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Question of the Day: Does Joe Webb make the team?
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DudeWhat??


Joined: 01 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
Dude what?

Burton is single covered there with a LB in zone heading towards Burton. Burton had plenty of room to continue the route, make a catch and cover the ball. He may get hit, but the slant is intended to quickly beat the CB to the inside and get to a spot before the LB does. Burton would have done this if he kept running his route. Ponder made the correct decision, he saw an open receiver with a LB almost five yards from Burton. Burton was open.

actually no.... the linebacker was there to quick he read ponder..he was not going for the hit..he was going for the sure INT return for TD...Ponder should have pulled it down.




Quote:
Look at the picture where Ponder is about to throw the ball. Burton is breaking open, and there is no one in front of him.

Burton stopped the route because he was afraid of going over the middle and taking a hit. If Burton continues the route, the linebacker has no chance at making the play as he's flat footed, and in front of Kyle Rudolph when the throw is being made.


actually no..don't look at the picture..because in this case it tells you nothing..i saw the live play that night..then in slow motion...im sorry guys..ponder got read to easy and he should have pulled it down...quick slant does not mean you force it in no matter what..this play was botched..pull it down..do to other option or throw it away,.
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Krauser


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
actually no.... the linebacker was there to quick he read ponder..he was not going for the hit..he was going for the sure INT return for TD...Ponder should have pulled it down.


If the LB was "going for the sure INT return for the TD", why didn't he catch the ball? It's not like Burton stopping on the route was going to interfere with the LB making the pick.

Quote:
actually no..don't look at the picture..because in this case it tells you nothing..i saw the live play that night..then in slow motion...im sorry guys..ponder got read to easy and he should have pulled it down...quick slant does not mean you force it in no matter what..this play was botched..pull it down..do to other option or throw it away,.


Actually yes, look at the picture:


It's about 10 yards from the top of the numbers to the nearest hash mark, meaning the LB is about 8 yards away from Burton, having just changed direction from following Rudolph the other way. The ball's on its way, ends up hitting the CB in the hands just in front of the "0" in the "40". The LB wasn't even close to being close to picking that off.
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swiss_vike


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DudeWhat?? wrote:
actually no..don't look at the picture..because in this case it tells you nothing..i saw the live play that night..then in slow motion...im sorry guys


No need to be sorry. It's obvious you don't like Ponder. The case is crystal clear, on the picture, live, and in slow motion. The LB never was close enough to prevent a catch by Burton. Stating otherwise just exposes you.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DudeWhat?? wrote:
actually no..don't look at the picture..because in this case it tells you nothing..i saw the live play that night..then in slow motion...im sorry guys..ponder got read to easy and he should have pulled it down...quick slant does not mean you force it in no matter what..this play was botched..pull it down..do to other option or throw it away,.

well, Cris Collinsworth, a former wide receiver himself, saw the play live too. he stated clearly the fault did not lay with Ponder. and in other instances during the game he was critical of mistakes or missed opportunities Ponder had. so i'd say he was giving a fair analysis.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As others have pointed out, the linebacker was roughly ten yards away when Burton broke off his route. There is no way the linebacker would have beaten the ball to the spot at that distance. Burton would have been as open as you're going to get on a slant. He beat the cb to the inside and that is usually all a qb needs to complete this pass as the lb is mostly irrelevant in this situation if he is playing zone with a Te crossing his face.
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SemperFeist


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having just watched the play again, I love NFL Rewind, there is zero chance that the linebacker was going to intercept the ball, in fact there is zero chance that the linebacker was even thinking about intercepting the ball.

What you can see clearly is Burton stopping his route and bringing his hands up to his chest to protect himself from getting hit. Even after the ball is passed him, he's staring at the linebacker, afraid of getting hit.

This was Burton 100%.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Burton is known for being a standout run blocker and special teams coverage guy. Odd that he would wuss out going over the middle. Even Webb has shown a willingness to take hits over the middle of the field. This shouldn't cost burton his job though but is rather keep Webb if it came to these two
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SemperFeist


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And just because we're into the whole picture thing;

Picture 1 is when the ball comes into the screen.



Picture 2 is when the ball hits off of Burton's hand.



That linebacker isn't even close. In fact, from the time Ponder releases the ball, the the time it was tipped, he may have moved all of 2 feet.
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swiss_vike


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heck, even Moss had more courage to go over the middle. That's pathetic by Burton.
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vike daddy


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SemperFeist wrote:
That linebacker isn't even close. In fact, from the time Ponder releases the ball, the the time it was tipped, he may have moved all of 2 feet.

the two pics you posted above show the LB's feet on the same spot on the field, before and after the intended catch. all he's done is shifted his posture toward Burton.
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wcblack34


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ponder caused 9/11.


Back to Joe Webb...

I think that Webb makes the roster. He's valuable in many areas of the game. He can be the emergency QB. He can return kickoffs if necessary. If he continues to improve as a receiver, his open field running skills could help him make some big plays here and there. He also allows you to run things like the Wildcat ("Blazer"). Burton is a good run blocker and seems to make a few catches here and there, but he doesn't offer you much more than that. When you're the 5th or 6th WR, run blocking isn't going to get you on the field.
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The Gnat


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with some of what you wrote, wcblack34, except that part about being a 5/6 receiver, blocking not getting you on the field, I think the opposite is true, instead of putting one of your more athletic WR's just off the line to chip a DE on a run play and put them in a position where they are more likely to get rolled up on, put someone who is better at run blocking.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gnat wrote:
I agree with some of what you wrote, wcblack34, except that part about being a 5/6 receiver, blocking not getting you on the field, I think the opposite is true, instead of putting one of your more athletic WR's just off the line to chip a DE on a run play and put them in a position where they are more likely to get rolled up on, put someone who is better at run blocking.


The issue with putting Burton on the field on run plays is that its a pretty clear indicator that you're going to run the ball. If didn't seem to affect the run game since Peterson was a beast and even when teams knew the Vikings were running it didn't the matter.

The true issue could be the impact on the passing game. If burton is out of the game, can they expect a pass? Play action could be rendered ineffective. Point is burton really has to improve as a receiver so he isn't a tell for what mn is doing on any given play
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
The true issue could be the impact on the passing game. If burton is out of the game, can they expect a pass? Play action could be rendered ineffective. Point is burton really has to improve as a receiver so he isn't a tell for what mn is doing on any given play


Burton off the field wouldn't really tell the defense whether its a run or pass. He's at best the 5th receiver, so he won't be on the field every play. Doesn't mean we are going to pass every time.
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JMac79


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
The issue with putting Burton on the field on run plays is that its a pretty clear indicator that you're going to run the ball. If didn't seem to affect the run game since Peterson was a beast and even when teams knew the Vikings were running it didn't the matter.

The true issue could be the impact on the passing game. If burton is out of the game, can they expect a pass? Play action could be rendered ineffective. Point is burton really has to improve as a receiver so he isn't a tell for what mn is doing on any given play


IIRC, isn't Burton also a contributor on Special Teams as well? That could be a major factor when it comes to making a decision between him and Webb...

...And it makes for an interesting decision if that's what it comes down to: which package of versatility do you choose? Webb, who allows you to carry 2 QBs, run some trick formations/plays, maybe return some kicks, and may have some talent to be a jump-ball threat as a WR? Or Burton, who has some ability as a WR on short/intermediate routes, is a really good run blocker, and who can also contribute on special teams as a blocker, in coverage, and possibly even as a returner (he has been doing the latter in preseason)? Tough decision, because there's definitely benefits to both skillsets; if Webb could learn some of what Burton does on STs as a coverage guy, that could make Burton a bit more expendable...
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