrote:
You guys are still completely missing what my point was.

And 2 1st rounders doesn't make an OL... should we even get started about my reaction to Carpenter too? Lol.. although many of us didn't like that pick. I was basically on an island with Curry.
No one was pro-Carpenter on the pick. At best, people supported the position. I still think if he's healthy he'll be a very good LG.

We used a 1st on Okung and Carpenter, a 3rd on Moffitt, and Unger was a lock at C (and a 2nd at that). On top of that, we've constantly been signing guys and having them rotate through.

I don't see how anyone could claim we haven't at least attempted to address OL.


Unger was here before this regime, so I can't really count him in this conversation.

We have drafted more WR than OL. That should be enough for you to worry about. The Rick Neuheisel approach doesn't work.
How can you not factor in Unger? He completely eliminates the need for a C. You have to factor him in.

We needed to fill 4 OL spots when the new regime got here.

We've drafted and/or signed:

2010
-Russell Okung
-Paul McQuistan
-Robert Gallery
-Breno Giacomini

2011
-James Carpenter
-John Moffitt
-Rishaw Johnson

2012
-JR Sweezy
-Frank Omiyale
-Duece Luitui

2013
-Ryan Seymour
-Jared Smith
-Michael Bowie
-UDFA Alvin Bailey

Along with other short-lived guys. All the bolded were guys brought in either with the intention of starting or who have started.

Again, I thin we've been purposeful about addressing the position. We just don't hit as often as we do at DB, LB, or even DL.


And not hitting is a problem, you cant excuse it because they have tried. The fact remains they have failed to get quality NFL starters at 3 of the 5 positions.

They need to look at the evaluation process tehy have at OL. I think Cable has done a great job coaching, but hes proven they need a different talent evaluator when it comes to the OL.
Uh what??

Breno is a quality starter at RT. He's not elite and never will be. Heck, he'll never even be a pro bowler. But he's still a fringe top 10 RT.

Carpenter IS a quality starter. Argue the injuries, that's fair. But he's a starting caliber LG if he plays.

Sweezy is developmental so I wont count him. However, McQuistan is a solid fill in at G and Bailey looks nice.

Between RG and LG, we have one spot that's not truly filled.


Breno is a fringe starter, your giving him far too much credit. He can be a turnstile out there with even the most barely competent pass rushers. Wilson hides alot but dont get it twisted. Hes very mediocre.

Carp cant get on the field and was a complete failure at the position they wanted him at and is now an injury prone reclemation project. He has some game at LG but he has a TON to prove still. Not a quality starter until he proves he can stay on the field.

Sweezy is starting so he is counted and is the biggest failure. If hes just developmental then why is he starting? Because they have failed to add the necesary talent to allow for true developmental players.

McQuistan is a band aid and not quality anything except depth and should not start anywhere.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously, look through all 32 NFL teams. Find me 10 guys who unquestionably play RT better than Breno.
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...13 Seahawks one spot over the 08 Steelers

ram29jackson wrote:
LO freaking L...Seahawks aren't repeating crap and you can book that
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sirensong


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
Seriously, look through all 32 NFL teams. Find me 10 guys who unquestionably play RT better than Breno.


Anthony Davis
Stewart
Vollmer
Andre Smith
Loadholt
Clabo
Bulaga
Herremans
Cherilus
Mitchell Schwartz
Sean Freaking Locklear
Winston
Eric Fisher/Brandon Alberts
Orlando Franklin

Id take anyone of those guys in their systems over Breno. Now Breno may fit here better. But hes not even close to a top10 anything.
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THEFOOTBALLXPRT


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He might be one of the top 10 meanest... lol
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sirensong


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

THEFOOTBALLXPRT wrote:
He might be one of the top 10 meanest... lol


He's probably top5 in that. But being a big nasty SOB doesnt make you a good player.

Serviceable? Absolutely, can he start? Yes. Quality NFL starter? Not a chance.

Breno can be your RT with a strong OL, is hes your 3rd best guy on any given sunday. Your in some trouble.

Zach Miller can block better consistently than some of the guys weve seen START on this OL. Its pretty pathetic.

Oh and I thought of some more guys..

