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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22392
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Chali21 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
The hard part here is if they decide to start Flynn, it's going to get really ugly at O.co.

This Pryor situation is bordering on Tebow levels of nonsense circa the Kyle Orton era. The fans are not concerned w/ the ability to be a consistent passer, etc. they just want to see some sandlot football which is what Pryor offers.

I have my doubts you can stick Pryor into the base offense for 60 minutes and he can distribute the ball around and make plays. IMO, you are going to get the occasional big play coupled w/ a lot of three and outs between the 20's.

Defenses will eventually limited his ability to run and force him to be a passer. That is when the test of how good he can be as a starter begins.


Wasn't that what our offense was like last year?

Also it's been like this every year since Gannon left.

When Collins was starting people wanted to see Tui
When it was Brooks people wanted to see Walter
When it was McCown it was Culpepper/Russell
When it was Russell it was anyone else
When it was Cambell it was Gradcowski
And when it was Palmer it was Pryor

The only thing that will change this is if the raiders get a franchise guy like: Brees Rodgers Brady Manning Wilson RG3 Ryan Luck or Kapernick.


Don't blame me..... I pimped him all offseason and wanted to draft him in the worst way.

However, as much as I love Kaepernick I imagine he'd be having a very different start to his career in Oakland. This is not a place for a young QB. No Oline, poor WRs, no TE. Really need to build this up before thinking about drafting a QB in the future.


+1

Kaepernick would be ruined right about now. People think the Raiders can develop Bridgewater while he runs for his life. Bridgewater in Oakland would be more David Carr than Russell Wilson. If the Raiders have a draft with a HEAVY emphasis on improving the trenches as well hit on a few key FA OL the Raiders could be ready as soon as 2014.


With who under center?
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:

With who under center?


Haven't really broken down any of the 2014 class let alone QBs. Even I'm not that sick (although I did peek a bit). Regardless, I don't care as much as I would hate to see some rookie QB or FA QB get ragdolled every Sunday. I wouldn't wish that on an enemy.

The only thing that could change that position is if a QB with a super quick release with accuracy presents himself as a quick release can make up for a porous OL, more effectively than even running.

EDIT: With a 49er or Raven-esque OL the Raiders could win 8 games with Willie Lump-Lump under center.
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DudeWhat??


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
Tacos wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:

My guess is Pryor will start next week. Only reason being, you rarely start your starters in week 4 of the preseason. I don't think anyone deserves anything after one half of playing well when the inconsistencies and issues are still present. Flynn has outplayed him almost the entire off-season. He still deserves to start. I look at the entire picture, not just a portion.
I typically agree with your statements, although I strongly defended Branch a couple years ago. (You turned out to be right for the most part, but I still think Branch can do very well on a good defense)

However are you saying that, all things considered, Flynn should start? He hasn't outplayed Pryor by much and against NO Pryor seemed to be running whatever offense they planned to use him in if he were a backup. I don't think that game is a fair assessment of Pryor, because he's performed well, in his own way, when actually playing as the QB. We all know the mistakes he makes, but the spark he brings is undeniable.

More importantly, with our offensive line the way it is, I don't see how anyone can want to start Flynn. The man has shown that he has no pocket awareness and little ability to shift the line. Pryor is unfortunately the better option, given our current situation. Teams don't have a choice but to respect his ability to run them over, which buys him time to throw. If his throwing is what worries you, and I know it is, then maybe that's an issue but Matt Flynn will do no more than dink, dunk, and get sacked. In the end I think Pryor's turnover potential is on par with Flynn's. Flynn gets no respect from the defense and will be more prone to fumbling behind our line.


To revisit the games, Pryor was OK against Dallas. He again showed poor decision making which bit him in the [inappropriate/removed]. He was crap against NO and he played well yesterday. Against NO, again, poor decision making which luckily wasn't a pick 6 b/c the defender mistimed a jump and even yesterday, he made some dumb decisions. I don't like that. It's my preference. Those are the breaks though. At times, it will work in your favor and at times it will not. If he would just stop doing those stupid things every single game and run the ball more than he threw it, I'd be OK.

