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Preseason, Week 3: VIKINGS (0-2) at 49ers (1-1)
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SFaithful97


Joined: 08 Mar 2007
Posts: 2975
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vikefan79 wrote:
Klomp wrote:
If Williams' injury is serious, our defensive tackle position could be in trouble. Still don't have Ballard back either.


Frazier they'll be sending that play to the NFL front offices for review. Should be a fine coming.
Yeah I was watching it and I said that immediately. I will be very surprised if there is no league discipline for that "block"

All in all though, I thought your defense did a pretty good job for the most part. Two out of Kaepernicks 3 drives stalled very early, and that hasn't happened at all this preseason. The offense though (granted without Peterson) looked defeated at the point of attack almost all night long, with the exception of Ponders TD drive in the 3rd quarter. Hope you guys fare well this year, and see you in January!
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I'd rather have young Wagner and Wright going forward than Willis and Bowman.
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SFaithful97


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jshowers wrote:
this providence wrote:
PrplChilPill wrote:
Childress did NOT run his offense when Favre came, he let Favre run it.


Agree to disagree. The same principles were there. Favre had the equity, knowledge, and the skill set to take advantage.

When you show coaches you can make certain throws, consistently, there's now something a coach can build an offense and game plan around. What has Ponder shown he can do in the passing game? I feel bad for this coaching staff that they have to come up with some type offense given the capabilities, or lack thereof, they get from the QB position.

Honestly, sitting here today, does anyone know what Ponder's does well at an NFL level? Because it's pretty hard to say. Now, plan an offensive game plan through the air based on that...


Um, yeah?

He is consistently accurate on short and intermediate routes. Generally makes sound decisions. Very mobile and is comfortable outside the pocket. He's become adept at making pre-snap changes to the play to exploit defenses, especially in the running game.
I agree with this. He really needs to work on his ability to pass downfield, but he has the mentality to be a good starter. When the pocket breaks down, he is very good at escaping and turning it into a positive play.
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MAC DRE wrote:
I'd rather have young Wagner and Wright going forward than Willis and Bowman.
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HighHopes


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ponder is a heck of a scrambler. Very underrated there imo lol
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twslhs20


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HighHopes wrote:
Ponder is a heck of a scrambler. Very underrated there imo lol


Well that's pretty much all he did at FSU Laughing
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vikings209


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:
vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
It just seems like it's too simple of an offense. You hardly see guys stretch the field.



"I run 6 plays, split veer. It's like Novocain. Just give it time, it always works. See you on the bus."


Love that movie Applause
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vikesnewcoach11


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jshowers wrote:
First of all, saying they need to be more of a spread offense and saying they need to stretch the field more are very different.

Secondly, you have to think about the strengths of our players, man. We don't run a vertical offense because Ponder has a very average arm and has no zip on throws over 25 yards. He has decent touch but struggles with accuracy down field as well. Just look at the first play of the game last night where his ball to Jennings deep off play action wasn't even close.

We also have no established deep threats. Seriously, we have nobody that can consistently get open and secure the ball on vertical routes.

We remedy that by using a bunch of short to intermediate (10-20 yard) passing routes with the emphasis on screens, slants, and crosses over the middle as well as hitting the TEs up the seam or on check downs. Ponder is accurate in that range and has a quick release so this is where we should focus our passing attack. Our receivers aren't big, fast vertical guys but they are decent in space and fairly good route runners. We also have a big TE to target over the middle with great hands and an outstanding catch radius.


Well what I meant by spread is stretching the field. I guess I just worded it wrong. My fault there.

But when you say we have no "established" deep threat that makes me wonder. Greg Jennings is an established veteran that can definitely stretch the field, Jarius Wright and Jerome Simpson (more in practice) have shown flashes of being deep threats, and Patterson has all the speed in the world to be a deep threat. You're acting like we have a crew of Michael Jenkins' on our team. So send these guys down the field more often instead of throwing them quick slants all day is what I'm saying.