Newton
Mike Adams
Doug Free
Zacg Streif
Bobby Massie
DJ Fluker

All better in their systems than Breno
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

-There's a reason Eric Winston didn't get picked up for so long. He's no better at pass blocking.
-Lamar Holmes? No.
-Micheal Oher is just as questionable.
-Erik Pears? No.
-Byron Bell. Who?
-Eben Britton? Worse.
-Andre Smith
-Mitchell Schwartz. Haven't heard anything awful about him, I doubt he's better though.
-Doug Free. Nope
-Orlando Franklin has an argument
-Jason Fox? No
-Marshall Newhouse is a no
-Derek Newton I have no idea.
-Gosder Cherilus isn't
-Joeckel will be
-Eric Fisher will be
-Tyson Clabo may be on par right now, but Breno is younger and will be better moving forward
-Phil Loadhalt
-Sebastian Volmer
-Zach Strief I believe is a no
-David Diehl is a no at this point in his career
-No to Austin Howard
-Massive no to Khaliff Barnes
I assume Lane Johnson will be better
-Marcus Gilbert is a no from the minimal I know
-I doubt Fluker will be better this year
-Anthony Davis is great
-Rodger Safold has been bad since his rookie year
-I know nothing about Demar Dotson, but when you TRADE for Carimi to compete with him, he can't be anything special
-David Stewart is still very good.
-Tyler Polombus is not better...

Bulaga I'd probably take over him, he's just not on the list because he's injured this year.

That leaves 10 guys ahead of Breno.

And calling Breno "a turn-stile" is the biggest load of crap. He got too many penalties at the beginning of the year, but he's not that bad at pass blocking.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
...13 Seahawks one spot over the 08 Steelers

ram29jackson wrote:
LO freaking L...Seahawks aren't repeating crap and you can book that
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sirensong


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Posts: 1152
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
-There's a reason Eric Winston didn't get picked up for so long. He's no better at pass blocking.
-Lamar Holmes? No.
-Micheal Oher is just as questionable.
-Erik Pears? No.
-Byron Bell. Who?
-Eben Britton? Worse.
-Andre Smith
-Mitchell Schwartz. Haven't heard anything awful about him, I doubt he's better though.
-Doug Free. Nope
-Orlando Franklin has an argument
-Jason Fox? No
-Marshall Newhouse is a no
-Derek Newton I have no idea.
-Gosder Cherilus isn't
-Joeckel will be
-Eric Fisher will be
-Tyson Clabo may be on par right now, but Breno is younger and will be better moving forward
-Phil Loadhalt
-Sebastian Volmer
-Zach Strief I believe is a no
-David Diehl is a no at this point in his career
-No to Austin Howard
-Massive no to Khaliff Barnes
I assume Lane Johnson will be better
-Marcus Gilbert is a no from the minimal I know
-I doubt Fluker will be better this year
-Anthony Davis is great
-Rodger Safold has been bad since his rookie year
-I know nothing about Demar Dotson, but when you TRADE for Carimi to compete with him, he can't be anything special
-David Stewart is still very good.
-Tyler Polombus is not better...

Bulaga I'd probably take over him, he's just not on the list because he's injured this year.

That leaves 10 guys ahead of Breno.

And calling Breno "a turn-stile" is the biggest load of crap. He got too many penalties at the beginning of the year, but he's not that bad at pass blocking.


Your list just gave me some more names to add!!!

Forgot about Saffold, replace Herrmenans with Johnson. Add Joeckel

I don't agree with alot of your no's either. Alot of guys on that list are better, Breno could well be top 20 and might get talk of top 15 at absolute best.

But like Ive said, this is 3 of 5 positions that are mediocre at best 95% of the time. And that is unacceptable.

If Carp can stay healthy and proves to be an NFL starter that will be huge. The 2 guards get addressed and I can live with Breno. With this OL Breno isnt good enough and is part of the problem.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sirensong wrote:
Oh and I thought of some more guys..

Newton
Mike Adams
Doug Free
Zacg Streif
Bobby Massie
DJ Fluker

All better in their systems than Breno
Come on now... Free? Newton has an argument. Fluker is the only other one with an argument, and he's a less proven Breno. Massie gave up 13.5 sacks last year. Free gave up 7 with 5 holds.

sirensong wrote:
Tatupu_64 wrote:
Seriously, look through all 32 NFL teams. Find me 10 guys who unquestionably play RT better than Breno.