To be fair, we don't know who's not shifting or is shifting what. Regardless, it's not the QBs job to say "hey, block this guy". It's not like our linemen are retards..... well...... nevermind. Regardless, I think there's too much emphasis on that aspect of the game. This is also Matt Flynn, not Tom Brady. He's still learning also. We seem to hold him to a higher standard b/c he's the starting QB as of now but seem to forget he's not experienced. Everyone here was preaching Pryor needed more game time snaps and blah blah blah while forgetting Flynn was barely ahead of him in that aspect. I highly disagree the turnover potential is on par. We can use yesterday's game all you want and the first was obvious miscommunication but from what I saw, Flynn has done well protecting the ball considering he's had literally no time to throw it.

Ultimately we'll just see what happens. Both QBs will be playing at one point so all this is pointless discussion anyway haha.



That's exactly the QB's Job, and if TP wasn't doing it but Flynn was you'd all be saying how dumb TP is and how smart Flynn is....
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DudeWhat?? wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
Tacos wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:

My guess is Pryor will start next week. Only reason being, you rarely start your starters in week 4 of the preseason. I don't think anyone deserves anything after one half of playing well when the inconsistencies and issues are still present. Flynn has outplayed him almost the entire off-season. He still deserves to start. I look at the entire picture, not just a portion.
I typically agree with your statements, although I strongly defended Branch a couple years ago. (You turned out to be right for the most part, but I still think Branch can do very well on a good defense)

However are you saying that, all things considered, Flynn should start? He hasn't outplayed Pryor by much and against NO Pryor seemed to be running whatever offense they planned to use him in if he were a backup. I don't think that game is a fair assessment of Pryor, because he's performed well, in his own way, when actually playing as the QB. We all know the mistakes he makes, but the spark he brings is undeniable.

More importantly, with our offensive line the way it is, I don't see how anyone can want to start Flynn. The man has shown that he has no pocket awareness and little ability to shift the line. Pryor is unfortunately the better option, given our current situation. Teams don't have a choice but to respect his ability to run them over, which buys him time to throw. If his throwing is what worries you, and I know it is, then maybe that's an issue but Matt Flynn will do no more than dink, dunk, and get sacked. In the end I think Pryor's turnover potential is on par with Flynn's. Flynn gets no respect from the defense and will be more prone to fumbling behind our line.


To revisit the games, Pryor was OK against Dallas. He again showed poor decision making which bit him in the [inappropriate/removed]. He was crap against NO and he played well yesterday. Against NO, again, poor decision making which luckily wasn't a pick 6 b/c the defender mistimed a jump and even yesterday, he made some dumb decisions. I don't like that. It's my preference. Those are the breaks though. At times, it will work in your favor and at times it will not. If he would just stop doing those stupid things every single game and run the ball more than he threw it, I'd be OK.

To be fair, we don't know who's not shifting or is shifting what. Regardless, it's not the QBs job to say "hey, block this guy". It's not like our linemen are retards..... well...... nevermind. Regardless, I think there's too much emphasis on that aspect of the game. This is also Matt Flynn, not Tom Brady. He's still learning also. We seem to hold him to a higher standard b/c he's the starting QB as of now but seem to forget he's not experienced. Everyone here was preaching Pryor needed more game time snaps and blah blah blah while forgetting Flynn was barely ahead of him in that aspect. I highly disagree the turnover potential is on par. We can use yesterday's game all you want and the first was obvious miscommunication but from what I saw, Flynn has done well protecting the ball considering he's had literally no time to throw it.

Ultimately we'll just see what happens. Both QBs will be playing at one point so all this is pointless discussion anyway haha.



That's exactly the QB's Job, and if TP wasn't doing it but Flynn was you'd all be saying how dumb TP is and how smart Flynn is....


this.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DudeWhat?? wrote:

That's exactly the QB's Job, and if TP wasn't doing it but Flynn was you'd all be saying how dumb TP is and how smart Flynn is....


QBs audible to change plays or routes to counter a blitz or if he thinks a play won't work. The QB will let the OL know about an impending blitz but the OC is generally responsible for calling out the blocking assignments. (identifiable by pointing with one hand on the ball.)