Just because Ponder overthrew Jennings last night doesnt mean it wont work. QB's overthrow their WR's...it happens. He showed he could do this last year and if you allow him to do it now it would be a huge confidence booster and I feel confidence is one of his biggest issues. He overthrew the guy so that shows he has the strength. Now we just have to improve on the accuracy but when you're being conservative and throwing short passes all day, its tough to make improvement. Let the guy stretch the field and gain some confidence in himself. I just feel like they are almost restricting him too much.
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jshowers


Joined: 03 May 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikesnewcoach11 wrote:
jshowers wrote:
First of all, saying they need to be more of a spread offense and saying they need to stretch the field more are very different.

Secondly, you have to think about the strengths of our players, man. We don't run a vertical offense because Ponder has a very average arm and has no zip on throws over 25 yards. He has decent touch but struggles with accuracy down field as well. Just look at the first play of the game last night where his ball to Jennings deep off play action wasn't even close.

We also have no established deep threats. Seriously, we have nobody that can consistently get open and secure the ball on vertical routes.

We remedy that by using a bunch of short to intermediate (10-20 yard) passing routes with the emphasis on screens, slants, and crosses over the middle as well as hitting the TEs up the seam or on check downs. Ponder is accurate in that range and has a quick release so this is where we should focus our passing attack. Our receivers aren't big, fast vertical guys but they are decent in space and fairly good route runners. We also have a big TE to target over the middle with great hands and an outstanding catch radius.


Well what I meant by spread is stretching the field. I guess I just worded it wrong. My fault there.

But when you say we have no "established" deep threat that makes me wonder. Greg Jennings is an established veteran that can definitely stretch the field, Jarius Wright and Jerome Simpson (more in practice) have shown flashes of being deep threats, and Patterson has all the speed in the world to be a deep threat. You're acting like we have a crew of Michael Jenkins' on our team. So send these guys down the field more often instead of throwing them quick slants all day is what I'm saying.

Just because Ponder overthrew Jennings last night doesnt mean it wont work. QB's overthrow their WR's...it happens. He showed he could do this last year and if you allow him to do it now it would be a huge confidence booster and I feel confidence is one of his biggest issues. He overthrew the guy so that shows he has the strength. Now we just have to improve on the accuracy but when you're being conservative and throwing short passes all day, its tough to make improvement. Let the guy stretch the field and gain some confidence in himself. I just feel like they are almost restricting him too much.


I have never seen Ponder show he could consistently hit on throws down field last year. When did he show he could do it?

Cuz his career completion percentage on throws down field is 36.9%, while league average is 42.3%.

As exciting as the vertical passing game is, it's not Ponder's strength and doesn't fit our personnel.

Now I'm with you calling for innovation. I want to see a more aggressive offensive game plan. But not one that asks Ponder to throw deep like Stafford does in Detroit's scheme - it just wouldn't work here. We can be more creative without throwing deep more. That's on the coaching staff to figure out.
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Purplexing


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jshowers wrote:
I have never seen Ponder show he could consistently hit on throws down field last year. When did he show he could do it?

Cuz his career completion percentage on throws down field is 36.9%, while league average is 42.3%.

As exciting as the vertical passing game is, it's not Ponder's strength and doesn't fit our personnel.

Now I'm with you calling for innovation. I want to see a more aggressive offensive game plan. But not one that asks Ponder to throw deep like Stafford does in Detroit's scheme - it just wouldn't work here. We can be more creative without throwing deep more. That's on the coaching staff to figure out.


The difference in the completion percentage for Ponder vs NFL avg is 5.4%. That means 1 less completion in 19 or 20 attempts 'downfield'.

Assume NFL QBs throw 'downfield' about 6 or 7 times a game. If so, then 19 or 20 downfield attempts occur over 3 games.

If the assumptions above hold, Ponder completes 1 less pass 'downfield' over each 3 game period.

Pfft. Insignificant difference.

With better WRs running downfield routes in 2013, Ponder's completions may improve by 1 or 2 over a 3 game period to Average or Slightly Above Average.

IMO, the most important aspect of a QBs performance is their ability to keep the chains moving. Shorter passes accomplish the same thing as deeper passes, albeit requiring more attempts and completions.