Anthony Davis
Stewart
Vollmer
Andre Smith
Loadholt
Clabo
Bulaga
Herremans
Cherilus
Mitchell Schwartz
Sean Freaking Locklear
Winston
Eric Fisher/Brandon Alberts
Orlando Franklin

Id take anyone of those guys in their systems over Breno. Now Breno may fit here better. But hes not even close to a top10 anything.
Herremans is a Guard displaced to RT last year.

Locklear is a free agent. Just no.

That leaves us with 12 to look at.

These 5 are definitely better
Anthony Davis
Stewart
Vollmer
Andre Smith
Derek Newton

These 3 I assume will be better
Eric Fisher
Lane Johnson
Joeckel


So far, that puts 8 guys ahead, and those rooks are generous.


These are all questionable imo. Clabo and Winston sat in FA for a while for a reason, they're not what they once were. Over the last two years, here's how many sacks, yardage lost, and holdings each has got per 16 games.

Loadholt- 3 holds, 7 sacks, 46.5 yards lost
Orlando Franklin- 2 holds, 5.75 sacks, 49.25 yards lost
Clabo- 1.5 holds, 4.7 sacks, 35.4 yards lost
Bulaga- 3 holds, 4.6 sacks, 28.25 yards lost
Cherilus- 1.5 holds, 7 sacks, 50.25 yards lost
Mitchell Schwartz- 0 holds, 6 sacks, 45.5 yards lost
Winston- 3.5 holds, 6.75 sacks, 32.25 yards lost
Breno- 2.1 holds, 3.1 sacks, 31.5 yards lost

As you can see, Breno has actually been better in pass block than any of them statistically. Breno is a beast in the run game as well.

Franklin I'd still give the nod to as I think he showed great improvement last year.

With Franklin at 9, I'd have Breno in my 10th spot. Arguments for Loadholt and Bulaga I'd buy. I guess you could make an argument for others, but my point remains. Breno is somewhere between 9th and 14th (while factoring in three rookies). That's the definition of fringe top 10.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
...13 Seahawks one spot over the 08 Steelers

ram29jackson wrote:
LO freaking L...Seahawks aren't repeating crap and you can book that
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sirensong


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's so many other factors than just those stats. Like the fact that he has Zach Miller who stays in to block as much as any TE in football and the fact that Russell Wilson is a wizard when it comes to getting away from sacks.

Breno is a prime example of what a system can do for you and how other factors can help your stats.

Im not saying he cant be a starting RT in the NFL he can, buts hes not a strong enought RT to help anchor a line which is what is needed with the other guys on this OL.

My point is Breno is fine if hes your weak link, but hes not.

Breno should be your weak link on a contending team, but hes far from it with this group and thats a HUGE problem.

BTW expecting top 10 picks to better is not a reach at all, all 3 of those guys and Fluker will be better than Breno this year. Hes no higher than 15th.
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Tatupu_64


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never said it was reaching to put those 3 ahead. Fluker won't be better this year. That still puts Breno top 10.

I don't care that you think Breno should be our weakest link because the fact is, it's a practical impossibility for us to get any better at RT
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BlaqOptic wrote:
...13 Seahawks one spot over the 08 Steelers

ram29jackson wrote:
LO freaking L...Seahawks aren't repeating crap and you can book that
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sirensong


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2013 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatupu_64 wrote:
I never said it was reaching to put those 3 ahead. Fluker won't be better this year. That still puts Breno top 10.

I don't care that you think Breno should be our weakest link because the fact is, it's a practical impossibility for us to get any better at RT


Wow... You've completely lost what I was saying at this point.

I really don't know how this became so exclusively about Breno, but that wasnt what I was getting it.

We have 2 quality top 10 starters on the OL, 1 starter, 1 potentially starting caliber but always hurt G, 1 utility journeymen and nothing else of NFL quality without look at a 7th rd pick and an undrafted rookie.

How in the world you think our OL isnt a giant gaping hole is beyond me. Carp is already hurt and the year hasnt started, Sweezy has been trash, McQuistan isnt a starting NFL player.

This notion that they have addressed the OL is ridiculous. Sure they've brought in bodies but thats far from good enough.

Ill give you Breno even tho I think we can do better. Carp is a walking band aid and a failure at his position and Sweezy is the worst starting guard in the NFL.

I love this FO and this regime, but its not good enough. They have failed to do with the OL what they have shown they are capable of when it comes to personnel.
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