I don't think the Raiders have very many audibles, if at all. They run the play that is given to them by Olson's design. The shifting that I have seen so tends to occur most often when Pryor is in the game. Shifting to confuse is not audibling.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DudeWhat?? wrote:
That's exactly the QB's Job, and if TP wasn't doing it but Flynn was you'd all be saying how dumb TP is and how smart Flynn is....


I love how you know so much about me but this is incredibly false. The only thing I would be calling "dumb" are the supposed lineman who have no clue what they're doing unless the QB tells them to. That notion is just so stupid. I understand they need blitzers pointed out from time to time but you act like they're incapable of knowing they're chewing on a rock before losing 4 teeth. Give me a break.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I dont recall seeing flynn pre snap adjustments. Hot routes, audibles, blitz pick up, motions, shifts, or anything. What does it say they trust pryor with those things but not flynn. Or maybe they trust flynn and he just doesnt do it. If im an o cord no way would I roll with flynn and watch my offense be one of the worse in the league. At least with pryor I can be creative and when things go wrong the young raw inexperience qb excuse is at my disposal.
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TiberiusRising


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
But I dont recall seeing flynn pre snap adjustments. Hot routes, audibles, blitz pick up, motions, shifts, or anything. What does it say they trust pryor with those things but not flynn. Or maybe they trust flynn and he just doesnt do it. If im an o cord no way would I roll with flynn and watch my offense be one of the worse in the league. At least with pryor I can be creative and when things go wrong the young raw inexperience qb excuse is at my disposal.

That is a concern for whatever reason that Pryor seems to be doing more of this than Flynn. I would think it would be the other way around.
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BuckSavage


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flynn never had a resume to warrant a starting position in the first place. A popgun QB with No velocity on his throws and looks his max range is 15 to 20 yards down the field. We'll win 1 game (1-15) with Flynn starting this year. Jaws was right, absolutely no arm strength

I'll even vote for Pryor being a better passer at this point. Teams will easily scheme around Flynn arm limitations.

Pryor gives us superstar potential. Pryor makes everyone better on the team. Just watch what happens with McFadden and Ford.
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NCOUGHMAN


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
DudeWhat?? wrote:
That's exactly the QB's Job, and if TP wasn't doing it but Flynn was you'd all be saying how dumb TP is and how smart Flynn is....


I love how you know so much about me but this is incredibly false. The only thing I would be calling "dumb" are the supposed lineman who have no clue what they're doing unless the QB tells them to. That notion is just so stupid. I understand they need blitzers pointed out from time to time but you act like they're incapable of knowing they're chewing on a rock before losing 4 teeth. Give me a break.
doesn't Peyton manning do that presnap a majority of the time iirc
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
DudeWhat?? wrote:
That's exactly the QB's Job, and if TP wasn't doing it but Flynn was you'd all be saying how dumb TP is and how smart Flynn is....


I love how you know so much about me but this is incredibly false. The only thing I would be calling "dumb" are the supposed lineman who have no clue what they're doing unless the QB tells them to. That notion is just so stupid. I understand they need blitzers pointed out from time to time but you act like they're incapable of knowing they're chewing on a rock before losing 4 teeth. Give me a break.
doesn't Peyton manning do that presnap a majority of the time iirc


It's not even close to being the same thing.

EDIT: Let me clarify. If you're going to knock Flynn for not doing what Peyton does, you need to knock 90% of QBs in the league. Basically no one does what he does presnap. Secondly, if you're implying what Pryor is doing presnap is what Peyton is doing, you need to pay more attention b/c again, no one does what Peyton does presnap.

Again, linemen are not morons. They know what they're supposed to do and don't need a parent to tell them who to block. Would it help if Flynn was calling out possible blitzers? Sure, but it's not a necessity.
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wizardg


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Red and DA tried to hand the job to Flynn.

Right now Seattle has to be laughing at us.
Why?
We gave them 2 picks for Flynn and he's recieving a garaunteed 6mil. For what?
Was there a bidding war for this guy?
Guys like Flynn you get as UFAs ...

My gripe with DA is that Mark D had to make DA play Pryor last year.

Big Red and DA's Flynn love may cost them their jobs. Because it is the cherry on top of several offensive mistakes. They appear to be lost when it comes to offense.