Deep passes are important, but over-valued by some analysts.
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Vikefan79


Joined: 05 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

twslhs20 wrote:
HighHopes wrote:
Ponder is a heck of a scrambler. Very underrated there imo lol


Well that's pretty much all he did at FSU Laughing


Well that statement is false
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wcblack34


Joined: 21 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vikefan79 wrote:
twslhs20 wrote:
HighHopes wrote:
Ponder is a heck of a scrambler. Very underrated there imo lol


Well that's pretty much all he did at FSU Laughing


Well that statement is false


Stick around any Ponder discussion for more than a few posts and the hyperbole is bound to show up sooner rather than later.
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jshowers


Joined: 03 May 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purplexing wrote:
jshowers wrote:
I have never seen Ponder show he could consistently hit on throws down field last year. When did he show he could do it?

Cuz his career completion percentage on throws down field is 36.9%, while league average is 42.3%.

As exciting as the vertical passing game is, it's not Ponder's strength and doesn't fit our personnel.

Now I'm with you calling for innovation. I want to see a more aggressive offensive game plan. But not one that asks Ponder to throw deep like Stafford does in Detroit's scheme - it just wouldn't work here. We can be more creative without throwing deep more. That's on the coaching staff to figure out.


The difference in the completion percentage for Ponder vs NFL avg is 5.4%. That means 1 less completion in 19 or 20 attempts 'downfield'.

Assume NFL QBs throw 'downfield' about 6 or 7 times a game. If so, then 19 or 20 downfield attempts occur over 3 games.

If the assumptions above hold, Ponder completes 1 less pass 'downfield' over each 3 game period.

Pfft. Insignificant difference.

With better WRs running downfield routes in 2013, Ponder's completions may improve by 1 or 2 over a 3 game period to Average or Slightly Above Average.

IMO, the most important aspect of a QBs performance is their ability to keep the chains moving. Shorter passes accomplish the same thing as deeper passes, albeit requiring more attempts and completions.

Deep passes are important, but over-valued by some analysts.


I agree that getting first downs through the air when needed is the most crucial thing a QB must do. I wasn't arguing that the deep ball is important. I was saying that we don't need the deep ball, or shouldn't need it very much to be effective - it's not Ponder's forte and it doesn't fit with the strengths/weaknesses of our offensive personnel. It needs to be incorporated, but shouldn't be a focal point. Teams can be creative, aggressive, and effective without going shotgun, spread formation, chuck it deep like some on here seem to think. The Seahawks have one of the NFL's most run heavy offenses but are extremely efficient and can make plays through the air because of a true #1 RB and capable back ups, a QB who makes good decisions and has rapport with his WRs, and lastly because the QB plays in a system that lets him use his skills to his advantage. They mix in enough wrinkles like the read option, run/pass options, designed roll outs, and down field crossing routes to keep defenses off guard. They rely on the same principles the Vikings should and do, however, those being the rushing attack, play action, and high percentage passes.
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Krauser


Joined: 20 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PFF notes: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/08/26/refo-min-sf-preseason-wk-3/

Brian Robison:
Quote:
In his most meaningful action of the preseason to date (36 snaps),Robison racked up six hurries (+2.9 pass rush) to intimate that just as fast a start might be in the cards in 2013.


Christian Ponder:
Quote:
Ponder did show glimpses of an ability to hit those intermediate throws against the 49ers yesterday, going 4-for-4 for 59 yards on throws aimed between 10 and 19 yards downfield.


Josh Robinson vs Xavier Rhodes:
Quote:
In his most extended action of preseason Robinson surrendered completions on all nine of the passes targeted to his coverage for 70 yards and a touchdown. ... His competition to start at LCB, Rhodes, has played 55 snaps in the last two preseason games and has allowed only seven yards on five targets with a pass defense.


Desmond Bishop:
Quote:
Desmond Bishop didnít get to start for the Vikings but did have a busy nightís work, registering 33 snaps and eight tackles as he ramped up towards a potential regular season return with the Vikings. Bishop got 5 snaps at middle linebacker but played mostly on the outside showing well in run defense (+2.7).


(Mitchell was terrible in run defense -- he got blocked to the ground on the shovel pass Cook rescued by coming across the field and was the worst miss on LaMichael James's double spin moves).

...

Few other notes:

Ponder did well yesterday on 3rd down, at least after the fumble on the first series. For the game on 3rd down:
3/4 for 30 yards, 2 first downs (including 1 TD), plus 2 DPI calls (including one in the end zone), plus 2 scrambles for first downs, plus one sack/fumble. The completion that didn't go for a first down was on 3rd and 30, and put them at the edge of Walsh's range (would've tried a FG from there in a real game).