Here's my case for Pryor over Flynn

1. TP was the #1 player (QB) in the country as a High Schooler.

2. He was a major star in College. Only Cam had a higher QB rating of the rookies who came in his year. 3 are now starters in Cinn, Minn, and Tenn.

3. He's great at the things that you can't really teach. The areas he needs to work on are teachable.

4. TP's talent level is Jordanic. Some don't have the vision to see that his athleticsm makes his teammates better, as they say in basketball. TP makes his line and his recievers and his backs appea to be better.

How?
a. he helps the line because he is prob the hardest QB to sack in the NFL.
b. when he scrambles or rolls his speed and the threat he could take it to the house causes DBs to lose his WRs.
c. The threat of his run creats opening for the RBs.

the easiert way to defend TP is when the OC calls run-run-pass. It's hardest to defend him when the OC calls. pass-pass-pass-run-pass-pass-run.

Because any pass play for him is a potential run as well. And the more pass plays the OC calls the more frustrated and tired the DL becomes and the more relaxed TP gets because he doesn't have only one chance out of three plays to make a play. That's when he begins to take over games.

Last but not the least of my arguments is that Flynn is a bum. Just like Josh McClown was a bum.
Flynn is no better than Trent Edwards.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did someone just compare Pryor to Michael Jordan while telling us all about his meaningless college accomplishments?

That's my exit.
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Chali21


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wizardg wrote:
Big Red and DA tried to hand the job to Flynn.

Right now Seattle has to be laughing at us.
Why?
We gave them 2 picks for Flynn and he's recieving a garaunteed 6mil. For what?
Was there a bidding war for this guy?
Guys like Flynn you get as UFAs ...

My gripe with DA is that Mark D had to make DA play Pryor last year.

Big Red and DA's Flynn love may cost them their jobs. Because it is the cherry on top of several offensive mistakes. They appear to be lost when it comes to offense.


Here's my case for Pryor over Flynn

1. TP was the #1 player (QB) in the country as a High Schooler.

2. He was a major star in College. Only Cam had a higher QB rating of the rookies who came in his year. 3 are now starters in Cinn, Minn, and Tenn.

3. He's great at the things that you can't really teach. The areas he needs to work on are teachable.

4. TP's talent level is Jordanic. Some don't have the vision to see that his athleticsm makes his teammates better, as they say in basketball. TP makes his line and his recievers and his backs appea to be better.

How?
a. he helps the line because he is prob the hardest QB to sack in the NFL.
b. when he scrambles or rolls his speed and the threat he could take it to the house causes DBs to lose his WRs.
c. The threat of his run creats opening for the RBs.

the easiert way to defend TP is when the OC calls run-run-pass. It's hardest to defend him when the OC calls. pass-pass-pass-run-pass-pass-run.

Because any pass play for him is a potential run as well. And the more pass plays the OC calls the more frustrated and tired the DL becomes and the more relaxed TP gets because he doesn't have only one chance out of three plays to make a play. That's when he begins to take over games.

Last but not the least of my arguments is that Flynn is a bum. Just like Josh McClown was a bum.
Flynn is no better than Trent Edwards.


Flynn had a low ceiling but a floor that was higher than Pryors. Now I like Pryor Im not to sure on him but I like his abilities and potential and he has shown some growth.

To be honest we didn't give up the much for Flynn, the two second rounders were low and 6 million isn't a ton in the grand scheme of things. Besides he was only signed for 2 years. I also like it because in this situation we can promote Pryor as opposed to Palmer who's reputation and talent would demand that he remain the starter.

I am pro Pryor because he does give us the best opportunity to win right now.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
DudeWhat?? wrote:
That's exactly the QB's Job, and if TP wasn't doing it but Flynn was you'd all be saying how dumb TP is and how smart Flynn is....


I love how you know so much about me but this is incredibly false. The only thing I would be calling "dumb" are the supposed lineman who have no clue what they're doing unless the QB tells them to. That notion is just so stupid. I understand they need blitzers pointed out from time to time but you act like they're incapable of knowing they're chewing on a rock before losing 4 teeth. Give me a break.
doesn't Peyton manning do that presnap a majority of the time iirc


MOST of what Peyton is doing pre-snap is gibberish cover for the few changes he actually does make.
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