Total conversion rate: 6 first downs (2 passing, 2 scrambling, 2 by penalty) on 9 3rd down attempts, with 1 TD and 1 turnover.

...

The KR TD was a low line drive from Walsh, too easy to return. Even then AJ Jefferson was unblocked and still whiffed on a wide open chance to tackle the returner in the hole.

...

Hodges played only 3 snaps. Not sure why. Cole was good, Mauti made a couple of nice tackles in goalline defense before the RB jumped over him for the TD.

...

Jared Allen had the lowest PFF grade in pass rush, got nowhere.

Fusco had the best grade in pass protection. The interior line was generally good even while Kalil and Loadholt were terrible. The starting O-line plus Ellison gave up 10 hurries to go along with the sack-fumble in less than 3 quarters.

Brandon Keith did way better than Kevin Murphy with the 2nd string line. He probably sticks as the backup LT/swing tackle.
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[UMN]


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Josh Robinson appears to be on the same career path as fellow former 3rd round pick CB's Asher Allen and Marcus McCauley... promising rookie year, terrible 2nd year, and then fade away into obscurity.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staley is an elite LT, im not surprised Allen struggled. Huge game for Robison, hopefully that is a sign of things to come this year. It is a contract year after all, might be smart to lock him up now if this is going to be his breakout season.
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Purplexing


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jshowers wrote:
Purplexing wrote:
jshowers wrote:
I have never seen Ponder show he could consistently hit on throws down field last year. When did he show he could do it?

Cuz his career completion percentage on throws down field is 36.9%, while league average is 42.3%.

As exciting as the vertical passing game is, it's not Ponder's strength and doesn't fit our personnel.

Now I'm with you calling for innovation. I want to see a more aggressive offensive game plan. But not one that asks Ponder to throw deep like Stafford does in Detroit's scheme - it just wouldn't work here. We can be more creative without throwing deep more. That's on the coaching staff to figure out.


The difference in the completion percentage for Ponder vs NFL avg is 5.4%. That means 1 less completion in 19 or 20 attempts 'downfield'.

Assume NFL QBs throw 'downfield' about 6 or 7 times a game. If so, then 19 or 20 downfield attempts occur over 3 games.

If the assumptions above hold, Ponder completes 1 less pass 'downfield' over each 3 game period.

Pfft. Insignificant difference.

With better WRs running downfield routes in 2013, Ponder's completions may improve by 1 or 2 over a 3 game period to Average or Slightly Above Average.

IMO, the most important aspect of a QBs performance is their ability to keep the chains moving. Shorter passes accomplish the same thing as deeper passes, albeit requiring more attempts and completions.

Deep passes are important, but over-valued by some analysts.


I agree that getting first downs through the air when needed is the most crucial thing a QB must do. I wasn't arguing that the deep ball is important. I was saying that we don't need the deep ball, or shouldn't need it very much to be effective - it's not Ponder's forte and it doesn't fit with the strengths/weaknesses of our offensive personnel. It needs to be incorporated, but shouldn't be a focal point. Teams can be creative, aggressive, and effective without going shotgun, spread formation, chuck it deep like some on here seem to think. The Seahawks have one of the NFL's most run heavy offenses but are extremely efficient and can make plays through the air because of a true #1 RB and capable back ups, a QB who makes good decisions and has rapport with his WRs, and lastly because the QB plays in a system that lets him use his skills to his advantage. They mix in enough wrinkles like the read option, run/pass options, designed roll outs, and down field crossing routes to keep defenses off guard. They rely on the same principles the Vikings should and do, however, those being the rushing attack, play action, and high percentage passes.


I agree with you.

I tried to add perspective to the difference between 35.9% and 42.3% by translating it into completions. It's roughly 8 downfield completions over 3 games versus 9 for an NFL avg QB, on 21 downfield attempts.

The focus on low YPA and less success throwing downfield is mentioned by those who feel there is a need to find something to criticize Ponder.
I think the scheme, the WRs, and other things caused the low YPA last year. Ponder's YPA might improve this year with the new WRs. But if it didn't, and the Vikings win more games than they lose, that isn't a big concern to me.
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